General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Washington, USA
I appreciate the intent behind this, but if you will not acknowledge meaningful priorities beyond and distinct from immediate gratification - and thus the possibility of making a subsystem better despite being marginally less fun in the moment - I cannot discuss this subject further with you to useful result.
- Location
- Ottawa
Charms are not nonmagical. Charms are like 95% of the magic PCs use in this game. And if you look at how they're acquired and used in play, they're clearly similar to spells.
Spells, of course, are also spells.
Things definitely do seem to be moving faster now. But who knows, maybe they'll be slower later. When predicting the distant future, I think it's better to look at the line's whole history rather than just the most recent bit.
But hey, maybe they'll keep up the pace. Maybe we'll see Alchemicals in a mere 15 years.
I'd take it a step further:
Also, I'd say that Solar xp can't be used on MA.
Spells, of course, are also spells.
Things definitely do seem to be moving faster now. But who knows, maybe they'll be slower later. When predicting the distant future, I think it's better to look at the line's whole history rather than just the most recent bit.
But hey, maybe they'll keep up the pace. Maybe we'll see Alchemicals in a mere 15 years.
I'd take it a step further:
Also, I'd say that Solar xp can't be used on MA.
.... Uh...
Okay, I'll admit that I only spent about five seconds thinking about it, but how on earth are you planning to have something resembling a combat system without a roll to hit?
I guess you could replace them with "every time you swing you do 'damage' representing tiring the other guy out", F/GO style, but... honestly I'm not sure why that's something to be desired.
- Location
- Virginia
Why on earth would I want each action in combat to represent a swing of the sword?
The only reason 'roll to hit / roll for damage' is so popular is mental contagion from early entries into the genre, not because it's an inherently good way to model combat.
- Location
- NYC
There are plenty of ways to implement a combat system without a "roll-to-hit" mechanic. Seventh Sea 2nd edition, for example, has you roll for the total amount of stuff you can do each turn, which you can then choose to spend on hitting enemies, getting somewhere hard to reach, countering bad things that would otherwise happen to you, etc. There's a lot of design space with similar ideas: make the action economy the focus, where actions can't fail. Maybe have things resolve on some kind of more involved secret or open bidding system: you get X tokens/Round and can bid to do various Actions. Some Actions have a minimum bid to trigger (especially unopposed Actions). If someone opposes your Action, highest bid (plus modifiers) wins.
You could make that really pretty involved. Stats would determine maximum bid size on relevant actions, and your bonuses. Every Round would start with a Movement phase, and then go to an Interaction phase. Interactions include stuff like "attack X" "defend self" "combat trick X [which must be defended differently], etc." Maybe you have some cool individual actions like "read intention" which happens before other Interactions resolve, lets you know what action someone spent the most bids on, and then lets you move bids around.
I've only spent a few minutes thinking about this and it might not be fun at all to play, but this seems like a potentially pretty deep and interesting system, with a lot of room for stuff like Charms to be bolted on. In some cases, bidding also lets you active Charms (if you bid 10 on an attack, you get to activate 10 points of Charms), in other cases, Charms must be activated as an Action.
I also had an idea a whiles back for a combat system that represented phases of combat rather than individual exchanges: every combat would be resolved through five rolls, mirroring a traditional five act structure. This would be a much more narrative-focused system, but some people want to run Exalted as a much more narrative game.
Because otherwise, it doesn't feel like you're fighting, it feels like you're writing a combat scene.
The "act of fighting" is tied very closely to the high-sensory high-immersion feeling of "I raise my blade, I dodge aside, I cast a spell" blow-by-blow method of storytelling the scene. Backing out from that reduces immersion and reduces the feeling that you're actually fighting in any meaningful sense.
If you bid X tokens to hit someone and someone can counter that by bidding X+1 on their defense, that's fundamentally the same conceptual space as a "roll to hit".
- Location
- NYC
It is and it isn't. One is random. The other is deterministic. If bidding is both non-iterative and blind (each player makes one bid in secret and then reveals at the relevant time), then you're talking about something pretty fundamentally different from a traditional roll-to-hit system, which is a way to randomly determine (binary) success or failure based on predetermined stats and known powers used. It basically integrates the types of choices around Charm usage and mote expenditure into the core resolution system. The experience in play (from my experience with other bidding systems) is fundamentally pretty different from rolling dice.
- Location
- Virginia
- You aren't fighting; you are writing a combat scene.
- This is not actually true, and is just the result of several decades of brainwashing from, most egregiously, D&D, but also the other games that rely on it as a mechanic because it's "obvious".
For another example, Ex3 Sail (which has problems but ones that are not too difficult to patch of fix) is a combat system with no roll to hit.
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AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
Spells could be 'ritual' tag spells.
Peanut-007
Hat or Hair? America decides.
- Location
- Maryland, United States of America
Reading the Dragonblooded backers stuff and, Heavens Dragons seem like they could be really fun. I'm trying to figure out what they would do inside heaven.
