I always approach with the idea that the Bronze faction is basically bleeding out and they don't really notice the wounds just yet. Yes they very much understand that the status que is screwed. But much less about their health as a organization.

In five years I very much believe the faction is gonna break down to a couple of specific sub groups that actively oppose each other. But I would adjust depending on the table and kind of game I'm running.
 
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The funniest fucking thing is that so much of the Blood Feud is brought on by "Neither side is willing to back down over ancient grudges, and unlike the Dragon Blooded--there are actual ancient monsters on both sides enforcing the feud, as opposed to something that isn't personal for most of them."

Sure, Elders are no longer omnipotent gods that can bend the will of their entire factions behind them with no resistance possible, but they're still highly influential. It's why one of my favorite character concepts that I'll never get to play is a Serenities former bureaucrat who Exalted when he suddenly realized he can Just Leave and nobody can stop him, went on a walkabout, and in true Vegas Style ended up hitched to a cute young Full Moon girl when he came to a few months later.

They're now a sickeningly cute and domestic couple who are steadily making a pocket of the world a nice place to live as their own personal project, while both of them pretend there's no relation to their relative supporting factions, and because everything is too chaotic, nobody can be assed to look too deeply into it when they're not causing trouble.
 
The funniest fucking thing is that so much of the Blood Feud is brought on by "Neither side is willing to back down over ancient grudges, and unlike the Dragon Blooded--there are actual ancient monsters on both sides enforcing the feud, as opposed to something that isn't personal for most of them."
See, the fun thing about a blood feud is that you renew it every once in a while when you run into your ancestral enemies and do what tradition mandates of you.
 
I always approach with the idea that the Bronze faction is basically bleeding out and they don't really notice the wounds just yet. Yes they very much understand that the status que is screwed. But much less about their health as a organization.

In five years I very much believe the faction is gonna break down to a couple of specific sub groups that actively oppose each other. But I would adjust depending on the table and kind of game I'm running.
They still have too much power in heaven for that, I think. Kejak dying is going to do a lot of damage to them and shake things up, but I think path of least resistance, they're not going to just go away on their own anymore than the Realm is.

As currently presented, the path of least resistance there is that the Realm mauls itself for a while before Mnemon or whoever manages to take the throne. Then she has to spend a century or more repairing the damages and solidifying her power and trying to retake rebellious satrapies. Bloodied, reduced, but still the largest single power in the setting.

The Bronze Faction is in a similar position on a much smaller scale, I think. Unless something plot shaped happens, like the Realm falling, or a bunch of Bronze sids dying at once, or the Gold Faction seizing on something to gain a decisive advantage, it seems pretty likely to just keep trucking for the forseeable future. Their position worse, but will with the largest part of the Fellowship behind them.

The greatest forces of imperialism in the setting will not simply defeat themselves.
 
That's when you throw the player-shaped bowling balls at them.

Even without that, there's enough wildcards at play for the possibility to be on the table, so to speak, especially with the Solaroids re-emerging like a jack in the box with a volatile explosive taped to it.
 
The Bronze Faction probably is on its way out. Or at the very least the strong anti-Solar sentiment is going to fade.

One of the gold-faction Sids in the game I've brought up a few times was helping a Solar pretty much entirely because she hated the Realm. And I think that rather encapsulates *why* things are going to change: the Solars' return is something abstract and unclear to most Sids, other than the oldest elders. They don't remember the deliberative beyond stories their masters tell them. Yeah, they know individual Solars are dangerous, but they've never known a time where the Solars were anything but those really powerful dudes that show up once in a blue moon to cause problems.

Lunars are a clear and present threat, so they're also seen as dangerous. But Solars get a pass because they haven't been an issue since the Usurpation, with one or two major exceptions popping up every few years. They were a solved problem for so long that many Sids forgot the sheer scale of the problem.

If the younger sids think 'evil empire of monstrous Exalts', they aren't thinking of Solars and their atrocities. They're thinking of the Realm. Or an Exigent. Or a Hearteater. Or a Lunar dominion. Or hell, get someone from the last couple of years and they may think of Skullstone or Thorns. But Solars? Too individualistic, too easy to dispatch before the last few years.

The funniest fucking thing is that so much of the Blood Feud is brought on by "Neither side is willing to back down over ancient grudges, and unlike the Dragon Blooded--there are actual ancient monsters on both sides enforcing the feud, as opposed to something that isn't personal for most of them."

