General Exalted Thread

[Dif]

I see no problem with four hundred disorganized Exalts losing members and experience while being huntred across millenia losing to an empire led by ten thousand Exalts who also have specialized themselves in the systematic extermination of Lunars.

Click to shrink...

The Dynasty specialized themselves socially with military units, formalized Charms, and established institutions, while the Lunars rebuilt their Exaltation around this conflict. This is not a battle royale fistfight between all DBs and all Lunars on a featureless plain, its saying that all the advantages in all the areas of expertise Lunars have held even after aggressively optimizing themselves in a nonsensical plot way still only amount to "chipping away" at the conflict with no end in sight before the Empress' disappearance. That's patently absurd on its face, and if even after all that the Lunars have Not equalized the playing field at all, then how in god's name are they presented as some sort of narrative foil? They are losing this fight for the same reason the Caul looks like a losing fight, because Little Gain is effectively No Gain when you're trying to establish the stakes of a story. It gives lie that the Lunars could have made any sizable progress whatsoever, making the whole "you can make Big Changes" party-line of Exalted into a sham.

People do not Want to play "the guy who will get things done Eventually, unless sudden unexpected and uncontrollable circumstances permit." So making the entire history of the Lunars be the tortoise to the Realm's hare strikes a dull note with me.

And that's without getting into how long these time-frames Actually are. If each one of say, 200 loyalist Lunars kills just one DB an average of every two years across all the varied battles that have gone on during the 700ish reign of the Scarlet Empire, that's still a casualty rate of 70,000 Exalts, and somehow they are not improving things more than incrementally. That's even assuming every one of those Lunars totally dies in the attempt, because DBs have a much longer lead-time to bring new fighters to the front lines. Projecting this "stalemate" across absurdly long periods of time only serves to make it more ridiculous and narratively untenable when you hammer out details like this, that even killing one of the enemy on a semi-regular basis introduces an Outlandishly incongruent element to the entire affair. It makes you ask what the hell the Lunars are doing if killing a bare-minimum of DBs hasn't been working in their favor, why this is all going so poorly for them, and how have they not got their shit together somehow in light of all this to make this conflict feel like more of a conflict and not just tripping over themselves in an attempt to stay relevant.

If the Realm had been having more trouble controlling the coastal satrapies, I could see it. If the Legions were making costly pushes regularly into the Threshold and coming back with bloodied noses I could see it. If the Lunars were presented as a legitimate Obstacle to the Realm in any way rather than just an annoyance with ambitious hopes, I could see it, and it would justify thinking that all those centuries of prep time spent was possibly leading up into something more, and not just a steadfast refusal of the writers to characterize the Lunars as being unable to do Anything meaningful in the setting yet again.

Lunars always lose.

 

[notanautomaton]

The Dynasty specialized themselves socially with military units, formalized Charms, and established institutions, while the Lunars rebuilt their Exaltation around this conflict. This is not a battle royale fistfight between all DBs and all Lunars on a featureless plain, its saying that all the advantages in all the areas of expertise Lunars have held even after aggressively optimizing themselves in a nonsensical plot way still only amount to "chipping away" at the conflict with no end in sight before the Empress' disappearance. That's patently absurd on its face, and if even after all that the Lunars have Not equalized the playing field at all, then how in god's name are they presented as some sort of narrative foil? They are losing this fight for the same reason the Caul looks like a losing fight, because Little Gain is effectively No Gain when you're trying to establish the stakes of a story. It gives lie that the Lunars could have made any sizable progress whatsoever, making the whole "you can make Big Changes" party-line of Exalted into a sham.

People do not Want to play "the guy who will get things done Eventually, unless sudden unexpected and uncontrollable circumstances permit." So making the entire history of the Lunars be the tortoise to the Realm's hare strikes a dull note with me.

And that's without getting into how long these time-frames Actually are. If each one of say, 200 loyalist Lunars kills just one DB an average of every two years across all the varied battles that have gone on during the 700ish reign of the Scarlet Empire, that's still a casualty rate of 70,000 Exalts, and somehow they are not improving things more than incrementally. That's even assuming every one of those Lunars totally dies in the attempt, because DBs have a much longer lead-time to bring new fighters to the front lines. Projecting this "stalemate" across absurdly long periods of time only serves to make it more ridiculous and narratively untenable when you hammer out details like this, that even killing one of the enemy on a semi-regular basis introduces an Outlandishly incongruent element to the entire affair. It makes you ask what the hell the Lunars are doing if killing a bare-minimum of DBs hasn't been working in their favor, why this is all going so poorly for them, and how have they not got their shit together somehow in light of all this to make this conflict feel like more of a conflict and not just tripping over themselves in an attempt to stay relevant.

