Turning into spirits isn't core to their themes nor their pitch. Their themes, what little was ever there, have always been primarily focused on animals. And they got the absolute best of that world this time around, and in exchange, they lost a peripheral benefit of being able to turn into spirits. There was nothing thematic to Lunars lost, because the sacrifice is in part about tightening their themes so they have something other than "glowy shapeshifters" to call their own.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Lunars should be able to steal the form of magical monsters and supernatural creatures" is not a super-out there opinion to hold. Like it's valid. It's something they could do before. It's not some kind of theme-shattering thing and it's not impossible to balance. I mean, there are already mechanical terms to separate mundane animal abilities from supernatural ones and actual Charms, you can restrict Lunar access to the latter, it's fine.
I don't agree, personally? I think Lunars are better if you focus their aesthetics and themes around mundane animals (with an exception I outline below). There are reasons for this; I think it is a better fit for the cultural narratives they're inspired from. I think opening the door to magical monsters create an unbalance in "wow factor" that is going to lead a lot of players to miss the inherent coolness of playing a werewolf or a snake-person or someone who turns into birds. These are both mechanically potent options, and also draw on a lot of cultural and historical imagery that can be really powerful if allowed the room to shine - heraldry, shapeshifter myths and so on feature more real beasts than birds of literal fire and so on. Why turn into a bear when you can turn into a Sky Bear, a mouse when you could be a Mouse of the Sun, a gorilla when you could be a Blood Ape? There are legitimate reasons why these animals can be cooler but I am a proponent of heavy-handed incentives in gaming and I feel it's right to give a push in the direction of exploring this thematic/aesthetic space because if you just allow everything people will default to the biggest "wow factor."
The exception is that I think chimeric creatures should be part of Lunar themes. They have strong mythical and cultural resonance and are typically based on real-world stories more than Exalted's weird idyosincratic demons and ghosts and so on. A Lunar should totally be able to be a griffon, a pegasus, a hydra. That's fine.
But, the counterpoint to my position, "I just want to turn into a goddamned Garda Bird because fuck you I'm a perpetually-burning phoenix" is a strong argument on its own. I'm not saying this sarcastically at all; it is rad as fuck, period. I think Lunars are better served by that not being an option (or locking it behind specific or circuitous paths, like I dunno, sorcery, 'only your spirit shape,' whatever). But it's a valid position and it has a strong argument for it, which is that it is just plain cool in a game about cool magical heroes.
I don't think this needs to be a debate where we all eat each other alive over the One True Lunar Design, basically.
I don't agree, personally? I think Lunars are better if you focus their aesthetics and themes around mundane animals (with an exception I outline below). There are reasons for this; I think it is a better fit for the cultural narratives they're inspired from. I think opening the door to magical monsters create an unbalance in "wow factor" that is going to lead a lot of players to miss the inherent coolness of playing a werewolf or a snake-person or someone who turns into birds. These are both mechanically potent options, and also draw on a lot of cultural and historical imagery that can be really powerful if allowed the room to shine - heraldry, shapeshifter myths and so on feature more real beasts than birds of literal fire and so on. Why turn into a bear when you can turn into a Sky Bear, a mouse when you could be a Mouse of the Sun, a gorilla when you could be a Blood Ape? There are legitimate reasons why these animals can be cooler but I am a proponent of heavy-handed incentives in gaming and I feel it's right to give a push in the direction of exploring this thematic/aesthetic space because if you just allow everything people will default to the biggest "wow factor."
The exception is that I think chimeric creatures should be part of Lunar themes. They have strong mythical and cultural resonance and are typically based on real-world stories more than Exalted's weird idyosincratic demons and ghosts and so on. A Lunar should totally be able to be a griffon, a pegasus, a hydra. That's fine.
But, the counterpoint to my position, "I just want to turn into a goddamned Garda Bird because fuck you I'm a perpetually-burning phoenix" is a strong argument on its own. I'm not saying this sarcastically at all; it is rad as fuck, period. I think Lunars are better served by that not being an option (or locking it behind specific or circuitous paths, like I dunno, sorcery, 'only your spirit shape,' whatever). But it's a valid position and it has a strong argument for it, which is that it is just plain cool in a game about cool magical heroes.
