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General Exalted Thread

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2e and 3e emphasized very different themes and portrayed Creation in a different light.

2e put a lot of weight on gonzo high-powered world-shaking shenanigans. It was friendly to white-room plans and the pursuit of omnipotence. And it encouraged players to seek grand solutions to all problems everywhere forever.

3e tries to be more down-to-earth, and is set up to make frictionless-vacuum thinking a lot less effective. It removed pretty much all of the Essence 6+ magic and the reality-unravelling stuff. It encourages PCs to care more about the square mile they're in and less about the cosmos as a whole.

Also, Devil Tigers and Yozi reform are distinct 2e-isms.

So your plan fits nicely into 2e and very poorly into 3e.

I'm not sure how I feel about 3e's change in emphasis, to be honest. 3e is a much better-made game, but that doesn't mean its creative goals were the right ones.
 
I got Erembour comm'd. I was never really happy with 1e and 2e deception of her overall. So I got something new.
 
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Sanctaphrax said:
2e and 3e emphasized very different themes and portrayed Creation in a different light.

2e put a lot of weight on gonzo high-powered world-shaking shenanigans. It was friendly to white-room plans and the pursuit of omnipotence. And it encouraged players to seek grand solutions to all problems everywhere forever.

3e tries to be more down-to-earth, and is set up to make frictionless-vacuum thinking a lot less effective. It removed pretty much all of the Essence 6+ magic and the reality-unravelling stuff. It encourages PCs to care more about the square mile they're in and less about the cosmos as a whole.

Also, Devil Tigers and Yozi reform are distinct 2e-isms.

So your plan fits nicely into 2e and very poorly into 3e.

I'm not sure how I feel about 3e's change in emphasis, to be honest. 3e is a much better-made game, but that doesn't mean its creative goals were the right ones.
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I just didn't give a single shit about the dumb "what if I could punch the Shintai" shit 2e introduced, along with all the shit that read like the authors were trying to write a novel instead of a game, so I'm glad.
 
Shinma-punching was really a lot less prominent in the books than in the online discussions, even in 2e. There were very few words dedicated to the idea.

That's one reason I kinda miss it; when a small corner of the game inspires all sorts of ideas and excitement, it seems a shame to lose it. The shinmaic stuff "cost" very little, writing-wise, and had a great impact.
 
elfgames said:
Assuming you don't view the way it shapes discussion in fan communities as a cost in and of itself.
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I think that was less due to the shinma being included and more a result of the game's failure to implement usable mid-level play. Once you're bored with punching bandits, what's next? Well, you can be a god-king! Except there aren't any solid rules for what being a king involves, so just go punch some god-bandits instead.
 
Ages ago, I sketched out three ideas for Sidereal Martial Arts styles. Never did anything with them because writing an SMA is a ton of work for essentially no reward at all.

Figure I might as well post the plans I had. Y'all might enjoy them.

Golden Throne of Justice Style said:
A style exploring the theme of justice. Pre-form Charms would be pretty straightforwardly heroic, giving you light-themed powers and bonuses against evil people. Mostly a straightforward combat style with Solar themes and a few revenge-themed effects for hitting back when you get hit. Evil would be defined by the sincere convictions of the martial artist. Might or might not interact with Holy.

The form Charm would create a giant flying golden chair. Instead of punching and kicking, you sit on the chair and shoot laser beams at your opponents. Therefore you can fly, can't be knocked down or back, get a free ranged attack, etc. Can't dodge, though.

Post-form the style gets more cynical. Notable post-form Charms include They Deserve This, which mentally compels people not to interfere when you attack someone, and You Deserve This, which compels people not to defend themselves. I also wanted to see a strike that scars people permanently, and makes everyone who sees the scar hate the scarred person. Probably also a giant golden explosion that only hurts people that you think deserve it.

The capstone gives you total control over your own sense of justice. You can rearrange your most deeply-held moral convictions more or less at will.

