So, I'm kinda skimming stuff here and there mostly because I'm as I'm reading this argument the only thing going through my head is this.

But in any event, uh.....I don't think Morke has anything to do with this? I mean, maybe there's some stuff I'm over looking, but I ran a search for Raksi in the 3E corebook and got like two references to her, neither of which mentioned her eating babies. I searched for babies and infants in general and mostly got Neomah.

Then I checked back with Lunars 2e and there's a mention of Raksi eating babies, but as far as I can tell, Morke's name isn't on the book.

I'd check 1e, but I don't have that book.

So I guess what I'm aiming for is I get that Morke isn't exactly well liked here nor are his contributions well regarded, but how about we stick to giving him shit over stuff he's actually responsible for?
I'm mostly going off how people (I thought better of you, Kaiya) are defending the baby-eating as a 3e thing, so somebody must have imported this legacy code into 3e with some level of official stamp of approval, and it really doesn't seem like Minton or Vance's style.
 
I'm mostly going off how people (I thought better of you, Kaiya) are defending the baby-eating as a 3e thing, so somebody must have imported this legacy code into 3e with some level of official stamp of approval, and it really doesn't seem like Minton or Vance's style.

Like I said, I just ran a search through the core book.

Raksi's only got a couple of off hand mentions. One in a side note about the ambidextrous merit, once as the named character for an example about Defining Principles, and once about how Ma-Ha-Suchi doesn't have time her shit or any other Lunar's.

Hell, I even checked Arms of the Chosen and there's nothing about her in there.

As far as I can tell, Raksi's goddamn name has barely been mentioned in 3e, much less her eating habits.
 
A large fraction (majority?) of powerful people you will run into - and probably negotiate with at some point - own chattel slaves or otherwise directly facilitate chattel slavery. Often the most vicious, brutal sort.

Your character is going to make a deal with Hitler.
And Exalted condemns this as awful by describing in detail exactly what chattel slavery entails, what markets you can buy and sell slaves at, what the process of slavery often requires and what kind of people that do this: The Guild and the Realm are the two premier purveyors of that particular vice. The thing about this is that the Realm is, almost per definition Not Good for the rest of Creation because it is literally an Empire and the other is a vicious trading syndicate that surely takes cards from with the playbooks of the Dutch and British East India Companies in addition to literally selling people to the Fair Folk. When I play Realm Dragon-Blooded, I do so with the understanding that I am benefiting from and taking part in a greater system of oppression, standing on top of the world with a boot down its throat. This is easy to rationalize, "I can't do anything anyways", "It's too big for me to change", "I want to change it from the inside", "Despite it's faults, I still think it is a net good to Creation". If you want Raksi to eat babies and be a nigh-unambiguous villain who practices a vice that is very hard to rationalize, go ahead my dude, I don't necessarily mind, I just want it to be clear that this very much makes her an enemy to rail against; a mad old beast or rabid monster, squatting in a wonder-city of the First Age. That's not inherently bad, but if you want her to be a bit more nuanced, it probably is.
 
Like I said, I just ran a search through the core book.

Raksi's only got a couple of off hand mentions. One in a side note about the ambidextrous merit, once as the named character for an example about Defining Principles, and once about how Ma-Ha-Suchi doesn't have time her shit or any other Lunar's.

Hell, I even checked Arms of the Chosen and there's nothing about her in there.

As far as I can tell, Raksi's goddamn name has barely been mentioned in 3e, much less her eating habits.
I know, but people were defending it as A 3e Thing, so the idea that Raksi is still a baby-eating monster must've come from somewhere. I assume it's Some Shit H&H said somewhere.
 
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If I had to keep that part of Raksi's rather limited characterisation, well, the easiest change to make would be to just substitute 'people' in place of 'babies'. Just, you know, age her victims up a bit? Cannibalism in general is more than enough to put her in the 'ancient and terrifying monster' camp, and you could even throw in something about the nearby tribes offering sacrifices of enemies captured in raids up to their terrifying goddess-queen because it's better than paying the tithe from their own people.