I don't think this needs to be a debate where we all eat each other alive over the One True Lunar Design, basically.
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Again, this is meaningless when Lunar themes as published have been an incoherent tire fire since before they were published. Having a keening rage inside you for the lost age of dreams hasn't been a core part of the Lunar experience either until now, but 3e is happy to run hard with it while abandoning the stewardship that was core to them in 2e and distancing itself from the savage fantasy side of things that 1e wanted to be. People are allowed to be attached to aspects of the splat that aren't making the cut, and lament the loss in that, and if you want to argue the point then have the decency to engage with them on their own merits, as @Omicron just did, instead of dismissing their importance outright.
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Okay, but I didn't see "sucks that this is gone" but rather "why is this core thing being compromised", and it wasn't a core thing being compromised, it was one of the elements that they've dipped into being dropped. Like, Lunars lacking core themes until is sort of my whole point with the post you quoted. Nothing core was lost, because nothing they've ever had has ever been core that isn't "can shapeshift, into what has fluctuated".
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- my house
Honestly stating shapeshifting as (power to turn into animal x as stated in the corebook) is a bad idea. It's just too hard to balance (dnd taught us that lesson).
It's much better to have the shapeshifting represented by distinct mechanical widgets (like mutations) which can be mixed and matched to be whatever animal you want.
Like picking fur and claws and just saying that makes you a wolf or a badger or whatver.
Or make each charm a distinct custom effect. So you have the turn into statblock x charm and you can say it's a bear or whatever. And then add charms which do things like increase your grapple for a turn which is fluffed as gaining tentacles or whatever
It's much better to have the shapeshifting represented by distinct mechanical widgets (like mutations) which can be mixed and matched to be whatever animal you want.
Like picking fur and claws and just saying that makes you a wolf or a badger or whatver.
Or make each charm a distinct custom effect. So you have the turn into statblock x charm and you can say it's a bear or whatever. And then add charms which do things like increase your grapple for a turn which is fluffed as gaining tentacles or whatever
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Really? Because I just re-read the last page and it started with me going 'laaaame', then GardenerBriarus bitterly talking about Lunars sucking and Sanctaphrax asking why the cut of a grand ability. If you got wailings about the core identity of Lunars from that, I dunno what to tell you except work on your reading comprehension I guess?
Literally in the post I had quoted.
Sure. I'm okay with Lunars getting Eclipse-Ok abilities if they devour the spirits that have them, after all, Twilights can do it too via Occult and they're not Eclipses either. Eating a ghost and getting a few of their arcanoi are fine with me, if the developers choose to do that.
Devouring a ghost and being able to literally turn yourself into an Incorporal Undead Being being though, is just weird and not especially essential Lunars.
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Implausible presentation of the Silver Pact and mechanicizing shapeshifting nothing, this new angle of "breaking the Castes was deliberate, guys" sets up Lunars to be vastly more incompetent than they have ever been portrayed before.
We are supposed to accept that not only did a few hundred highly individualistic Exalts get together as a unified group to formalize out an entirely new Caste structure for themselves to which every single Lunar (even those unaligned or in disagreement with the main group's own goals) would slavishly adhere to from that point on, but also that after literally reforging themselves into this supposedly-powerful superweapon focused against a new, much narrower and less demanding conflict than killing the creators of reality, that the best all these efforts have managed to do is chip away at the monolith of entrenched Dragonblooded hegemony over the course of actual centuries.
You're trying to sell me that an entire Exalt type based on Physical Might, Stealth and Cunning couldn't muster up even a tenth of the significance of the Usurpation towards a force they have universally specialized themselves to fight against, over hundreds of years, even and up-to including the collapse of worldwide civilization and an inexplicable refusal to capitalize on a sudden change of authority/power vacuum within the enemy as everything tumbled down around their heads. The very thing which they had rebuilt themselves to do. Which doesn't make me think "oh they're just holding back the Good Shit," but forces me to ask, "well holy shit, then how fucking badly did the original 5 castes fare before this, then?"
Nevermind the fact that, while inexplicable that Lunars would be weakest against the forces of the Wyld, the use of the castes breaking as a form of generational shared-trauma actually helped give the Lunar host a legitimate Reason to seek eachother out as kindred spirits and establish some rough systems of mentorship and camaraderie not based on pursuing the Forever War. While mishandled and contradictory, it still emphasized that Lunars survive against all odds, not that they simply have not been killed yet.