After the Primordial War some Dragonblooded and mortal heroes were allowed to stay in Heaven. These clans have continued to the modern day in heavenly families that can trace their ancestry all the way back to the beginning of the rule of gods. This is not solely out of pride however, they must keep records of descent to prove they have permanent residency in heaven.
I can see them acting as a kind of mercenary force for gods wanting to act in Creation without getting their hands dirty, direct interference may be banned for gods but nothing stops the honorable Dragonblooded families from pursuing the interests of the family friend who visits for tea and refined political discussion alongside some wonderful gifts. Seeing as few of them are much concerned with the politics of Creation its fairly easy for a Heavenly Dragon to be brought onboard the side of nearly any conflict in Creation. They will never work with the Yozi or Deathlords however, that would risk exile from Yu-Shan.
They're arranged as clans descended from ancestor families allowed to stay in Heaven following the Primordial War. The main families of these clans are meticulous about inheritance and maintaining clear strong lines from their ancestors who were invited to Heaven down to them. The core families of Heavens Dragons are of frankly legendary breeding by the standards of the Realm, having only a few drops of mortal blood in their veins. The branch families are ones with less clear inheritance, recognized bastards and unaffiliated mortals and dragonblooded who "married in", and rely on the core families strong claim to protect them from expulsion in exchange for obedience to them.
A few independent Dragonblooded have appeared in the mortals brought to Heaven as slaves, servants, and amusements for the gods but they must either find a sponsor, either god or dragonblooded family, to protect their residency or risk expulsion from heaven. It is rare that a god shares the records of descent proving they were invited and that they or their ancestors did not sneak into Yu-Shan.
I could probably work this out better by writing up some citizenship and immigration laws for Yu-Shan. Something like All Gods and Sidereals are citizens barring special circumstances, Celestial and Terrestrial Exalts can visit Heaven relativley freely but are not citizens and require special patronage to keep independent residence in Yu-Shan, mortals are invitation only and are theoretically unallowed to be in Yu-Shan without a visa but it's never really considered big a deal if a god is keeping some mortal concubines and retainers on the down low. A few Dragonblooded and Mortal Heroes from the Primordial War were given permanent inheritable visas and just never went back.
I don't really have my thoughts in order on this yet. I'll have to look at it when I'm not sleepy.
After the Primordial War some Dragonblooded and mortal heroes were allowed to stay in Heaven. These clans have continued to the modern day in heavenly families that can trace their ancestry all the way back to the beginning of the rule of gods. This is not solely out of pride however, they must keep records of descent to prove they have permanent residency in heaven.
I can see them acting as a kind of mercenary force for gods wanting to act in Creation without getting their hands dirty, direct interference may be banned for gods but nothing stops the honorable Dragonblooded families from pursuing the interests of the family friend who visits for tea and refined political discussion alongside some wonderful gifts. Seeing as few of them are much concerned with the politics of Creation its fairly easy for a Heavenly Dragon to be brought onboard the side of nearly any conflict in Creation. They will never work with the Yozi or Deathlords however, that would risk exile from Yu-Shan.
They're arranged as clans descended from ancestor families allowed to stay in Heaven following the Primordial War. The main families of these clans are meticulous about inheritance and maintaining clear strong lines from their ancestors who were invited to Heaven down to them. The core families of Heavens Dragons are of frankly legendary breeding by the standards of the Realm, having only a few drops of mortal blood in their veins. The branch families are ones with less clear inheritance, recognized bastards and unaffiliated mortals and dragonblooded who "married in", and rely on the core families strong claim to protect them from expulsion in exchange for obedience to them.
A few independent Dragonblooded have appeared in the mortals brought to Heaven as slaves, servants, and amusements for the gods but they must either find a sponsor, either god or dragonblooded family, to protect their residency or risk expulsion from heaven. It is rare that a god shares the records of descent proving they were invited and that they or their ancestors did not sneak into Yu-Shan.
I could probably work this out better by writing up some citizenship and immigration laws for Yu-Shan. Something like All Gods and Sidereals are citizens barring special circumstances, Celestial and Terrestrial Exalts can visit Heaven relativley freely but are not citizens and require special patronage to keep independent residence in Yu-Shan, mortals are invitation only and are theoretically unallowed to be in Yu-Shan without a visa but it's never really considered big a deal if a god is keeping some mortal concubines and retainers on the down low. A few Dragonblooded and Mortal Heroes from the Primordial War were given permanent inheritable visas and just never went back.
I don't really have my thoughts in order on this yet. I'll have to look at it when I'm not sleepy.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If you're not playing a
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You know, theopunk needs a lot more love as an Exalted theme.