If the Realm had been having more trouble controlling the coastal satrapies, I could see it. If the Legions were making costly pushes regularly into the Threshold and coming back with bloodied noses I could see it. If the Lunars were presented as a legitimate Obstacle to the Realm in any way rather than just an annoyance with ambitious hopes, I could see it, and it would justify thinking that all those centuries of prep time spent was possibly leading up into something more, and not just a steadfast refusal of the writers to characterize the Lunars as being unable to do Anything meaningful in the setting yet again.

Lunars always lose.

Click to shrink...

Also, the Realm's position looks pretty much the same as in 2e, and then says that this is because of Lunars being awesome. It can be an amazing feat out of legends for Lunars, and still seem pathetic because it looks like nothing's changed.

 

[Kaiya]

The Dynasty specialized themselves socially with military units, formalized Charms, and established institutions, while the Lunars rebuilt their Exaltation around this conflict. This is not a battle royale fistfight between all DBs and all Lunars on a featureless plain, its saying that all the advantages in all the areas of expertise Lunars have held even after aggressively optimizing themselves in a nonsensical plot way still only amount to "chipping away" at the conflict with no end in sight before the Empress' disappearance. That's patently absurd on its face, and if even after all that the Lunars have Not equalized the playing field at all, then how in god's name are they presented as some sort of narrative foil? They are losing this fight for the same reason the Caul looks like a losing fight, because Little Gain is effectively No Gain when you're trying to establish the stakes of a story. It gives lie that the Lunars could have made any sizable progress whatsoever, making the whole "you can make Big Changes" party-line of Exalted into a sham.

People do not Want to play "the guy who will get things done Eventually, unless sudden unexpected and uncontrollable circumstances permit." So making the entire history of the Lunars be the tortoise to the Realm's hare strikes a dull note with me.

And that's without getting into how long these time-frames Actually are. If each one of say, 200 loyalist Lunars kills just one DB an average of every two years across all the varied battles that have gone on during the 700ish reign of the Scarlet Empire, that's still a casualty rate of 70,000 Exalts, and somehow they are not improving things more than incrementally. That's even assuming every one of those Lunars totally dies in the attempt, because DBs have a much longer lead-time to bring new fighters to the front lines. Projecting this "stalemate" across absurdly long periods of time only serves to make it more ridiculous and narratively untenable when you hammer out details like this, that even killing one of the enemy on a semi-regular basis introduces an Outlandishly incongruent element to the entire affair. It makes you ask what the hell the Lunars are doing if killing a bare-minimum of DBs hasn't been working in their favor, why this is all going so poorly for them, and how have they not got their shit together somehow in light of all this to make this conflict feel like more of a conflict and not just tripping over themselves in an attempt to stay relevant.

If the Realm had been having more trouble controlling the coastal satrapies, I could see it. If the Legions were making costly pushes regularly into the Threshold and coming back with bloodied noses I could see it. If the Lunars were presented as a legitimate Obstacle to the Realm in any way rather than just an annoyance with ambitious hopes, I could see it, and it would justify thinking that all those centuries of prep time spent was possibly leading up into something more, and not just a steadfast refusal of the writers to characterize the Lunars as being unable to do Anything meaningful in the setting yet again.

Lunars always lose.

Click to shrink...

None of this reads to me like an accurate, logical extrapolation of Lunars versus Dragonblooded, and I don't find it remotely persuasive that most, or even really some fans are going to have this reaction to Lunars. I think you're also making a ton of wild assumptions without any Ex3 lorebooks based on a preview and knowledge from how 2e fucked shit up, so like, maybe quit with the doomsaying until Fangs at the Gate is actually out and there is a book to look at and see what they've done.

 

[Deations]

The Dynasty specialized themselves socially with military units, formalized Charms, and established institutions, while the Lunars rebuilt their Exaltation around this conflict. This is not a battle royale fistfight between all DBs and all Lunars on a featureless plain, its saying that all the advantages in all the areas of expertise Lunars have held even after aggressively optimizing themselves in a nonsensical plot way still only amount to "chipping away" at the conflict with no end in sight before the Empress' disappearance. That's patently absurd on its face, and if even after all that the Lunars have Not equalized the playing field at all, then how in god's name are they presented as some sort of narrative foil? They are losing this fight for the same reason the Caul looks like a losing fight, because Little Gain is effectively No Gain when you're trying to establish the stakes of a story. It gives lie that the Lunars could have made any sizable progress whatsoever, making the whole "you can make Big Changes" party-line of Exalted into a sham.

Click to shrink...

My dude the battle for the Caul is entirely an attempt to get the Realm to commit its military forces and resources to a point that is distant from the Blessed Isle, let them get a foothold and dig themselves too deep, and then eat them. It's not subtext you're missing, because it is very clearly the actual text:

The city was clearly defined below her, a brightly lit figure inside its formal walls. Outside the walls were the occa- sional light crystals and flaring torches of outriders, but otherwise, darkness. She exulted at the sight, knowing the vast expenditures of resources that must be required for the Realm to keep that little chunk of light burning so terribly far from home, with no ability to raise its own food or supply its own merchandise. When Faxai fell, the Caul would belong utterly to the Lunar Exalted.

