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Unless otherwise, explicitly stated, assume I am never talking about 2e rules.
General Exalted Thread
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Technically, there are also high-level Enemies of Fate like Abyssals, Infernals, and Getimians that also won't forget Sidereals. But they're obviously going to be generally antagonistic towards whatever goals Sidereals will be working towards, so they're generally not going to be 'friend' material. And I would think that Abyssals and Infernals specifically would tend towards being unhinged, TBH.
I still think there's a few Sids who are super into the Scripture of the Lover and Maiden, though. Monsterfucking runs eternal.
I still think there's a few Sids who are super into the Scripture of the Lover and Maiden, though. Monsterfucking runs eternal.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
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I mean, I follow this idea pretty close and do not at the same time. If its more useful gently stretch arcane fate than I just do it, if not than I play with it as worded. I've done it either way a bunch of times.
My genuine advice to other ST's is to get cute with arcane fate if its useful to you. I wanted a consistent byplay between a Sidereal and her underling DB for a longer term kingdom game. So I broke the rule slightly to make it work. Then I did the exact opposite with another Sidereal looming still out of sight.
Do the players ever really notice or care to much? Not really.
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Under the current arcane fate rules, celestial lions aren't immune to arcane fate, nor are any broad categories of god outside of the Bureau of Destiny. Individuals may differ. Note that arcane fate like, does not stop them from knowing about Sidereals plural, though.
Since it's come up a couple times, and since the 2e version was already summarised above, the actual mechanical implementation of arcane fate is:
When you leave a scene with a Sidereal, you immediately forget them. You can roll [Wits + Integrity] against a difficulty of 7 to resist this, taking the value of any intimacies you have for the Sidereal in their person as non-charm dice (as a reminder, that is 2 dice for minor, 3 for major, 4 for defining). STs are encouraged to be generous with similar bonuses for things like knowing a lot about Sidereals and arcane fate, or more circumstantial stuff. When you forget a Sidereal, you forget them entirely. If you later discover evidence that your memories have been tampered with, you can make another roll to remember.
The character types who are immune to arcane fate entirely are: Sidereals, gods of the Bureau of Destiny, Exalted enemies of fate (Abyssals, Infernals, Getimians), and enemies of fate above Essence 5 (Deathlords and similar extremely powerful ghosts, third circle demons etc.). Also, familiars, spirits and the like summoned or bound by an individual Sidereal. Your blood ape is immune to your arcane fate as long as you have him summoned.
What this means is that it is more likely for an Exalt or a powerful god to pass these checks, but also that like... they have to pass the check repeatedly, every time. This means that you can maintain a relationship with an Exalt or whatever more easily than a mortal, but you do still have that worry hanging over you that one day, inevitably, they won't know you anymore. This is something you can deal with, but it is harrowing and emotionally exhausting.
If we take a Dragon-Blood, a very good case scenario of Wits 5, Integrity 5, integrity specialisation and a defining intimacy you're looking at 15 dice, plus three bonus successes from Granite Curtain of Serenity, because it's one of the excellencies that works like that. This is very good odds for any individual roll -- you only need three more successes on 15 dice, after all. It's just like, not a roll they're going to hit every single time, notionally, and most characters aren't optimised to hit arcane fate rolls.
Of course, the game rules are a narrative abstraction to facilitate the kinds of stories that the game wants to tell, and are not a physics system. You should handle this more abstractly a lot of the time, particularly when it's occurring offscreen. The mechanics give you a decent idea of what it's going for, though.
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- He/Him
As an in-universe explanation for a Sidereal's circlemates being immune to the Arcane Fate, would it make sense that Heaven would essentially see them as temps? My thought was that you could say that they're essentially employees of the Bureau of Destiny as long as they are working towards the Sidereal's goals. But this would allow that employees of the Bureau of Destiny who are not Sidereals and not deities would be immune to Arcane Fate, which I don't think everyone in this thread would allow.
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I don't think giving it an in-universe explanation is productive. It's a narrative contrivance for facilitating a game, it's not like, metaphysical, or something you can anticipate ahead of time. It is a happy coincidence for your Sidereal that things are working out this well for the time being.
Also, again, gods of the Bureau of Destiny are immune to arcane fate. Humans or other spirits do not gain immunity just by becoming employed.