The presentation of an almost one-sided conflict with the Realm, despite being specialized for it, with no reason to assemble as they do, causing no worthwhile traction across generations of fighting doesn't make me think, "oh they're the underdogs here! Incremental victories!" it makes me think, "the Lunars are losing this in the long run because they are disorganized Fucking Idiots."
We are supposed to accept that not only did a few hundred highly individualistic Exalts get together as a unified group to formalize out an entirely new Caste structure for themselves to which every single Lunar (even those unaligned or in disagreement with the main group's own goals) would slavishly adhere to from that point on, but also that after literally reforging themselves into this supposedly-powerful superweapon focused against a new, much narrower and less demanding conflict than killing the creators of reality, that the best all these efforts have managed to do is chip away at the monolith of entrenched Dragonblooded hegemony over the course of actual centuries.
You're trying to sell me that an entire Exalt type based on Physical Might, Stealth and Cunning couldn't muster up even a tenth of the significance of the Usurpation towards a force they have universally specialized themselves to fight against, over hundreds of years, even and up-to including the collapse of worldwide civilization and an inexplicable refusal to capitalize on a sudden change of authority/power vacuum within the enemy as everything tumbled down around their heads. The very thing which they had rebuilt themselves to do. Which doesn't make me think "oh they're just holding back the Good Shit," but forces me to ask, "well holy shit, then how fucking badly did the original 5 castes fare before this, then?"
Nevermind the fact that, while inexplicable that Lunars would be weakest against the forces of the Wyld, the use of the castes breaking as a form of generational shared-trauma actually helped give the Lunar host a legitimate Reason to seek eachother out as kindred spirits and establish some rough systems of mentorship and camaraderie not based on pursuing the Forever War. While mishandled and contradictory, it still emphasized that Lunars survive against all odds, not that they simply have not been killed yet.
The presentation of an almost one-sided conflict with the Realm, despite being specialized for it, with no reason to assemble as they do, causing no worthwhile traction across generations of fighting doesn't make me think, "oh they're the underdogs here! Incremental victories!" it makes me think, "the Lunars are losing this in the long run because they are disorganized Fucking Idiots."
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
At the bottom of the page after the argument had gone on some ways already and, frankly, yes turning into spirits is more core to Lunars than frikkin' charmtheft is to Solars, because that's not a high bar to clear
I see no problem with four hundred disorganized Exalts losing members and experience while being huntred across millenia losing to an empire led by ten thousand Exalts who also have specialized themselves in the systematic extermination of Lunars.
You are arguing that the Lunars aren't sufficiently competent by reasoning that the Dragonblooded ought to be inept, hapless flailing pushovers that should have been rolled over by the Lunars ages ago.
No dude. They should not try to make Lunars cool by completely tossing the Realm under the bus as a viable threat. Dragonblooded are also Exalts, and they won the Usurpation. The Lunars did not.
EDIT: Your argument honestly still baffles me. The Shogunate, at its height, had anywhere between hundreds of thousands to millions of Dragonblooded. Sheer attrition and size would make this a tall order for 400 Exalts, if only due to the sheer scale involved! Not to mention that the Dragonblooded were the ones in control of the Blessed Isle's resources, infrastructure, and artifacts after the Usurpation. Not to mention that they had the backing of the Sidereals, so if you want to argue that the Lunars should stomp all over the Dragonblooded simply because you dismiss them as mere minions, then the presence of "real" Exalts behind them should surely grant them some legitimacy. Not to mention that even after the Shogunated had collapsed, the Scarlet Empress had a card that not even the Shoguns had: the Sword of Creation. Not to mention that even in spite of all these cards the Realm is holding, it was accepted wisdom even amongst the fractious Lunars that the Realm's collapse was a matter of When, not If, and they were probably in the best position to judge given that they spent most of recorded history fighting against the Shogunate and its successors. Not to mention that now the collapse of the Realm is imminent, the question on every Lunar's mind isn't 'how do we win' but 'what do we actually want to do with Creation once we do win.'