...

"How long until they're gone?"
"No more than five years, we think."

Click to shrink...

The reason the Realm does not extend from pole to pole to Creation is specifically due to the Lunars, because the Realm is not a conventional Empire. It is not Rome. It is not Persia. It's something far more dangerous.

And that's without getting into how long these time-frames Actually are. If each one of say, 200 loyalist Lunars kills just one DB an average of every two years across all the varied battles that have gone on during the 700ish reign of the Scarlet Empire, that's still a casualty rate of 70,000 Exalts, and somehow they are not improving things more than incrementally. That's even assuming every one of those Lunars totally dies in the attempt, because DBs have a much longer lead-time to bring new fighters to the front lines. Projecting this "stalemate" across absurdly long periods of time only serves to make it more ridiculous and narratively untenable when you hammer out details like this, that even killing one of the enemy on a semi-regular basis introduces an Outlandishly incongruent element to the entire affair. It makes you ask what the hell the Lunars are doing if killing a bare-minimum of DBs hasn't been working in their favor, why this is all going so poorly for them, and how have they not got their shit together somehow in light of all this to make this conflict feel like more of a conflict and not just tripping over themselves in an attempt to stay relevant.

Click to shrink...

You do understand that marriage and children are a very significant part of Dragonblooded thematics, right? That the number of Dragonblooded are not static over this entire 700 year period and that a rate of attrition that slow will never actually overcome birth-rates in the Great Houses, right?

In twenty years, by your reckoning, an average Lunar will have killed ten Dragonblooded. Not only is that death absurdly disproportional (an average of a hundred dragonblooded dying per year is really absurd), and given that there are even odds that a Lunar will get killed by a Wyld Hunt instead, in those twenty years, a hell of a lot more dynasts will be born, raised, and Exalted. The Lunars can kill a HELL of a lot more Dragonblooded before they have a visible impact on the population demographics of the Great Houses. Assuming a birth rate comparable to say, the Phillipines with 25 births per thousand people in a year, we have a very conservative estimate of 250 births per ten thousand dynasts yearly. Assuming only half of them Exalt, that's still a net gain of 25 Dragonblooded a year for the hundred killed annually. And it's going to be a hell of a lot more births than that, if only because in the Scarlet Empire procreation is all but mandatory.

You've read Dragonblooded fluff at least once, right? Because their Exaltations are heritable and they always attempt to have a hell of a lot of children over their long lives. I mention this because I'm no longer certain that you're aware of this

If the Realm had been having more trouble controlling the coastal satrapies, I could see it. If the Legions were making costly pushes regularly into the Threshold and coming back with bloodied noses I could see it. If the Lunars were presented as a legitimate Obstacle to the Realm in any way rather than just an annoyance with ambitious hopes, I could see it, and it would justify thinking that all those centuries of prep time spent was possibly leading up into something more, and not just a steadfast refusal of the writers to characterize the Lunars as being unable to do Anything meaningful in the setting yet again.

Click to shrink...

All of this is already the case? This isn't subtext, they make it very, very clear that the Lunars are the main reason the Realm is stymied in its expansion, doesn't encompass all of Creation, and isn't loaded to the gills with First Age Relics that they could exploit with WMDs. The Realm with the Lunars is a Bronze Age Empire with more than a few magical tricks. The Realm sans the Lunars is not a superpower but an absolute hyperpower able to run ham over all of Creation and place its jade boots into the collective faces of the rest of mankind. Those aren't my words, those are Eric Minton's exact words, and I don't know if this is all just the result of some very highly selective reading.

Also, the Realm's position looks pretty much the same as in 2e, and then says that this is because of Lunars being awesome. It can be an amazing feat out of legends for Lunars, and still seem pathetic because it looks like nothing's changed.

Click to shrink...

It's because the Realm itself is far less pathetic this edition, narratively. Like, this is the line, literally.

"Centuries of Pact efforts diminished the Realm from unchallengeable hyperpower to "merely" Creation's sole superpower. This was only the beginning. Running the Realm to ground might take centuries more and require enormous, persistent effort, but the Pact's elders felt confident that their strategy was the best path to victory."

...

"Warstriders, First Age manses, and other irreplaceable relics have been sabotaged or destroyed outright, leaving only a small fraction of their previous number in Realm and Lookshyan hands."

Click to shrink...

It's not something subtle here, it's the main reason the Scarlet Dynasty and Lookshy have only a handful of WMDs instead of a massive stockpile of them.

 

[Indivisible]

Also, the Realm's position looks pretty much the same as in 2e, and then says that this is because of Lunars being awesome. It can be an amazing feat out of legends for Lunars, and still seem pathetic because it looks like nothing's changed.

Click to shrink...