Sure, Elders are no longer omnipotent gods that can bend the will of their entire factions behind them with no resistance possible, but they're still highly influential. It's why one of my favorite character concepts that I'll never get to play is a Serenities former bureaucrat who Exalted when he suddenly realized he can Just Leave and nobody can stop him, went on a walkabout, and in true Vegas Style ended up hitched to a cute young Full Moon girl when he came to a few months later.

They're now a sickeningly cute and domestic couple who are steadily making a pocket of the world a nice place to live as their own personal project, while both of them pretend there's no relation to their relative supporting factions, and because everything is too chaotic, nobody can be assed to look too deeply into it when they're not causing trouble.

Well, there's also a lot of genuine practical problems like "every record we have of an attempted peace has ended in bloodshed". Or how Sids live in Heaven and Lunars need to stay hidden from Wyld Hunts and the like so it's hard for the two to even get in contact outside of missions of import. Or Arcane Fate making it near impossible to even remember a Sid helped you, let alone which one or what they did that was so influential.

The Lunar/Sid blood feud is really interesting to me because it feels like an actual blood feud (assuming the blood is the carnage and not the familial relations). It's bad for everybody involved, there's little good reason to keep it going beyond 'they'll destroy us if we don't', both sides get that, but they also can't really fix it because of how ingrained it is, particularly at the top.

It goes beyond just the fact that the Sids support/use the Realm and Lunars hate the Realm (tho tbf that's certainly part of it); even if it disappeared tomorrow the two sides would still be at each others' throats.
 
And I think that rather encapsulates *why* things are going to change: the Solars' return is something abstract and unclear to most Sids, other than the oldest elders. They don't remember the deliberative beyond stories their masters tell them. Yeah, they know individual Solars are dangerous, but they've never known a time where the Solars were anything but those really powerful dudes that show up once in a blue moon to cause problems

The Bronze Faction is not defined by Solars, though. It is defined by a philosophy of risk, and connections to the Realm and Immaculacy, and a political network in Heaven, and it's only the second of those which is somewhat indirectly impacted by Solars?

It doesn't matter what younger sids think about Solars. That's an older editions hangover where everything was about anima politics and not human politics. The Bronze Faction is what it is because they are the dominant faction inside the Bureau of Destiny, and they have a clear story they tell people about why they still should be, and they have centuries of resources and seniority and connection.

That can absolutely get overthrown but that requires, like, events and losses and people losing faith in them for much more material reasons then anima distribution rates.
 
I always approach with the idea that the Bronze faction is basically bleeding out and they don't really notice the wounds just yet. Yes they very much understand that the status que is screwed. But much less about their health as a organization.

In five years I very much believe the faction is gonna break down to a couple of specific sub groups that actively oppose each other. But I would adjust depending on the table and kind of game I'm running.
I had this discussion with another friend and I think this is a very 2e vision of the Bronze/Gold faction - in 3e, they are better understood as the status quo party vs the change party. The closest thing to the Bronze 'breaking up' is the Realm Civil War, not Kejak dying, and even then it's just going to be them shifting from maintaining the Realm as a whole to maintaining specific bits of Dragonblood polities and organisations. Will some of these clash? Sure, but that's already the case for the Gold Faction and they haven't stopped existing as a faction.
 
The Bronze Faction is not defined by Solars, though. It is defined by a philosophy of risk, and connections to the Realm and Immaculacy, and a political network in Heaven, and it's only the second of those which is somewhat indirectly impacted by Solars?

Yeah and I also went over the Realm, the Lunars, and their more immediate visibility.
 
Everything else you described has been true for centuries, though? "Sidereals will inevitably side against evil empires" doesn't seem to be true, to begin with, but also it has been a long time of the only potential candidates being non-solars, and yet the Bronze persists, powerfully. Exalt type really seems like the wrong focus here.
 
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The Bronze Faction probably is on its way out. Or at the very least the strong anti-Solar sentiment is going to fade.
I don't think that tracks. The Bronze Faction's ideological position is more or less that Creation is safer and easier to guide and protect with their status quo in place and maintained by the Bureau of Destiny — a strong, centralised Dragon-Blooded hegemony dominating the world, with the Immaculate Order to help productively steer them and to make it easier for Sidereals to predict and quietly direct them. Solars are extremely disruptive to this status quo, more or less everywhere they go. There is not really a compelling reason to stop killing them where possible within this ideological framework. I'm not sure it would be completely impractical to keep doing so either, if the Realm weren't currently on fire for unrelated reasons. That is what the "anti-Solar sentiment" amounts to on a policy level.
 
