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General Exalted Thread

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Carrnage said:
Did the solars put all that effort into every object they made? and were all their objects forged with techniques that are possible with solars at their height?
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My normal answer to the Artifacts/First Age Wonders question is to drop the idea that all magical that a PC could acquire/build can be found on a 5+1 point scale. They figured this out in nWod, even if it wasn't well implemented at times, and Artifact is certainly the background most in need of an expanded scale. Thanks to how it works right now you have, within the same tier, different objects which are all very different in scale: a Heavy Battlecruiser, Teleportation Network, Thousand Forged Dragon, Flying Battle City, and the Realm Defense Grid.

I prefer to lop off the bottom of the scale and make the Quick Quotes Quills, stat sticks(common Daiklaves and artifact armor without special powers), and other cool one shot items purchasable by Resources. Lower level artifacts are either minor miraculous effects or are used as components for grander devices.

It stops people from having immense background bloat just to be considered ready and lets the scale expand to the point where the minor 'lost Wonders', like battle cruisers or very limited teleporters, could be built and maintained in the Second Age, with more effort than it's likely worth by itself, while leaving the true Wonders out of reach.

Carrnage said:
you miss my point Technology doesn't have tiers it has components, advanced fission reactors are merely boilers for steam turbines that have been largely unchanged since coal electric generators. and even the most advanced societies still make use of primitive tools and techniques because those techniques work.
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The greater wonders could be Artifact 6-10, with crafting requirements that are impossible to reach without the backing of Yu-Shan or the entire Realm. These would need to consume large numbers of other Artifacts to make, something that you'd need a large number of DragonBlooded to working around the clock to make sure you get right.

The advanced Essence Reactor which allows someone to wander around with power that took an entire manse to create would be constructed from many artifact 1-3 components and a spark of Solar genius which makes cold fusi- I mean portable essence explosions that don't damage anything.
 
Graveless said:
The greater wonders could be Artifact 6-10, with crafting requirements that are impossible to reach without the backing of Yu-Shan or the entire Realm. These would need to consume large numbers of other Artifacts to make, something that you'd need a large number of DragonBlooded to working around the clock to make sure you get right.

The advanced Essence Reactor which allows someone to wander around with power that took an entire manse to create would be constructed from many artifact 1-3 components and a spark of Solar genius which makes cold fusi- I mean portable essence explosions that don't damage anything.
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Either i communicated very badly or this is a non-sequitur. my point isn't the nuclear reactor it's the steam turbine, imagine a genius craftsman that knows how to make steam piston engines if they examine a nuclear power plant no-one expects them to figure out fusion, they may however figure out steam turbines.
 
Carrnage said:
Either i communicated very badly or this is a non-sequitur. my point isn't the nuclear reactor it's the steam turbine, imagine a genius craftsman that knows how to make steam piston engines if they examine a nuclear power plant no-one expects them to figure out fusion, they may however figure out steam turbines.
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I probably communicated badly as well because that was what I meant.

The super advanced, you can no longer make these with the tools you possess, wonders could be very well represented by having lesser Artifacts as components, which is something that the existing rules also support. These could be learned from and reused, either directly or as part of another design, but the core incredibly advanced piece would not.
 
Shyft said:
The main thing/difference between 2e sorcery and 3e sorcery, was that in 2e, the onus of 'deforming' the game/setting around the sorcerer lied with the Storyteller. If you are a sorcerer or a sorcerer is in the local environment, that is an impactful thing. This tied into Sorcerers, while not being 'rare', were also exceptional enough to be Notable.

Like, Infallible Messenger is one of the best one-way communication methods in the game. It's as secure as the sorcerer's loyalty/professional standards are, fast and nearly impossible to intercept or prevent. A kingdom that employs a court sorcerer just for sending messages is an amazing force multiplier.

Then you get into stuff like summoning automatons, raising fortifications in a few hours, knocking down castle doors or summoning plagues of bronze snakes. Sorcerers are WEIRD and DRAMATIC... but only if the Storyteller bothers to remember that.