It reminds of 2e, when suddenly all of these societies that existed in 1e were secretly because of the Thousand Streams River project.

 

[Deations]

It reminds of 2e, when suddenly all of these societies that existed in 1e were secretly because of the Thousand Streams River project.

Click to shrink...

I disagree. It makes the Realm more credible, not less, in 3E. They are diminished only through consistent effort by enemies. By contrast 2E did the opposite by DIMINISHING existing cultures, as all the TSR did was make the Delzahni or the Haslanti hapless NPCs who needed the guiding hand of a Lunar Exalt to have a successful society and do things like invent the crossbow.

If nothing else, it would make sense for the Realm to have a great deal of Shogunate infrastructure left over even after the Balorian Crusade, because the Blessed Isle was not just the heart of Creation but the heart of the Shogunate too. That's where they found the Sword of Creation, after all.

 

[Unbanshee]

"Why can't Lunars take the shape and power of supernatural beings in 3e?"

Well, maybe because they want Lunars to focus on their own magic and charms, instead of bolting on whatever they can beg, borrow or steal from other being types? I'd bet a dollar that there's gonna be actual charms in this edition that let Lunars disguise themselves as things that aren't "natural", and if there aren't, then it's not a huge problem to make them. I get the impression that the Devs don't want Lunars to whip out the magic of other supernatural beings when they get into a fight, they want them to whip out their OWN fite powars. Good = turn into a bear, bite someone's face off! Bad = Turn into Ahlat and stab a fool.

Is is memetically impossible for the topic of Lunars to come up without everyone involved getting into an argument? Do you get stunt bonuses IC while using Foul Air of Argument Technique if you make a lunar thread?

 

[Shyft]

To build on the narrative point here re Lunars and agency.
I was watching a video and it underscored something about Worldbuilding technique that I think is really true for Exalted/Lunars; a lot of poorly done games (Bethesda) have worldbuilding and backstory that tell you about things that Happened. Cool Shit that Exists but you'll never get to see or do yourself. Or stuff you get to watch but not do yourself.

So... The more advantageous angle I feel, as a writer, is that you want to A: show a continuity of effort, of cause/effect throughout the history of the setting, and then show how that connects to what the Lunars (and the DBs, and the Sids, as this applies to Everyone) are doing Presently.

More seriously- the history of the game should help inform the players of what they can do in the present and the future.

----

minor tangent to all the specific Realm/Lunar stuff:

The Caul is dumb not because it's the Caul, but because it is a single example. Beyond that all of this vaunted fluff describing the Realm being eaten away at the edges by the Lunars is vague. It doesn't tell me how the Lunars did it. I don't need an itemized list of steps, mind, but I don't see any thing like 'This lunar used economic warfare' or 'this confederation of gods with lunar patrons did such and such'. It's empty.

I want continuity, I want process, I want history, not arbitrary declaration of 'This is a thing that is happening or has happened'.

 

[notanautomaton]

It's because the Realm itself is far less pathetic this edition, narratively. Like, this is the line, literally.

It's not something subtle here, it's the main reason the Scarlet Dynasty and Lookshy have only a handful of WMDs instead of a massive stockpile of them.

Click to shrink...

The issue is that we've never really seen an unquestioned DB hyperpower in Exalted's publication history. There's never been a Shogunate book, likewise the Realm's heights of power. So this is a lot of tell without much show.

 

[Deations]

The Caul is dumb not because it's the Caul, but because it is a single example. Beyond that all of this vaunted fluff describing the Realm being eaten away at the edges by the Lunars is vague. It doesn't tell me how the Lunars did it. I don't need an itemized list of steps, mind, but I don't see any thing like 'This lunar used economic warfare' or 'this confederation of gods with lunar patrons did such and such'. It's empty.

I want continuity, I want process, I want history, not arbitrary declaration of 'This is a thing that is happening or has happened'.

Click to shrink...

Thus far you have a single excerpt from a kickstarter that hasn't happened yet. Yes, it's going to feel incomplete, that's literally what it is?

The issue is that we've never really seen an unquestioned DB hyperpower in Exalted's publication history. There's never been a Shogunate book, likewise the Realm's heights of power. So this is a lot of tell without much show.

Click to shrink...

That succinctly describes every depiction of the First Age or the Shogunate in the game-line, prior to DotFA. And DotFA was just a bad idea in general.

 

[Flare]

So they're turning to Dungeons & Dragons - specifically the druid's wildshape ability, of all things - for guidance on how Lunars should work.

Nice.

I guess Lunars are just doomed to suck.

Click to shrink...

Just pointing out that Wildshape can, at higher levels, transform the druid in an elemental. With a bit of investment the druid can also transform into aberrations (i.e. straight-up unnatural monsters), dragons and things like hydras. This is discounting that there's a prestige class all about using wildshape to transform in basically everything and that druids can use transformation magic to turn into forms that wildshape can't.