This is a open call to everyone who sees this. I have a horrible habit of putting small strange dogs in all my tabletop games as a reoccurring bit with one of my groups. If you got any stupid ideas or lore for that, throw them at me.

Are you familiar with Pugmire? That seems like a good source of inspiration for you.
www.realmsofpugmire.com

Realms of Pugmire


You could import something like Pugmire into Exalted by having them as the inhabitants of region that had its inhabitants be heavily mutated by a Wyld surge before it receded. The Dogs would be the descendants of either mutated humans or uplifted animals (they may not know themselves) living in the ruins of a First Age civilization.
 
I'm not sure it would be completely impractical to keep doing so either, if the Realm weren't currently on fire for unrelated reasons.

But everything else currently being on fire is kind of what defines the current context, isn't it? The big problem with the Bronze status quo is that it works fine and sucks for a lot of people until suddenly an outside context problem strikes.

To address your earlier post, the age of tumult is the age of plot-shaped things happening. The lynchpin of the Realm vanishes and civil war looms almost inevitably on the horizon. The Wyld Hunts are disorganized, distracted and diminished. The Solars and their earth-shaking might return to a world that was neither prepared for nor expecting them. Some of them came back wrong with dark powers no one knows anything about. The Lunars seize the opportunity to gnaw at the reeling Realm's heels, probably kick them out of the Caul entirely. A rogue elder Sidereal launches a full-on shadow war against heaven with primordial exaltations he found in the attic, or something. And Kejak's looking like he's likely to die relatively soon, which would be an unwelcome distraction.

The Bronze Faction claims that their ideal status quo is the best option, but it remains to be seen if it's possible for them to even secure it.
 
But everything else currently being on fire is kind of what defines the current context, isn't it? The big problem with the Bronze status quo is that it works fine and sucks for a lot of people until suddenly an outside context problem strikes.

To address your earlier post, the age of tumult is the age of plot-shaped things happening. The lynchpin of the Realm vanishes and civil war looms almost inevitably on the horizon. The Wyld Hunts are disorganized, distracted and diminished. The Solars and their earth-shaking might return to a world that was neither prepared for nor expecting them. Some of them came back wrong with dark powers no one knows anything about. The Lunars seize the opportunity to gnaw at the reeling Realm's heels, probably kick them out of the Caul entirely. A rogue elder Sidereal launches a full-on shadow war against heaven with primordial exaltations he found in the attic, or something. And Kejak's looking like he's likely to die relatively soon, which would be an unwelcome distraction.

The Bronze Faction claims that their ideal status quo is the best option, but it remains to be seen if it's possible for them to even secure it.
I'm not like, interested in arguing that the Bronze Faction is "correct l", obviously? This is, unfortunately, not the same as believing that they will simply go away if left to their own devices. You are correct that the setting is the way that it is to facilitate telling stories and to let the actions of player characters change the world. This is not, however, the same thing as the Realm and the Bronze Faction will go away or start being nice to Solars on their own, absent that story being told.
 
I'm not like, interested in arguing that the Bronze Faction is "correct l", obviously?

I apologize, I wasn't trying to really argue that either.

It's more that, well, with all the chaos I kind of see the situation as a bit more uncertain in general for the Realm and the Bronze Faction, such that I see those hypothetical "paths of least resistance" as being pretty unlikely, all things considered.
 
I apologize, I wasn't trying to really argue that either.

It's more that, well, with all the chaos I kind of see the situation as a bit more uncertain in general for the Realm and the Bronze Faction, such that I see those hypothetical "paths of least resistance" as being pretty unlikely, all things considered.
I'm not sure that the Realm Civil War chapter in Heirs to the Shogunate agrees with you there. It presents a lot of different scenarios from the likely to the extremely remote, but it suggests that if a game's story doesn't change things about the RCW at all, the most likely outcome is just that Mnemon eventually becomes Empress. I will admit that her spending a century trying to get things back to normal is speculative on my part, but that doesn't feel like much of a stretch to me. The Realm falling apart entirely is only one scenario presented among many, and it's not really privileged as an inevitability.
 