Also, again, gods of the Bureau of Destiny are immune to arcane fate. Humans or other spirits do not gain immunity just by becoming employed.
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Wow, that's a LOT harsher. More like the Silence from Dr. Who, or the adamant-caste alchemical anima power, than the sort of subtle, gradual fade-out I'm expecting.
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- She/Her
It is a major tonal shift -- 3e plays arcane fate as more of like, a life-destroying tragedy and source of collective trauma for every Sidereal, which can be very useful sometimes but is first and foremost a curse. The character who is genuinely cool with it is probably really fucking weird, and saying so to other Sidereals may not go over well. Subsequently, Charting Fate's Course depicts this as not something that the Sidereal Host did to itself to avoid accountability for their crimes, it was an unforeseen side effect to hiding the Jade Prison in the Mask. The Solar Purge took too long, the strain of the prison remaining open for years on end eventually broke the constellation and cursed the Sidereals. You can blame the surviving Bronze Faction elders, but it wasn't something they did to themselves on purpose anymore.
It works, generally, as part of the focus on the Fivescore Fellowship as a fellowship. Tightknit, clannish, bonded by trauma and a profoundly strange life experience that no one else can relate to, with the worsening factional divide now threatening that in a way that no one really wants to accept yet.
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
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- Valkyrie, Primus
So... I go back and forth as I'm writing posts sometimes and immediately after writing "99 peers" I thought "well Bureau of Destiny gods are also immune, I should probably say that"
And apparently I just... didn't do that.
=|
That, or you can take on a Resplendent Destiny and let THAT destiny have a relationship.
Which has its own problems, one of the big ones being that the RD can be lost, and you'll be living a lie forever.
So, my Oracle has a Dragon-blooded bodyguard and we tend to assume that she knows who my Oracle is because they're close (like "pretend to be dating when on missions" close), but all the other PCs she just knows vaguely as "Fury's coworkers".
One of the good things about a game like Exalted is that you're allowed to assume that the PCs are just Built Different. It's not impossible to remember individual Sidereals, just difficult (nigh impossible for mortals), and it becomes easier if you're regularly interacting with the Sid. Which, in a Circle, you're undoubtedly going to.
I'm fine with a narrative contrivance (as Gazetteer puts it) that just assumes the PCs are built different and memory erasure doesn't bother them until the story needs it to happen for an arc. Because that's something chargen already assumes to begin with.
Say my Oracle joins up with a mixed circle. The Integrity Supernal takes a full year to start forgetting things about him. The Full Moon isn't as invested into resolve and willpower, but she has decent mental pools, so it takes her a few months. The Fire Aspect is a moron and can barely remember what the Oracle *just said*, let alone who or what he is. These three are able to collectively recall the Oracle by reminding each other of things they've individually forgot, and while he's there, Arcane Fate basically doesn't matter.
Now, if an arc happens where the Oracle is separated from them for a long period, THEN the fact they're not immune to Arcane Fate might become relevant. But for basic interaction's sake, it might be best to just ignore it and assume either that the PCs are forgetting irrelevant details (like the color of his toothbrush or whatever) or they are getting really lucky rolls off-screen. This game is very narrative heavy and forgetting that one of your allies is a Sid midway through breakfast with that Sid isn't interesting more than once or twice.
(iirc there's also a line somewhere about how you'll still *have* your intimacies for the character, you just won't remember why or how you got them and can get your memories back by being reminded of them, so it's not like you're forgetting the Oracle is an ally)
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Extending on Gazetteers remarks/contributing to the current topic, having a tie to a a Sidereal can grant memory recovery rolls on later meetings but they are the same roll you make to resist arcane fate when leaving a Sidereals presence in 3e(It's scene in Exalted Essence and presence in 3e, I'm going off page 141 of charting fates course and page 56 of essence)
Edit: It's also considered a mind altering shaping effect and a memory altering psyche effect for the purposes of charms that defend against those
Edit: It's also considered a mind altering shaping effect and a memory altering psyche effect for the purposes of charms that defend against those
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- Ottawa
Do people actually use 3e Arcane Fate as written?
It always struck me as the kind of rules system that people quietly ignore or else actively rewrite.