Lunars suck compared to druids.

 

[Sucal]

You know, I can't help but be Cynical here.

We know that the original plan for the line (not sure if the new heads have changed it) was to have a number of new glorified god blooded exalted types, to cheapen the magic of exalted compare and contrast with the original 5 types. We know that the Sidereal get the 'Black Market' Exalted, the 'Dirty Bomb' Exalted and the Getimian, who have a bunch of fate powers and potentially Sidereal martial arts. We know the Abyssals get the Liminals, and that the Lunars had 2 types potentially contrasting with them.

I can't help but wonder if the advanced shapeshifting was removed from the Lunars so one of the new types could get it (considering the dev teams have said in the past that Lunars Aren't the shapeshifting exalted).

 

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes, turning into a t-rex or a spider, such a sucky power. If you can't shatter the game with it, clearly it's worthless.

Presumably because they want to be able to design magic monsters and not have to worry about what happens when a Lunar turns into it. Limits are good, when they allow for tighter focus and more flexibility in the things you consider more important than the animalistic shapeshifting demigods also turning into lava frogs.

Click to shrink...

There are animals who have Charmlike attack merits, flat out (Look at Death Dive or Brutal Stomp sometime). Turning into animals alone is already a mess and a half. Having Lunars with actual themes of their own, which come with restrictions on what they can and can't turn into, with animals who are actually awesome to turn into, is a good tradeoff for losing some of the strongest stuff from 2e that was a patch on the core Lunar experience being awful.

Lunars have never had enough identity to be themselves, so everyone kinda has their own best idea, so obviously Ex3 Lunars was never gonna be what everyone was hoping, but just...it's way the hell too early to be doomsaying, especially over something as completely ridiculous as "I can't turn into monsters designed as bossfights for groups of Solars".

Click to shrink...

I feel like we've gone back to that argument we had about how Lunar shapeshifting should be handled, except now you're arguing my side.

Like I said a couple weeks ago, this is exactly why I don't want Lunar shapeshifting to just give you the character sheet of whatever you turn into.

(Also why I don't think every form should be free xp-wise, but that's a separate argument.)

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Yes, turning into a t-rex or a spider, such a sucky power. If you can't shatter the game with it, clearly it's worthless.

Click to shrink...

I'm not thinking about 'shattering the game', and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't immediately start throwing borderline ad hominems around.

My issue here is that Lunars are essentially the adoptive grandchildren of Oramus, the Entelechial Chorister, the Dragon Beyond the World. Their patron Luna was forged from a kodoku ritual where all possible moons of Creation was captured in an urn forged from the Beyond itself and forced to devour each other until one emerged triumphant.

Lunars should be capable of much more than druidic shapeshifting*. The Celestial Exalted of Luna should be able to take the forms of elementals and gods and the restless dead, of the Could-Have-Been and the Never-Should, of nightmares and wildfires and the stones beneath your feet. They should be equally capable of infiltrating a camp as a humble jumping spider, a morning fog, or the cook's assistant.

Does that mean they should get to freely access the Charms of anything they can take the form of? Fucking NO. That would be insanity.

If you asked me for a solution, I'd give Lunars a group of Charms with effects that are deliberately easy to refluff as a function of various spooky things they turn into; something that lets them tack on an extra Crippling effect to represent anything from the ragged wounds left by a deinonychus' terrible claw to the hissing blue-tinged burns from a nephwrack's cold-burning lance, which sears spirit and flesh alike; something that lets them rapidly reposition themselves in a fight to represent a marotte's bounding movement, a mist-wreathed specter's oozing half-flight, or even a Wyld mutant capable of spectacular, barely controlled leaps thanks to the strange tubules jutting from its calves & back, which violently suck in air and spew it forth in a pressurized stream; a variable natural weapon Charm that can model anything from the Lunar sprouting winglike nets of barbed jellyfish tendrils to a biomechanical high-frequency arm blade to spitting thumb-sized blobs of molten iron.

Make the Charms have cool, useful mechanical effects while leaving the precise cosmetic details firmly in the player's hands, preferably with a little bit of modular design ('choose X qualities from the following list when activating this Charm') to further increase that sense of freedom and customization.

Now, this leaves the problem of what to do when you're masquerading as Mụt Nhọt, the infamous ex-Celestial God of Festering Wounds who haunts the Southwestern isles, and an opponent notices that "Mụt Nhọt" isn't using [XYZ Spirit Charm that Lunars shouldn't be given access to a facsimile of because it'd fuck up game balance]. The solution is to remember that Luna is very much a deceiver and a bringer of madness, and provide Lunars with an early Charm that lets them twist the senses and sensibilities of their enemies, so that they are incapable of noticing this strange inconsistency in the heat of battle without spending Willpower, or making an opposed Ability check, or whatever mechanical representation would work best.**

I will freely admit that a lot of my inspiration for a Lunar revamp are coming from things like the Pillar Men, along with TAW and fanon/canon writing where Luna more-or-less is to raksha as in-universe Tzimisce elders are to LARPers portraying Tzimisce elders. It's by no means something I think should be some universally-accepted standard. However, Lunars being shackled to my Reader's Digest Field Guide to North American Wildlife seems like a bizarre and limiting paradigm.