One change, and bam, Raksi is still a terrifying and powerful monster that you might seek out for access to her secrets, she's still the disturbingly beautiful goddess-queen who serves you plates of suspicious-looking meats on golden platters and expects you to eat it, only now you can actually involve her in a game without the majority of your players looking at you-the-ST as though you were fucking sick in the head.
 
And Exalted condemns this as awful by describing in detail exactly what chattel slavery entails, what markets you can buy and sell slaves at, what the process of slavery often requires and what kind of people that do this: The Guild and the Realm are the two premier purveyors of that particular vice. The thing about this is that the Realm is, almost per definition Not Good for the rest of Creation because it is literally an Empire and the other is a vicious trading syndicate that surely takes cards from with the playbooks of the Dutch and British East India Companies in addition to literally selling people to the Fair Folk. When I play Realm Dragon-Blooded, I do so with the understanding that I am benefiting from and taking part in a greater system of oppression, standing on top of the world with a boot down its throat. This is easy to rationalize, "I can't do anything anyways", "It's too big for me to change", "I want to change it from the inside", "Despite it's faults, I still think it is a net good to Creation". If you want Raksi to eat babies and be a nigh-unambiguous villain who practices a vice that is very hard to rationalize, go ahead my dude, I don't necessarily mind, I just want it to be clear that this very much makes her an enemy to rail against; a mad old beast or rabid monster, squatting in a wonder-city of the First Age. That's not inherently bad, but if you want her to be a bit more nuanced, it probably is.

I'm not really a fan of preserving Raksi's baby-eating either, but I think people are underselling the "rationalizability" of the baby-eating because it's weird. It's, well, as described by Vance much less bad than slavery or many of the other things the Realm does. She guides, shelters, and protects her people (at least, those who are obedient and respectful, of course); in return, she takes the occasional child, who might well have died of hunger or disease in the next few years anyway. And, hey, one less mouth to feed. It's a fair deal! Far more generous than other rulers.

It may not seem nuanced to the person she does it in front of, but that's her entire purpose in doing it.

(Meanwhile, consider the rationalization that must be going through the head of the overseer as he cracks his whip. Or in the heads of the PCs as they watch. That really is no less un-nuanced villainy.)
 
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(Meanwhile, consider the rationalization that must be going through the head of the overseer as he cracks his whip. Or in the heads of the PCs as they watch. That really is no less un-nuanced villainy.)

It's not a matter of evil. It's a matter of basic taste.

To be honest, my response to someone eating babies for the sole purpose of messing with people is mostly just contempt. Not specifically in Exalted, just in general. I can't feel horrified, or if I do it's mostly buried under the immense amount of disdain.

It's just so fucking tacky.
Chattel slavery is one thing. It's awful and honestly causes a hell of a lot more suffering than mandating occasional baby eating over negotiations. But it's a human kind of awful, not a ridiculous caricature of a person. I can engage with that properly, whether it be via horror, outrage or whatever else. I don't have to deal with the overwhelming disgust that I'd feel towards Raksi's complete lack of class or taste.

It's approaching the realm of things like necrotech abominations shaped like obese women that shoot exploding fetuses out of their vaginas or the nonexistent chapters one and two of Infernals or Underworld brothels where the ghosts of rapists are mutilated and then forced to raped.

For fuck's sake, she is literally eating babies.
 
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Yes, you've made this point already, as evidenced by the fact that you are literally quoting your own post. Other people - such as the person I was responding to - are framing the problem in terms of evil and villainy.
 
Yes, you've made this point already, as evidenced by the fact that you are literally quoting your own post. Other people - such as the person I was responding to - are framing the problem in terms of evil and villainy.

Sorry dude, sometimes arguments in this thread reach a point where that's necessary. That said:

He wasn't, though? He was addressing nuance i.e. if you want people to interact with her in more ways that violence, have her be a bit more engageable than shoving her baby eating ways in your face and forcing you to participate, as far as I can tell. Which related back into the point about taste. Chattel slavery is a human evil. Someone that wants you and your friends to join her in eating a dinner made of little Timmy is not.
 