The quote's also a pretty good demonstration of what we gave up when did that. Because honestly, it's a really compelling pitch. And 3e struggles to deliver anything like it.
We don't have whole websites dedicated to preserving and broadcasting quotes like that anymore, you know?
There were definite advantages to ditching the Thousand Dooms, but sometimes I miss the fandom reflected in that quote. And I wonder if there might be a middle ground, somewhere, which provides the best of both worlds.
It always struck me as the kind of rules system that people quietly ignore or else actively rewrite.
The quote's also a pretty good demonstration of what we gave up when did that. Because honestly, it's a really compelling pitch. And 3e struggles to deliver anything like it.
We don't have whole websites dedicated to preserving and broadcasting quotes like that anymore, you know?
There were definite advantages to ditching the Thousand Dooms, but sometimes I miss the fandom reflected in that quote. And I wonder if there might be a middle ground, somewhere, which provides the best of both worlds.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
i mean there is visibly, in this thread, a strong argument being made for it as a deliberate and intended keystone of the Sidereal experience, which shapes and is borne out by the background writeups of their social dynamics in Yu-Shan so
yes? obviously?
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Even if you agree that it's a deliberate and intended keystone of the Sidereal existence, and I myself would agree with that, I could see the argument that the Arcane Fate as depicted in 3e is so harsh that actually rolling it is superfluous. After X arbitrary amount of time, it's an autosuccess, maybe depending on the stats of the important NPC in question. The Arcane Fate is in an awkward spot where it's passive, it's harsh, and it works over a relatively long period of time. It's not something your PC chooses to invoke, and whoever is vulnerable to it is going to feel its effects eventually. From this angle, I can see how the roll could feel like busywork.
Yeah, @Omicron's Sidereal in my game has whole flashback sessions about the reality of Arcane Fate and how he's one of those super weirdos for whom it isn't a horrible curse, the Sidereal I play is profoundly isolated even by Sidereal standards, being autistic and weird and isolated and only making bonds with passing flings doomed to forget her 'cause those are safe. It's great character flavor and adds a deep pathos to the whole splat that makes them very compelling.
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- The North
I extend the narrative contrivance of Arcane Fate beyond PCs to the character's own merits, when applicable. The Heavenly Conflagration Corps know their boss, Shadow of A Doubt, pretty well, and remember him as their recruiter and mentor. Similarly, the Heaven's Dragon Shimmering Lotus does not forget her employer, The Hellbender Queen, between scenes.
Nobody at my table was interested in the alternative, which is that their characters spent hella dots on Retainers who can randomly forget who they are.
Nobody at my table was interested in the alternative, which is that their characters spent hella dots on Retainers who can randomly forget who they are.
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I find that players care shockingly little about what the writers intend as the keystone of the X experience. Especially when it's inconvenient.
Kymme's response is the sort of thing I had in mind. Even if the book says that Arcane Fate can remove your backgrounds, I think many players would simply veto that.
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Lot of this sounds like folks quietly reinventing the 2e version.
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- Nova Scotia
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- She/Her
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I actually think that this is a benefit. It's interesting to keep it rolling as-is, because the patchwork nature of who forgets and how and when they do creates a strong emergent narrative, and one that reliably gets back to the intent and purpose of Arcane Fate as a worldbuilding piece.
Sidereals know that they'll usually start getting forgotten, but rolling for it can mean that your allies forget you and your enemies don't. You've got a rough bit coming up: it's the downsides without the upsides. If you're lucky, you get the opposite, where your rivals and foes zone out on thinking that you were ever there, but the ones you're closer to and/or who are doing something useful for you do recall you. Maybe it's something complex, instead: a patchwork of remembered, half-remembered, and totally forgotten people.
That's fertile ground for building scenes out from. This cycle repeating over and over is the thing that pushes Sidereals to be a Fellowship with the only other people in all the world who understand what this is like.
There can be a point where it does basically become uninteresting busywork, you're right, but if we're at that point, then I as the Storyteller would just... stop rolling there. If the Sidereal is leaving the area with their job done to take on a new assignment on the other side of Creation, I don't need to figure out who recalls what, so it tends to be pretty obvious when I gain nothing from rolling and just don't do that.