* And yes, I'm going to keep bringing that up, because 'turn into any animal, but not supernatural creatures' is a concept that D&D has propagated throughout TTRPG culture as 'their' idea. If Lunars' primary capacity is wildshape, then prospective Lunar players are going to be thinking about druids and animal companions and non-metallic armor whenever they think about Lunars, and that's not a mental association that should be encouraged, in my opinion. It's the same idea as avoiding terms like "knight" and "king" to avoid STs & players falling into the vague medieval setting that D&D primed us all to think of.

Also, why should Lunars be constrained to emulating "real" animals when Luna herself turns into whatever the hell she wants to? Again, this isn't me arguing that every Lunar should be on par with an Incarna, it's me pointing out that Solars can access Ignis Divine's aspects of "I'm the Sun" as well as his "superhuman skill" aspects, and the Lunar Exalted should be similarly able to wield (lesser versions of) their patron's powers in totality rather than being artificially held back.


** This has the happy bonus effect of making it so that the Outcaste mercenary leader hired to kill "Mụt Nhọt" starts to feel a sense of creeping unease as the battle progresses, an unshakable feeling that something isn't right. Then, in a flash, she realizes something: "Mụt Nhọt" has been using techniques from a derivative of Burning Sea Style, when the real Mụt Nhọt is known for disdaining "inferior" mortal styles - moreso, he hasn't even reached for the lambskin satchel of leprosy-inducing dust he's known for using against mortal foes, instead wielding his seven-section staff against her subordinates! They've been fighting an impostor! How could she have fallen for such a transparent deception...

Moonbeast!

 

[Chehrazad]

I suppose the absolute simplest I can say is that 1e and definitely 2e made it clear that the 'magic' of Creation is internally consistent and avoids certain kinds of narrative or external exceptions. So I'm 'defining' at your request based on my impression of those games. 'Rational Magic' as I consider it, is where if you can make water ex nihilo, then logically any culture that lives in water-scares environs like the Desert will seek those magical means of making water- we see that canonically in Gem, after all.

This is to contrast 'Irrational magic' or 'just because' magic or 'For the story' magic. It's why I brought it up in context of 'Mundane animals vs magical animals'.

Does that help?

Click to shrink...

Okay, so let me understand. You define rational magic as not being magic that is self-consistently rational internally as a system, but self-consistently rational within a larger system, and also consistent with the precepts and principles of that larger system? So your definition would necessitate that:

1. A system is populated by rational actors that will make use of available resources.
2. Magic is an available resource.
3. Magic follows pre-defined rules that are followed and internally self-consistent without exception or bias.
4. Rational actors will thus seek to use magic appropriate to their situation.

Is this approximately correct?

My issue here is that Lunars are essentially the adoptive grandchildren of Oramus, the Entelechial Chorister, the Dragon Beyond the World. Their patron Luna was forged from a kodoku ritual where all possible moons of Creation was captured in an urn forged from the Beyond itself and forced to devour each other until one emerged triumphant.

Click to shrink...

Incidentally this may not count for Luna in 3e, it did not count for Lunars in 1e and it didn't even count for Lunars in most of 2e. It was added in Glories of the Most High: Luna towards the end of the Exalted Second Edition line, and expecting it to carry over or be representative of Luna in general is not necessarily a good idea. Nor is the focus on Oramus, as Oramus has - historically - only been essentially a footnote in Malfeas.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Incidentally this may not count for Luna in 3e, it did not count for Lunars in 1e and it didn't even count for Lunars in most of 2e. It was added in Glories of the Most High: Luna towards the end of the Exalted Second Edition line, and expecting it to carry over or be representative of Luna in general is not necessarily a good idea. Nor is the focus on Oramus, as Oramus has - historically - only been essentially a footnote in Malfeas.

Click to shrink...

Did not know that.

Just to be safe, I'll reiterate that my idea for how to Lunar is purely my own off-the-cuff opinions on them, and I don't see it as the "right" or "canon" opinion in any way. I just have serious reservations about "mundane animals only" Lunar Exalted.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

I doubt they'll talk much about Luna, but if they do show up I expect they'll retain the Lovecraftian themes and the ability to become monsters.

The current vision of Lunars is heavily monster-themed. To quote the bit from the Onyx Path website that spurred this line of discussion:

In the Divine Revolution, the Lunars were monsters that even the most nightmarish among the enemies of the gods learned to fear. They waged war in the shapes of snakes as long as rivers, all-devouring swarms bearing devil-slaying plagues, beast-mothers with tusks like daiklaives and stampedes of murderous children, and countless other wild horrors.