I'm mostly going off how people (I thought better of you, Kaiya) are defending the baby-eating as a 3e thing, so somebody must have imported this legacy code into 3e with some level of official stamp of approval, and it really doesn't seem like Minton or Vance's style.
How about you save the judgement? I'm not gonna apologize for wanting ancient baby eating Witch-Queens in my mythic fantasy.
 
Which related back into the point about taste. Chattel slavery is a human evil. Someone that wants you and your friends to join her in eating a dinner made of little Timmy is not.
Your concept of what a 'human' is capable of is sorely lacking. Expand your horizons and you will see that there is no limit to human evil.
 
I am so confused about why the reactions on this topic are so heated. If it's a matter of a trigger then I apologize, but short of that I... don't get it?

It seems rather easy to justify in setting to me. Not good, but it's easy to understand why she would.

"After all, when you've walked in a thousand skins why should you give preference to one species of hairless apes over any other. What of Veal? What of Lamb? Should I be a vegetarian? Please, with a little bit of effort I could take the shape of a fern as well. I have lived long enough to see nations rise and fall. I have seen cities where consuming chicken was considered as taboo as you'd see consuming dog or monkey.

I am Exalted. The laws of mortals have no sway over me. Only the Solar Dominion can claim authority over me, and since the Usurpation? Well, they've proven their weakness.

If you object? Well, then I welcome you to come and try to prove your point with force of arms. Otherwise, I have no interest in your crying."
 
Alternatively, don't even try to justify actual baby-eating. If you want to keep it around, take a hacksaw to it and make something new. Maybe it's Immaculate propaganda used to villify her. Maybe it's a Janissery type deal, where her cults raid neighbouring settlements and steal the children to metaphorically devour them by moulding them into perfect servants because all they know as they grow up is tending Raksi's library, à la "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man."
I'm not gonna apologize for wanting ancient baby eating Witch-Queens in my mythic fantasy.

Look, if you really want a baby-eating Witch-Queen, then have her actually act something like her inspirations:

It's a bed time story amongst the people that live in her lands that Raksi takes disobedient children away to gobble up in her lair. And while that's ridiculous, the jungle isn't the sort of place that's kind to kids that don't listen to their parents.

So if your party asks about it, she'll laugh and say that it's just a silly urban legend meant to scare little boys and girls and hey, look at all this cool shit I've got. And she's so charming and it really does seem absurd, doesn't it? There's no point wasting time and ruffling feathers on a wild goose chase.

You can enjoy the company of this Witch-Queen, make a equitable deal that leaves everyone satisfied and count her among your acquaintances as you continue onward, none of which are minor things.

Or you could take a closer look.

Your choice.

-

And that gives room for the ST to do whatever they like with that. Maybe it is just a dumb story. Maybe it's not. Whatever you want. Because that's how reality works. Most of the monsters are not so kind as to loudly announce their evil to the world.
 
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I'd like to clarify that this post only covers my objection to Raksi eating babies from the perspective of her as a narrative tool that is meant to be used. It is not a statement that because eating babies is morally wrong no character in a story should have any such trait.

So, I get that part of why Exalted purposefully creates all of these people who do horrible things but also have lots of stuff your character wants is so you can make deals with the devil that force players to think about how important morality is to them, and what that says about them as people, but the way Raksi is written, even with the changes that 3E made (might make?), that doesn't really apply to her. Yes, she is a very good resource of all kinds of knowledge, has lots of cool shit stockpiled, and is a very formidable ally to have, but unless you're trying to have a story line that is specifically about how morally corrupt your character has become, or players are actively trying to overthrow/reform her, none of that really matters.

Because the problem with Raksi the baby-eater as a resource of basically anything that players might be tempted to bargain for is not that eating babies prevents her from always being an option that they must consider, but that it makes her technically always an option they must consider, and no more than that.