- Location
- Washington, USA
Because only associated mechanics enable roleplaying? On a related note, I found a better explanation for my deep aversion to the idea of making combat (or anything else, but usually combat) into a minigame that must always be fun, no matter the cost: The Alexandrian » Thought of the Day – Encounters and Railroading
I'm not sure if this analogy works, wouldn't shrines fit better?
I think that prayer wheels would be more like those take-a-penny leave-a-penny things, but with higher denominations.
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- Location
- Canada
Good luck coming up with a definition of an "associated mechanic" that doesn't break down under pressure. Traditional D&D combat breaks down real badly as soon as you think about it for two seconds. Basic mechanics, like HP, and taking turns, bear no resemblance to real situations.
I've spent some time thinking about how to make combat in RPGs interesting, and it's a tough problem. There are lots of good examples from the boardgaming world, but they're all based around fights between evenly matched opponents, typically 1v1, where both sides have a fair chance to win. In the D&D model, the PCs are overwhelmingly favoured to win every fight. They have to be, because there are going to be dozens and dozens of fights and losses tend to derail the plot and kill important characters.
The high level of randomness and hidden information in RPGs serves to obfuscate the real odds involved and allow the DM to fudge things when necessary. If you take that away, either the PCs get their asses kicked half the time, or the enemies will be obvious chumps. Video games get around this problem by letting players reload saves, but that's not an option on the tabletop. Exalted manages to have totally one-sided fights and lots of randomness, so I guess there's room for improvement? Game design is hard.
- Location
- Washington, USA
Definitions: The Alexandrian » Dissociated Mechanics – A Brief Primer
Realism: The Alexandrian » D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations (though personally I'm fond of GURPS, which goes even further on this in many ways)
I think "how to make combat interesting" is the wrong question. You need to make the game as a whole interesting. It helps that you stated three of the troublesome assumptions more or less explicitly: incessant violence with no real variation in the outcome, characters whose 'importance' renders them arbitrarily immune to plausible consequences of that violence, and the heart of it all, a sacrosanct railroad plot. Maybe the design process will get easier if you start by overturning some of those assumptions. The Alexandrian » Don't Prep Plots
- Location
- Virginia
You're going to have a hard time when you learn about stunts, then.
No, no, don't be so harsh on him. I'm not sure how he got an internet connection and a copy of Exalted back in 1985, but we can use this chance to warn him about the dark future of 2018 as well as pass on advancements in RPG gaming.
Edit: To add a little more content, the idea that rolls are an abstraction is... not new. 1985 is probably actually even too late for this, but it's a funny date and is the time of AD&D and THAC0, and screw that. The Storytelling system (the nWoD one) is part of the WW system clade, and that's one roll "to hurt" which combines hitting and damage.
And of course, the idea that one has to map one roll to one sword swing is nonsense even within Exalted 2e. Explicitly, for example, Adorjan's multi-attack charm is full on "filling the air with strikes" anime sword-fu, but it's resolved as a lesser number of attacks. Likewise, it's also nonsense in Mass Combat, or Social Combat (or anything else which uses minute-long ticks). And of course, when you broaden your scope, the extreme nature of the claim "only associated mechanic enable rollplaying" only becomes more obvious.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
It is my position that stunting is not a dissociated mechanic; it corresponds to real phenomena in the setting. To the extent that the mechanics of stunting require decisions, or influence decisions on other subjects, those correspond closely to decisions the character would also be making. To the extent that it involves OOC knowledge, that information corresponds to in-setting considerations the character could have understood and taken into account. I've got a fairly elaborate but, I think, well-supported theory of cosmology and soul-anatomy to back this up, if you're interested.
Do you have a counterargument, beyond the dismissive taunt? Any interest whatsoever in refining your own knowledge of the world through an intellectually honest debate? I was quoting from the 2e stunt rules in this same thread less than 24 hours ago.
I'm not convinced a debate with you is going to refine much knowledge at all, bluntly. You're not offering any new insights, and you are talking down to everyone with every post you make.
I regularly stunt my Withering attacks as two feints and then the actual strike, as well.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
Abstraction is not the same as dissociation. Please, I'm begging you, go read that essay (from the slightly-less-dark future of 2012) so we can synchronize our definitions of basic terms.
Why should we read some random essay dumped in the thread? That's a big chunk of our time. What value does it have? Summarize it, and maybe folks will consider it based on that.
Peanut-007
Hat or Hair? America decides.
- Location
- Maryland, United States of America
Oh sure. You're a devoted cultist for hire spreading the word of whatever god can pay to the masses, a private investigator wandering the seedy ivory streets for just a few more years rent on your tiny palace, and you're a heaven sent paladin ready to appear anywhere in creation to do any dirty job for the right price. It's bright street and grand splendor of Yu-Shan that the longest shadows get cast.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
Maybe telling people that they're acting disruptively or with a lack of civility is not a good idea, given your recent spate of unreasonable aggression in this very thread? (And I would have just PMed this, but locking your profile prevents you from being targeted so...)