Click to shrink...

I'm not really sure how to square this with the "they only transform into mundane animals" thing, but maybe there were geography-sized non-magical snakes before the Primordials fell.

 

[Flare]

* And yes, I'm going to keep bringing that up, because 'turn into any animal, but not supernatural creatures' is a concept that D&D has propagated throughout TTRPG culture as 'their' idea.

Click to shrink...

And that idea you have is wrong, since in multiple editions druids are able to turn into supernatural creatures, both through the use of class features and the use of spells (which you have consistently discounted, as far as I can tell).

 

[Unbanshee]

My issue here is that Lunars are essentially the adoptive grandchildren of Oramus, the Entelechial Chorister, the Dragon Beyond the World. Their patron Luna was forged from a kodoku ritual where all possible moons of Creation was captured in an urn forged from the Beyond itself and forced to devour each other until one emerged triumphant.

Click to shrink...

Euhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is so Infernals-centric though? Cause iirc there's nothing about Oramus in anything Lunars until you get to Glories: Luna. The DBs aren't people blessed with divine elemental power because Gaia is their grandmother, they're elemental supersoldiers because the Elemental Dragons blessed them. Solars aren't Blessed with the infinite shedding radiance of the Sun because Malfeas made Sol Invictus, they're blessed with the perfect power of the sun because the SUN gave them power.

If I want to play a game with hell themes, I'll play an infernal. Lunars were second-rate solars in the last two editions, I don't want Lunars to be second-rate Infernals in this edition.

 

[Kaiya]

I doubt they'll talk much about Luna, but if they do show up I expect they'll retain the Lovecraftian themes and the ability to become monsters.

The current vision of Lunars is heavily monster-themed. To quote the bit from the Onyx Path website that spurred this line of discussion:



I'm not really sure how to square this with the "they only transform into mundane animals" thing, but maybe there were geography-sized non-magical snakes before the Primordials fell.

Click to shrink...

River-long snakes aren't magical in the way that a spirit is.

Ask the Devs - Onyx Path Forums

 

[Shyft]

Okay, so let me understand. You define rational magic as not being magic that is self-consistently rational internally as a system, but self-consistently rational within a larger system, and also consistent with the precepts and principles of that larger system? So your definition would necessitate that:

1. A system is populated by rational actors that will make use of available resources.
2. Magic is an available resource.
3. Magic follows pre-defined rules that are followed and internally self-consistent without exception or bias.
4. Rational actors will thus seek to use magic appropriate to their situation.

Is this approximately correct?

Click to shrink...

Yes, that is accurate, but I want to stress that I don't expect 'rational actors' to be perfect thought experiment humans either. People, and more importantly characters can have idiosyncratic goals and strategies. This is not an argument for 'Perfect Play'.

Though there is an additional point that's relevant to the context of 'mundane animal vs magical animal. Part of what I mean is that the internal consistency of magic... if there are any limitations on that magic, it ought make statements on something. If a shapeshifter (Lunar or otherwise) cannot do something, I want to have a fairly comprehensible reason why that informs me of something, either in-setting or out of setting.

So if Lunars are limited to 'Natural' animals or incapable of manifesting Unnatural Perks, I want to know why and I want to be given a good pitch as to why this is a net positive for Lunars. I would not consider 'because it's cooler to do it this way!' as a rational magic argument. I'd accept 'for balance' reasons, as a metatextual consideration, but I'd still be dissatisfied with it, because it doesn't say much positive about the development either.

'Cool Factor' is important for a game like Exalted, mind you, but I have trouble trusting other people's definition of cool, so I'm usually suspect of it as sufficient reason for anything.

Related to point 3 is that Magic should not be consistently a 'black box', insoluble by historic characters or player characters. There's obviously a point where too much systematization is bad. But one of the best ways to develop long-term investment is giving people something they can meaningfully interact with. 'Mystery' and 'Ignorance' are useful tools, but should be used sparingly.

Maybe put another way- when I say 'rational magic' I mean I should be able to as a player both see the 'world' take logical (not necessarily efficient or perfect) actions. Like farmers praying to weather gods for good harvests. And then as a player, I should be able to take elements A, B and C as presented by the game books and then combine them in an interesting way- adjusted by ST arbitration where needed, but still logical.

I probably won't get to add to this til later, if there's anything else needing clarification.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

River-long snakes aren't magical in the way that a spirit is.

Ask the Devs - Onyx Path Forums

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure any argument against turning into supernatural beings applies to turning into a snake several kilometres long.

 

[Deations]

Lunars should be capable of much more than druidic shapeshifting*. The Celestial Exalted of Luna should be able to take the forms of elementals and gods and the restless dead, of the Could-Have-Been and the Never-Should, of nightmares and wildfires and the stones beneath your feet. They should be equally capable of infiltrating a camp as a humble jumping spider, a morning fog, or the cook's assistant.