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I'm not sure that the Realm Civil War scenario in Heirs to the Shogunate agrees with you there. It presents a lot of different scenarios from the likely to the extremely remote, but it suggests that if a game's story doesn't change things at all, the most likely outcome is just the Mnemon eventually becomes Empress.

Looking at the "likely" Power Bloc arrangements, Mnemon is presented as having the strongest position out of the competitors, true, but she only gets an easy and uncontested win in the "War of Two Sisters" Scenario if neither Cathak nor Sesus declare for a side and the "Wedding and a Murder" scenarios if the assassinations don't derail everything.

If "War of Two Sisters" plays out with Cathak/Sesus involvement, then long and bloody civil war happens that Mnemon isn't guaranteed to win. If "Throne of Debt" happens, then even longer and bloodier civil war that Mnemon isn't guaranteed to win, and might end up pyrrhic even if she does. "War in the West" is a whole can of complication that I'm not equipped to analyze right now, but let's put it down as "Mnemon can win or lose".

I'd say my reading is that Mnemon is always in the running and always has a chance to win, sometimes easily, but more often at significant cost, and sometimes not at all.

...I figure that's a lot of words to basically say you're generally correct though, in that it is the most likely outcome, though I'd argue that the recovery would needs be much more extensive after any period of war that should occur.
 
That feels like it could backfire so hard.

If you ask me, that's a selling point for a setting idea.

I think Keychain of Creation ruled super hard, but there's no getting around how it's a 2e work and a product of the 2e mindset.

Those underlying assumptions were just kind of in the atmosphere back then.

I think it's less of a 2e problem and more of a "using a comedy webcomic as a setting guide" problem.

You shouldn't get your D&D knowledge from OotS, either.

The Bronze Faction probably is on its way out. Or at the very least the strong anti-Solar sentiment is going to fade.

Doesn't that assume the Solars behave well?

If a lukewarm Sidereal meets a Twilight building the Torment Nexus and a Zenith preaching hardline Solar supremacism, you've probably got a hardline Bronzer.
 
Doesn't that assume the Solars behave well?

If a lukewarm Sidereal meets a Twilight building the Torment Nexus and a Zenith preaching hardline Solar supremacism, you've probably got a hardline Bronzer.
What? No, it assumes that the Solars are coming back without organization or support and with their Great Curses relatively weak (both of which are going to be true, at least for the most part). Meaning what they want generally isn't superevil, and even if it is, they don't have the resources and infrastructure necessary to pull it off.

There's no way in hell the Torment Nexus is anything less than a Legendary project that requires a shitton of magical materials and resources. Short of finding a buried metropolis called "Agonizing Atrocity of Ages" or something, your average Solar isn't going to be able to pull it off and certainly not before someone sees it, recognizes it from the hit Scifi novel "DEAR DRAGONS DON'T BUILD THE TORMENT NEXUS" and calls down a Wyld hunt. And sure, the Wyld hunts are scattered and disorganized, but they're not worthless. And with the Realm Civil War heating up most Sids are going to be focused on the Isle, for better or worse.

...

Goddammit I wanna do a "Build the Torment Nexus" character now. Maybe that'll be what gets me into Infernals.
 
Nah, in Exalted the epic can be easily achievable. You can totally have a three-dot Torment Nexus.

Anyway, obviously it'll be a while before modern Solars can go full First Age. But the young ones are totally capable of scaring some Sidereals into Bronze-hood.

As for that character, they can totally just be a Twilight. Or a Daybreak. Maybe even a Dragonblood.
 
I apologize, I wasn't trying to really argue that either.

It's more that, well, with all the chaos I kind of see the situation as a bit more uncertain in general for the Realm and the Bronze Faction, such that I see those hypothetical "paths of least resistance" as being pretty unlikely, all things considered.
I think it's uncertain for the Realm but not for the Bronze Faction, because the Bronze faction is ideological - to support the fastest, most controllable path to stability, which is largely down to big Dragonblooded nations. If the Realm shatters hard enough they can't find anyone to support, they'll move on to support Prasad and Lookshy. The Immaculate Order will outlive the Realm, too, and that's the biggest leverage the Bronze faction has anyway.
 
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