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Nope. Resonance was the bad sort of punishing, because it discouraged play along lines that would have been interesting. One example: a notable possible effect of 2e Resonance is "a mortal you are close to dies horribly". This is a clear narrative threat, and one that can be dramatic in, say, a story. In practice, 2e Abyssals simply didn't befriend mortals, because, like... they'll die on you. It didn't make playing a tragic antihero difficult but rewarding, because the smart course of action is just to juke around this. Not only did it discourage this sort of tragic effort, but it also meant that "become a Solar" is now basically the only path forward to be a more noble-minded character. The main two options available are "lonely figure seeking redemption" and "unapologetic monster".
By taking out the Resonance effects that they did and introducing the Chivalry of Death, 3e makes Abyssals able to play in spaces that they ostensibly could in 2e but in practice couldn't: the reluctant monster, the dark figure who maintains her own nobility, the advocate for the dead, etc. The same pressures are there, but tweaked in a way that maximizes play experience. I, at least, can't think of any enjoyable 2e Abyssal play experience that is locked off from me in 3e, and Abyssals were one of my favorites going way back to when I first found the gameline fairly early in 2e.
Sidereals, on the other hand, were in need of a different sort of adjustment. 2e Sidereals were too much locked in on "basically all Sidereals act a lot like this, and have only limited ability to pick which faction they like, and are overseen by mysterious forces they have to keep happy". What they needed was different, and so the solution was different.
By emphasizing Arcane Fate as a penalty more, and having fated Sidereals tend to live on Creation more until Exaltation instead of being raised by the Bureau, they allow greater diversity in Sidereals, while also having this tragic curse that pushes the Fellowship to be a Fellowship. You're having a work lunch with someone who believes the most insane religious heresies and is going steady with the God of Unfaithful Lovers as you debate a destiny about which city is going to be attacked by a warlord... and you have every reason to try to push past these problems and try to be collegial.
Different issue, different type of solution. It's not that Limit Breaks should be generally harsher or less punishing between editions, it's about tuning them to enhance the play experience.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Also like... I assume you're thinking of the old scroll of errata treatment of resonance? In which case, well, many years, a new dev team with new outlooks, and Arcane Fate's new rules coinciding with Yu-Shan getting a massive glow-up, in contrast to the old Underworld lore that was regarded as inamously bland even then. Arcane Fate encouraging you to make relationships in the Bureau of Destiny isn't nearly so onerous to play with when the Bureau of Destiny is a cool milieu to play, but when Resonance pushes you to stick to the 2e Underworld so much...
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I don't think it was odd that two different Exalt types, which have different themes and playstyles, and different problems associated with them, were treated differently mechanically.
The broad arc of what 3e is doing with the different Exalt types is, more or less, tying to make engaging with their core modes of play feel fun and approachable. So a lot of the elements that made doing that feel really miserable or pointless or unwieldy have been toned down or reframed. The Scarlet Dynasty, the Bureau of Destiny, the Deathlords etc.
Some of the issues that Sidereals have had in the past have been a lack of sympathy from the player base and a perception that the Bureau of Destiny is so miserable and corrupt that there's no point in engaging with it. The tragedy of arcane fate helps to invite people to care about them and their relationships and their struggles. And the 3e take on the Bureau is basically trying to frame it less in terms of like, a corrupt nest of vipers who all want to manipulate you and stab you in the back, and more like... The Fivescore Fellowship is genuinely tight knit and have every incentive to find ways to get along or at least to not burn bridges with each other, even with the Sidereals they don't like.
This coincides with the material stressing that working for the Bureau comes with like, staggering levels of wealth and luxury, while not positing as that old quote did that they have no way to enjoy it.
Technically, there are also high-level Enemies of Fate like Abyssals, Infernals, and Getimians that also won't forget Sidereals. But they're obviously going to be generally antagonistic towards whatever goals Sidereals will be working towards, so they're generally not going to be 'friend' material. And I would think that Abyssals and Infernals specifically would tend towards being unhinged, TBH.
I still think there's a few Sids who are super into the Scripture of the Lover and Maiden, though. Monsterfucking runs eternal.
Add all this to Omicron's "it might actually be healthier to hit it off with that boy from the theatre district for a brief passionate fling" and you can come to the conclusion that the healthiest and most equal relationships a Sidereal can pursue are going to be with the enemies of Creation.