* And yes, I'm going to keep bringing that up, because 'turn into any animal, but not supernatural creatures' is a concept that D&D has propagated throughout TTRPG culture as 'their' idea. If Lunars' primary capacity is wildshape, then prospective Lunar players are going to be thinking about druids and animal companions and non-metallic armor whenever they think about Lunars, and that's not a mental association that should be encouraged, in my opinion. It's the same idea as avoiding terms like "knight" and "king" to avoid STs & players falling into the vague medieval setting that D&D primed us all to think of.

Click to shrink...

I really do not get this argument. Lunars were associated with Beast Forms in 1E and 2E up until Glories gave them extra options, not because they're in keeping with Lunar thematics but because they waved a white flag and admitted that they couldn't think of a way to make animal shapeshifting viable or useful in 2E as anything except a cheap disguise. Their associations with the natural world are clear and concrete, and I'm not sure I like the idea of 'mundane' animals being used as a pejorative given that mundane animals in this setting include anything not a spirit such as the Tyrant Lizard, who can likely DEVOUR a circle of starting Solars, or the Grave Hound who can gain the memories and personalities of the corpses they consume, can hit noncorporeal targets freely, and ignore flurries for Defend Other, or the Tiger's Eye, which is an animal covered in Crystal, can disguise itself as a gemstone to ambush others. Or the Ginat Grosbeak, which while still very much a flesh and blood bird rather than some manner of god or elemental, can manipulate essence and has access to its own unique Charms on top of that. Or the Fog Shark, which is well, absolutely horrifying. A shark that can swim in fog, jesus christ.

Just because the animals are corporeal does not make these animals mundane.

Furthermore, if it's so essential or central that Lunars be able to shapeshift into gods, elementals, and other spirits, why is the expectation there that they are restricted to only beasts as totems, then? Why not have a Blood Ape totem Lunar? Or a Hungry Ghost Totem? Or an Ifrit Totem? Or an Elemental Dragon totem, that'd go over real well, right?

Pretty sure any argument against turning into supernatural beings applies to turning into a snake several kilometres long.

Click to shrink...

It's just a serpent with the Legendary Size merit? The point is that it's a corporeal beast, rather than a sentient semi-corporeal deity composed of congealed essence rather than flesh and blood. The Tyrant Lizard is also fair game, and Lunars have always been able to turn into them, nobody's able to deny that. Similarly, creatures like the Armored Kraken are also absolutely fair game.

 

[Kaiya]

I really do not get this argument. Lunars were associated with Beast Forms in 1E and 2E up until Glories gave them extra options, not because they're in keeping with Lunar thematics but because they waved a white flag and admitted that they couldn't think of a way to make animal shapeshifting viable or useful in 2E as anything except a cheap disguise. Their associations with the natural world are clear and concrete, and I'm not sure I like the idea of 'mundane' animals being used as a pejorative given that mundane animals in this setting include anything not a spirit such as the Tyrant Lizard, who can likely DEVOUR a circle of starting Solars, or the Grave Hound who can gain the memories and personalities of the corpses they consume, can hit noncorporeal targets freely, and ignore flurries for Defend Other, or the Tiger's Eye, which is an animal covered in Crystal, can disguise itself as a gemstone to ambush others. Or the Ginat Grosbeak, which while still very much a flesh and blood bird rather than some manner of god or elemental, can manipulate essence and has access to its own unique Charms on top of that. Or the Fog Shark, which is well, absolutely horrifying. A shark that can swim in fog, jesus christ.

Just because the animals are corporeal does not make these animals mundane.

Furthermore, if it's so essential or central that Lunars be able to shapeshift into gods, elementals, and other spirits, why is the expectation there that they are restricted to only beasts as totems, then? Why not have a Blood Ape totem Lunar? Or a Hungry Ghost Totem? Or an Ifrit Totem? Or an Elemental Dragon totem, that'd go over real well, right?



It's just a serpent with the Legendary Size merit? The point is that it's a corporeal beast, rather than a sentient semi-corporeal deity composed of congealed essence rather than flesh and blood. The Tyrant Lizard is also fair game, and Lunars have always been able to turn into them, nobody's able to deny that. Similarly, creatures like the Armored Kraken are also absolutely fair game.

Click to shrink...

The Tiger Eye, Grave Hound, and Giant Grosbeak are literally the kinds of thing you are completely not allowed to turn into as a Lunar, though.

 

[Deations]

The Tiger Eye, Grave Hound, and Giant Grosbeak are literally the kinds of thing you are completely not allowed to turn into as a Lunar, though.

Click to shrink...

That remains to be seen. Maybe the Grosbeak, because it has an essence pool, but the Tiger Eye and the Grave Hound don't have awakened essence and are explicitly animals, not elementals. They have merits and special abilities, but no charms.