First verse of the sutra would talk about the righteous deeds of the maiden. Second verse would have her talk up her own goodness and point out that everyone who'd deny it is dead.
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Ashen Shroud of Terror Style said:
A style exploring the theme of fear. The pre-form Charms would be split into two branches, one letting you use fear as a weapon and one helping you fight in a cowardly-seeming hit-and-run-and-hide kinda way. Basically a style for terrorists. Very effective against cowards and battle groups.

Not sure what the Form would do, but it should activate instantly and for free when you try and fail to flee a fight. Being cornered turns fear into strength, after all.

Post-form the style starts to reflect on the positive aspects of fear. You start to develop a keen danger sense, can use fear as motivation, and learn to negate the drawbacks of fear. There are also a couple of extremely powerful fear-based attacks here, but they're in some ways nicer than the pre-form ones; surviving them makes a character stronger and perhaps mentally healthier.

Capstone would render you permanently in tune with your own fear, making you immune to any undesirable effects of fear without losing access to the positive effects.

First verse of the sutra would talk about the maiden's fear and cowardice. Second verse would talk about how this actually worked out great for her, and how she ended up much better off than the brave did.
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Crimson (Cerulean) Flames of Rage Style said:
A style exploring the theme of anger. Pre-form is a straightforward berserker style. Much like Infernal Monster, actually. Also a bit like that weird Solar Resistance branch. There'd be some elemental fire stuff that doesn't fit into either, though.

The Form Charm would be a double-edged sword; it'd make you substantially stronger at the cost of your self-control.

Post-form the style, like Ashen Shroud of Terror, starts to reflect on the positive aspects of its emotion. The style becomes team-oriented, full of leadership-y effects and mental defense stuff. Idea being that anger is good for society; it's the threat of others' anger that keeps the worst people in check, and it's often anger that motivates people to change the world for the better.

The style would have two capstones, one widely known and one secret. The known one would just be a gigantic flaming explosion. Using it would vent your rage completely, rendering you weirdly calm for a while. The secret one would turn the style's fire blue, representing a turn from Battles to Serenity. It'd grant you inner peace and tranquility through understanding and acceptance of your own fury; mechanically speaking, it'd strip the drawbacks from the Form and a few other Charms.

First verse of the sutra is about what you'd expect. Second verse gets philosophical.
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strange_person said:
I think that was less due to the shinma being included and more a result of the game's failure to implement usable mid-level play. Once you're bored with punching bandits, what's next? Well, you can be a god-king! Except there aren't any solid rules for what being a king involves, so just go punch some god-bandits instead.
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Of course, 3e has the same fundamental problems, what with the complete lack of actual systems for almost anything but combat and personal social influence.
 
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Roadie said:
Of course, 3e has the same fundamental problems, what with the complete lack of actual systems for almost anything but combat and personal social influence.
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I'm still shaking my head at Holden's (or maybe it was Morke?) rationalization for not having a bureaucracy system, which was "Oh if we have this, you'll never interact directly with NPCs!"
 
SunnySprings said:
I'm still shaking my head at Holden's (or maybe it was Morke?) rationalization for not having a bureaucracy system, which was "Oh if we have this, you'll never interact directly with NPCs!"
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I seem to remember a post by Stephen Lea Sheppard to the effect of 'That scene from Hamilton where they're debating currency just disappears if we let you just roll dice for it'. That might be what you're thinking of?
 
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SerGregness said:
I seem to remember a post by Stephen Lea Sheppard to the effect of 'That scene from Hamilton where they're debating currency just disappears if we let you just roll dice for it'. That might be what you're thinking of?
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Oh, well, if we can reenact the scene from the most embarrassing Broadway musical around, I guess it's alright that there's no rules for managing and running a kingdom.
 