Whenever you deal with her you're going to pay two prices, the first is, of course, the moral price of associating with someone who eats new born children, and second is the actual price for her assistance; because no matter what you ask her for, unless you've already done her a favor in advance she is going to want something in exchange. The net result of this is that, yes she is always an option, but she's not an option players will ever really take because, as the thread established earlier, there are other people who they can strike deals with, other people who will also want things in return, but not also be performing cannibalism on infants.

Many of these people also will have their own moral baggage, maybe they're slavers, maybe they've murdered thousands of people, maybe they habitually perform awful experiments on people that leave them dead or wishing that they were, but Raksi has done those things too. She is never the best option, or the only option, and so while she may always be there lurking in the background, she isn't an option that will be taken. She'll just sit there, forever, letting you feel better about the fact that you're working hand in hand someone who has enslaved thousands of people, because at least your trade partner doesn't also eat babies.
 
Wait, wait, wait.

Vance is the one describing this? What the shit? Source, please?
Here.

Raksi eats babies because it was mentioned she was a cannibal in 1e, and then some enterprising 2e writer decided to make it stupid and bad, as 2e writers were wont to do. I don't know why they would bring it back for 3e. I remember reading this exact same argument in the Exalted thread on SA years ago between SLS and a bunch of posters there and that fact - that it was a 2e innovation - was the ultimate point at which that argument concluded, to the best of my recollection.
 
And Exalted condemns this as awful by describing in detail exactly what chattel slavery entails, what markets you can buy and sell slaves at, what the process of slavery often requires and what kind of people that do this: The Guild and the Realm are the two premier purveyors of that particular vice. The thing about this is that the Realm is, almost per definition Not Good for the rest of Creation because it is literally an Empire and the other is a vicious trading syndicate that surely takes cards from with the playbooks of the Dutch and British East India Companies in addition to literally selling people to the Fair Folk. When I play Realm Dragon-Blooded, I do so with the understanding that I am benefiting from and taking part in a greater system of oppression, standing on top of the world with a boot down its throat. This is easy to rationalize, "I can't do anything anyways", "It's too big for me to change", "I want to change it from the inside", "Despite it's faults, I still think it is a net good to Creation". If you want Raksi to eat babies and be a nigh-unambiguous villain who practices a vice that is very hard to rationalize, go ahead my dude, I don't necessarily mind, I just want it to be clear that this very much makes her an enemy to rail against; a mad old beast or rabid monster, squatting in a wonder-city of the First Age. That's not inherently bad, but if you want her to be a bit more nuanced, it probably is.

If that's your complaint, then I think you've got it backwards. Because Raksi is consistently portrayed as very evil, and the books occasionally lapse into Guild/Realm apologia.

Much as I like MoJ, I have to admit there's a bit where it straight-up calls the Guild good.
 
How about you save the judgement? I'm not gonna apologize for wanting ancient baby eating Witch-Queens in my mythic fantasy.
I am so confused about why the reactions on this topic are so heated. If it's a matter of a trigger then I apologize, but short of that I... don't get it?
Like I said before, I don't have strong feelings on the matter of a character eating babies in a game, especially if they don't consider themselves to be a member of the same species or view mortals as being beneath them.
What I had a problem with is that @Kaiya was trying to present it as her eating babies for the explicit purpose of intimidating people, which I find pathetic and insulting.
 
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If that's your complaint, then I think you've got it backwards. Because Raksi is consistently portrayed as very evil, and the books occasionally lapse into Guild/Realm apologia.

Much as I like MoJ, I have to admit there's a bit where it straight-up calls the Guild good.
It's not my point of contention, I have far more than that, I just wanted to make this very explicit because I don't really feel you can make a nuanced or interesting character that starts from a position of "ALSO SHE EATS BABIES".
 