Your argument only holds water if you utterly disregard the Dragonblooded's credibility as Exalts. That's a toxic idea that's been passed around since 1E. The Dragonblooded are Exalts. They also won the Primordial War too. They are backed by the Sidereals, who also had their own victories during the period. The Lunars, while more powerful on an individual level, stand alone amongst what remains of the Exalted host.
What I am saying is that, yes, in their current position the Lunars toppling the Realm should be an even taller order than killing a Primordial! And the fact remains that they are still doing it.
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- Location
- NYC
My issue with constraining shapeshifting to animal stuff is that the theme of "animal stuff" isn't very interesting. Animal stuff gets you 2E Lunars, where you had "get more soak, but for animal reasons" or "be cunning like an animal" or "get an essence weapon, but its claws!" You can get cool powers out of it, but it it feels (to me) shallow. It's stuff I've seen before. It's stuff my D&D Druid was able to get. Broadening the theme to "shapeshifting [acquiring via stealing the metaphorical and possibly literal skin of your target]" where you are capable of turning into basically anything other than an Exalt feels deeper to me, outside any mechanical considerations. It feels more like something I can design Charms for, across all Essence levels. It feels more like a statement about what Lunars are supposed to do with their powers, what Lunars are about. They're Alex Mercer, or Megaman. Getting new shapeshifting forms is interesting gameplay, it's stuff that motivates plot. You want to be out hunting the biggest monsters. You want to be slaying [the things that happen to be the enemies of Creation], because that gives you power. It makes Lunars scary, for the rest of Creation, especially the powerful, who think that they're safe behind their walls. It makes for interesting internal divisions within the Lunars, about how far they're willing to go for that power.
It makes Lunars more interesting in the setting. The Tell, if that's coming back, becomes really important. That random God? Could be a Lunar—you don't know, even if they're using clear God powers. That Blood Ape you summoned? A Lunar killed and replaced it. Only fellow Dragonblooded can be trusted without thorough examination, because only their talents cannot be stolen and mimicked. Lunars become broad, able to master a hundred tricks. Picking up strange, different forms becomes something valuable, because you're getting real value out of that.
I think @Omicron's concern about this encouraging Lunars to immediately go for magical creatures and never look back is real—I could imagine a number of ways to balance it out, from extra mote (or even wp) costs to assume magical forms, xp costs to acquire them, charm-gating access, Charms that only work on mundane forms, your Anima coming out quicker in a magical form, etc., but I'm not sure how desirable some or all of these would be. I do think that there's some balance space where the Lunar who wants to focus on mundane forms isn't overshadowed by the Lunar who goes straight for magical ones though, although given that the devs chose to go another way we'll likely never see.
It makes Lunars more interesting in the setting. The Tell, if that's coming back, becomes really important. That random God? Could be a Lunar—you don't know, even if they're using clear God powers. That Blood Ape you summoned? A Lunar killed and replaced it. Only fellow Dragonblooded can be trusted without thorough examination, because only their talents cannot be stolen and mimicked. Lunars become broad, able to master a hundred tricks. Picking up strange, different forms becomes something valuable, because you're getting real value out of that.
I think @Omicron's concern about this encouraging Lunars to immediately go for magical creatures and never look back is real—I could imagine a number of ways to balance it out, from extra mote (or even wp) costs to assume magical forms, xp costs to acquire them, charm-gating access, Charms that only work on mundane forms, your Anima coming out quicker in a magical form, etc., but I'm not sure how desirable some or all of these would be. I do think that there's some balance space where the Lunar who wants to focus on mundane forms isn't overshadowed by the Lunar who goes straight for magical ones though, although given that the devs chose to go another way we'll likely never see.
I guess but...they're not Megaman? Nor Alex Mercer. They're never been either of those, and there were never any indications they might be those? I'm not sure what you're saying with the comparison? Like, I would never have really used them as a point of comparison when like, there's Loki and Enkidu around.
It's weird, though, 'cause I'm the exact opposite of you. The animal focus holds deep meaning and potential for me, and the magical form option had me scratching my head, trying to see the appeal other than just, magical monsters are cool. I can't see what is cool and thematic about turning into a ghost to sneak into a palace that works better than turning into a spider or a serpent and doing the same. Turning into magical monsters just doesn't seem very interesting at all, when there's so much mythic potential in real life animals.