To be pretty frank - while I obviously don't agree with the statement I am pretty sympathetic to it - I have seen several groups play using "bureaucracy systems" that just abstract the entire state down into a bunch of values and almost without fail, they transform the game into a bad RTS without graphics. The entire game zooms out and loses focus completely and it becomes a question of rolling state values against other state values and they are often miserably incapable of actually dealing with the question of "why don't I just go there and do it myself? I'm an Exalt, lol".

Obviously, I think this is just because those systems are bad but given Masters of Jade was widely praised as The Good Bureaucracy System while doing exactly that, and I bet people were expecting something like Masters of Jade for 3e, then it makes sense to think that this is the kind of system SLS was rebuking when he wrote that.
 
Oh yeah another commission I got not to long ago from @Renu

This character was more of a thought experiment on how a Lore sup with a specialty in wyld might look. Essentially she and her tribe lived on the edge of a border marsh. And its left their mark upon them over the centuries. After a large invasion by Fey that led to her exalting. She needed to devise a way to keep the wyld from completely consuming the city. Noticing that her exaltation gave her some way to cancel out the wyld. She with assistance from a dragon blooded sorcerer. Ripped out her own heart, coated it on Orichalcum. And turned it into a artifact that 'soaks' up the wyld around her and purifies it in her body like a cauldron of sorts. Can't really see process with her clothes on. (I do have art of that as well, and at most its light boobs. But I'm not risking it.) Think of the rest of her body looking like dyed see through glass with visible bones. And a glowing twisting void centered where her heart is.

Wanted 'astute businesswoman' and Renu nailed it on the head here.

 
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Right now I'm leaning towards boiling down day-to-day governance to a single roll made once a month or so. No bells and whistles, just a roll. Give each organization a difficulty reflecting how large and chaotic it is, and let the leader roll against that difficulty if they spend at least a few hours a day on the job.

Get 5+ successes over the difficulty, and you can assume your character has done the boring stuff as well as it can realistically be done. Fail the roll, and you end up with significant problems that you need to solve. Barely pass, and your organization just functions.

There does need to be some kind of process for turning "21 dice to manage bureaucracies" into "the tax collectors of your city are capable and incorruptible" but it should be as frictionless as possible so that we can focus on interesting problems like "the peasants are reluctant to change their religion to You-Ism" and "your most powerful NPC pseudo-subordinate despises you personally".

Also, most large-scale projects shouldn't involve a roll to complete them. When bridge builders are sent to build a bridge, the bridge very reliably gets built. Sometimes late and over budget, but it gets built.

Yes, I know I posted a much more convoluted system a while back. In retrospect I think all that extra stuff was unnecessary.
 
ManusDomini said:
To be pretty frank - while I obviously don't agree with the statement I am pretty sympathetic to it - I have seen several groups play using "bureaucracy systems" that just abstract the entire state down into a bunch of values and almost without fail, they transform the game into a bad RTS without graphics. The entire game zooms out and loses focus completely and it becomes a question of rolling state values against other state values and they are often miserably incapable of actually dealing with the question of "why don't I just go there and do it myself? I'm an Exalt, lol".
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Hence why my own concept for such a system builds on crafting and overland travel, rather than clashes of nationalistic amoebas. Fundamental action in personal combat is "pointy end goes in the bad man," then mass combat zooms out to model a meeting between armies, but you can zoom right back in to personal scale by simply challenging an enemy champion to a duel. Bureaucracy and socialize rules need equivalently central mechanics for refocusing on scenes about actual people. Court-scale DV equivalent, as I'm imagining it, corresponds to ability to evade unwanted face-to-face encounters - can't "just go there" until you know exactly where the real heart of the action is. 1024 The Unbanished Truth - Giant in the Playground Games Iconic anima flare and Blasphemy-keyword magic would be the strategic equivalents of letting your guard down due to personal-scale surprise or incapacity.