Well that sounds significantly less stupid and pointlessly edgy than the impression I got. It sounds like something that she could just as easily decide to not do as she could to do it, and is a deliberate and calculated move she reserves for official meetings with fellow Exalts or equally important guests. Further down in the thread, he even says that Raksi "has use for being feared, as well as for being hated."

So faaaaar from being something she pulls out whenever someone comes to talk to her in order to intimidate the other party and rub in their faces how powerful she is and they can't do anything to stop her, its a deliberate move to throw the party off their game or incite a reaction. It allows enough intelligence and intent that an ST can say that she doesn't do it, because she decides for whatever reason that doing so won't give her an advantage, or they can say she does it, and have the Circle's social master Read Intentions to reveal that she is doing it because she wants you to be pissed of, because she thinks that would give her an edge in the discussion.

In addition, because its explicitly noted that its "a power move she reserves for when she's going to be having an official meeting with fellow Lunars or others of similar importance;" you could easily replace the "power move" version with @samdamandias 's idea about her legitimately thinking that she's being a good host by serving her guests a rare delicacy.
 
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This is what we've been saying the whole time. Vance's comment right there is what we've been talking about!
*looks back through discussion*

Well, it got mentioned once towards the beginning, and then its swiftly devolved into how Raksi eating babies is totally a thing she should do for a variety of presented reasons, which is what I at least have been disagreeing with this whole time.

My impression of Vance's comment was that "fucking with people" > "eating babies," and therefore there is absolutely no need to have Raksi eat babies. Being a baby-eating monster is not a central or even necessary aspect of Raksi's character; doing something horrific to shock the other party is. Thus, eating babies can be trivially replaced with something else that is still horrible but not tacky.
 
After the gates of Troy were thrown open for the Achaians,

Neoptolemus, son of Achilles, murdered Priam at his family altar of Zeus and then took Andromache, Hector's widow, as a prize.
Ajax the Lesser dragged Cassandra, Priam's daughter' away from the statue of the militantly virgin goddess Athena in her temple and violated her
Menelaus captured and mutilated Deiphobus, third husband of Helen, leading to his death
Odysseus, hero of the Odyssey, threw Astyanax, infant son of Hector, from a high place down onto rocks

The royal women were apportioned as prizes, except for Priam's daughter Polyxena who was sacrificed on the tomb of Achilies. Cassandra would be given to Agamemnon and promptly murdered along with him upon their return to Argos by his wife and her lover, because he sacrificed their daughter to Artemis in order to be able to leave to go to Troy and possibly replaced her with this girl of the same age. (As a ghost he would complain about how his wife being unfaithful was proof that all women were liars and couldn't be trusted)

The city was burned to the ground, and the slaughter and other terrible things can be guessed.

Tantalus served his own son to the gods to prove he could trick them.
Lycaon did exactly the same thing
Atreus, father of Agamemnon and Menelaus, served his brother the bodies of his brother's sons because they couldn't agree who would become king.
Procne served her husband Tereus their son Itys as revenge for him raping her sister and cutting out her tongue.


It isn't like the annals of myth aren't filled with people who did horrible things who were nevertheless honored or main characters.
 
Here.

Raksi eats babies because it was mentioned she was a cannibal in 1e, and then some enterprising 2e writer decided to make it stupid and bad, as 2e writers were wont to do. I don't know why they would bring it back for 3e. I remember reading this exact same argument in the Exalted thread on SA years ago between SLS and a bunch of posters there and that fact - that it was a 2e innovation - was the ultimate point at which that argument concluded, to the best of my recollection.
Sigh. I mean, that's not quite as bad as this discussion made out, but it's still fundamentally exactly the thing ('this person eats babies at the negotiating table, purely to get a rise out of her debating opponents') I've been arguing is tacky, edgelord trying-too-hard writing. I wish Vance had left it at "but I think odds are you've heard rumors." and leaned hard on that angle. I'm really surprised he's saying this at all, and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's abiding by some behind-closed-doors discussions with H&H about what material to grandfather in, but even if that's the case, it's still just a different flavour of bad.
 
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