- Location
- NYC
Because Loki and Enkidu needed to eat their prey before they could transform into it? Your interpretation of what Lunars are and have always been requires selectively ignoring a bunch of 1E and 2E, which is fair, because most of 1E and 2E Lunars is a garbage fire, but there's pretty comparable "canonical" backing for this idea of Lunars as "eat your enemies to gain their power" guys as their is "animal shapeshifter guys".
And if we assume that "turn into animal" is the most basic power that a Lunar has, what's the mythic potential you envision that expands on this? A big part of the issue with 2E is that this is what they went for, and it didn't work, because Exalts pretty quickly and dramatically surpass the powers and potential of mundane animals, leaving the mythic potential little more than "you are very quick like an animal because animals are fast".
That's a good point, in that it was a massive problem for Lunars in 1E and 2E. However, in 3E shapeshifting also provides access to unique merits specific to that animal, which are gamechangers, especially when it's not just a bear you are fighting, it is a Bear that is ALSO a Lunar with concomittant access to charms (some of which are now enhanced based on its current shape as it relates to the Protean Keyword), excellencies, and powerful merits unique to that form.
A Lunar who turns into a bear is a Lunar who now gets bonus dice when you wound them, and has a pair of animal attacks that are basically martial art Charms that don't cost motes, for instant.
- Location
- NYC
But, like, everything you're describing except Protean Charms (and arguably merits) was true in 1E and 2E? My objection isn't to the idea that you can balance this out, its that I don't know what "mythic potential for real life animals" looks like in terms of Charm design beyond "you are smart like the raven" or "strong like the ox." That a lot of the mythic power of shapeshifting is (as in Loki) just the basic ability to shapeshift, which every Lunar gets by default, making it not very useful in defining the stuff that you actually get to invest in.
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- Location
- my house
For me the issue is the disconnect between magical and mundane. I love that their isn't a divide between the two in exalted because having that divide in fiction always felt weird to me. Lkke yeah to us snakes made of fire are strange and obviously magical because they can't exist in our world. But in a world that uses different physics, one where things like that can and do exist, the us things shouldn't seem any weirder than any other creature.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Remember, a lot of people stuck with Exalted for the 'Rational Magic' approach to things, which includes that minimal divide between magic and mundane.
Thing is, while Lunars get shapeshifting, the entirety of their splat cannot be boiled down to 'the shapeshifting guys'. Lunars get charms and powers around more than just shapeshifting. Being able to turn into animals or humans is one very flexible tool in their toolbox, not the only tool they have.
I'd answer this, but I'd be breaking an NDA. Can I ask you, as someone who is in the Lunar playtest, to just reserve judgement? The entirety of the thing comes together in ways I think are pretty neat, but which I literally legally cannot say more about. The design is really tight and they play in really fun ways, and maybe you still won't like it when they come out. But it's worth not dismissing them, I feel, based on previews that by their nature can't sell how the whole thing lines up with Ex3 and how it plays.
True. But my point was that largely both Protean and the Merits are significant in making shapeshifting worthwhile and more meaningful, and while it's true that mundane animals are still pretty pitiful compared to an Exalt, a Lunar will never be mundane by default and the shapeshifting provides undeniable tangible benefits over their default human form, which was not present in previous editions.
I don't think we will ever know, up until the Lunars kickstarter documents are online and we see how it's handled, so
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- Denmark
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- She/Her
I'm going to be asinine and ask you to further define what you refer to as "Rational Magic" entails. I'm not interested in someone else's definition, I'd like to hear your thoughts about it. Unpack the term, if you would be so kind.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
I suppose the absolute simplest I can say is that 1e and definitely 2e made it clear that the 'magic' of Creation is internally consistent and avoids certain kinds of narrative or external exceptions. So I'm 'defining' at your request based on my impression of those games. 'Rational Magic' as I consider it, is where if you can make water ex nihilo, then logically any culture that lives in water-scares environs like the Desert will seek those magical means of making water- we see that canonically in Gem, after all.
This is to contrast 'Irrational magic' or 'just because' magic or 'For the story' magic. It's why I brought it up in context of 'Mundane animals vs magical animals'.
Does that help?