As for "solve it myself..." there usually aren't nearly enough hours in the day for any one person to do literally everything. Whole point of leading an organization is being able to delegate. First edition had mechanics for threshold successes being split between speed and quality, vestigial elements of which mostly showed up in the astrology chapter of MoEP: Sidereals. Gotta build a broader framework to make that sort of choice meaningful, and convey the scope of organizational assets. Craftsman Needs No Tools makes it possible to do the work of a dozen masterful mortals, excellency and other magic might turn that into a few hundred, but what if the challenge at hand demands the equivalent effort of thousands? Millions? Should be possible for things to scale up organically while also naturally shifting the kind of work it makes sense for you to spend most of your time doing, Girl Genius But for that to happen, there needs to be proper support for those other types of work. Where do all the organization stats come from? How does somebody go about building a group of elite commandos, without Training magic?

Another thing such a system needs is robust, context-sensitive procedural content generation. If an ST only brings in new complications from the scheming of established antagonists and/or in service to a broader pre-scripted plot, sooner or later verisimilitude will suffer as a result. Not everybody's clever enough to juggle all that without even an explicit procedure for how to do so. If, empirically, that stranger begging hospitality for the night turns out to be a god (or something) in disguise more than half the time, it becomes predictable enough to be kind of a crappy cover story!
 
strange_person said:
Another thing such a system needs is robust, context-sensitive procedural content generation. If an ST only brings in new complications from the scheming of established antagonists and/or in service to a broader pre-scripted plot, sooner or later verisimilitude will suffer as a result. Not everybody's clever enough to juggle all that without even an explicit procedure for how to do so. If, empirically, that stranger begging hospitality for the night turns out to be a god (or something) in disguise more than half the time, it becomes predictable enough to be kind of a crappy cover story!
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If the ST has legitimately no ideas for telling a compelling story on the scale of the PCs running a country, then maybe a better course of action would be to not make your game about that in the first place instead of leaping to "there should be a system to automate this so they don't have to".
 
Gazetteer said:
If the ST has legitimately no ideas for telling a compelling story on the scale of the PCs running a country, then maybe a better course of action would be to not make your game about that in the first place instead of leaping to "there should be a system to automate this so they don't have to".
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Big difference between tools and documentation to make a job easier vs. full automation to make human effort unnecessary. Current system is a bit like advertising a rollercoaster, selling tickets to a disjointed pile of welding supplies and curvilinear scrap metal, then when anyone lacks the willingness or engineering skill to assemble a coherent political landscape themselves, accusing them of violating the posted "must be this tall to ride" ordinance.
 
strange_person said:
Big difference between tools and documentation to make a job easier vs. full automation to make human effort unnecessary. Current system is a bit like advertising a rollercoaster, selling tickets to a disjointed pile of welding supplies and curvilinear scrap metal, then when anyone lacks the willingness or engineering skill to assemble a coherent political landscape themselves, accusing them of violating the posted "must be this tall to ride" ordinance.
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If you can't come up with any decent plots related to rulership or administration, then have the campaign you're running focus on different topics. It's not like Exalted revolves solely around managing a fiefdom or the exigencies of crop rotations.
 
strange_person said:
Big difference between tools and documentation to make a job easier vs. full automation to make human effort unnecessary. Current system is a bit like advertising a rollercoaster, selling tickets to a disjointed pile of welding supplies and curvilinear scrap metal, then when anyone lacks the willingness or engineering skill to assemble a coherent political landscape themselves, accusing them of violating the posted "must be this tall to ride" ordinance.
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I think a significant problem with your analogy is that coherent political landscapes don't really run themselves. I don't think the kind of person who doesn't have the know-how to assemble a coherent political landscape can run a pre-packaged one for very long in a way that actually stays coherent.

(Incidentally, I think people around these parts are expecting systems to solve problems they probably can't solve terribly well. I've never seen an "investigation system" in a game that wouldn't have been vastly improved by replacing it with a robust GM advice section on how to run engaging mysteries; similarly, I don't expect to ever see a "bureaucracy system" that wouldn't be vastly improved by tearing it out and replacing it with a robust GM advice section on discussing player expectations and what makes for a good story.)
 
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