In 3e, which is arguably a good design decision that is equally limp-wristed, is that it puts the onus of dramatic influence on the Workings System. By mechanizing the Big Things a sorcerer can do as complicated projects, it creates a mnemonic that players and storytellers can refer to. "Oh yeah you Made this thing so I remember it and can now track how it works with its traits."

That's not exactly a bad thing, but it lacks a certain kind of creative alchemy that the 2e approach aimed for. Note that 2e failed, but it's approach was not itself a bad idea.
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Shyft, can you explain your point here a little more? Workings exist now, but sorcerers still have all of the stuff you were talking about earlier.

Sanctaphrax said:
Not a flaw. If you don't want to be made weird by your control spell, you shouldn't have to be.
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Sanctaphrax said:
Other people want to play sorcerers without being made weird, at least in that specific way, and it'd be daft to stop them for your sake.
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Sanctaphrax said:
Yes, sometimes you have to tell people they can't do things. But you need a much better reason to say no than to say yes. And a minor thematic point is not a good enough reason to shut down a significant number of people.
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The weirdness of sorcerers isn't a minor thematic point. It's a big part of the sorcerous experience and it is consistently reinforced in basically any place in the core that talks about them. If that's a thing you don't like for your games, then more power to you, but the books are fairly insistent on it.

Shyft said:
Sure, but that's a ham-fisted approach to it and for good or ill, 1e and 2e expected more of its playerbase to achieve its end. It works, don't get me wrong, but like with a lot of my frustrations with 3e, it's inelegant.
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Personally, I find the weirdness levers presented by initiations, shaping rituals, and sorcerous merits are pretty damn elegant.

Xyzarach said:
A sorcerer should be strange and alien because of the things they done for power and how that has changed then, but when it becomes something directly physical rather than cultural or behavioral, it becomes something that gets lost in the weirdness already present in Creation, such that nobody would think twice if you pass it of as a spirit blood mutation or body-art.
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This is covered by the initiations, shaping rituals, and sorcerous merits.

Cosar said:
It doesn't quite work: workings seem to require you to commit XP for each instance, while Thaumaturgy was more like an ability.
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One thing to keep in mind is that if a Working stops being relevant to the story you get that XP back.
 
I only grabbed the two lines directly relevant to me.
SerGregness said:
Shyft, can you explain your point here a little more? Workings exist now, but sorcerers still have all of the stuff you were talking about earlier. Personally, I find the weirdness levers presented by initiations, shaping rituals, and sorcerous merits are pretty damn elegant.
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Alright, so fundamentally I'm a big fan of Borgstromancy, which is more accurately described as Mechanical Metaphor. A lot of 3e's presentation strips out mechanical metaphor in favor of a very scattershot 'it is or it isn't' approach to design. The initiation/ritual/sorcerous merits are only elegant insofar as they're explicit. They're telling instead of showing. Sometimes you have to do it that way for the sake of a clear game experience, but I think we all can agree that 3e has a Natural Language thing running through it in various sections.

So yes, Sorcerers still have a lot of 2e spells- but the thing that 2e failed to deliver on but was in my mind better, was that it encouraged and relied (sadly too much) on players and storytellers applying critical thinking and cause-effect logic to their actions and capabiltiies. Exalted 3e has so far depreciated that in favor of explicit 'wierdness values' like the Control Spell mechanic and its various VFX quirks. Acknowledging that we haven't gotten a proper Sorcery book or even any setting books in 3e, I don't know how much time is going to be spent trying to explain Sorcerer Setting Impact and Gameplay.

Like... one of 3e's problems is that schematizes narrative in its mechanics. It codified what are logically narrative and scene-direction events into it's Charms and other mechanics to the detriment of arming players and storytellers with the tools to do it themselves.

Now believe me, I wanted something like Workings for most of 2e. I don't like how 3e did it, but the concept is sound. We're probably not going to agree on 2e v 3e at this point, so I'd rather not poke sore spots and frustrate everyone.
 
SerGregness said:
One thing to keep in mind is that if a Working stops being relevant to the story you get that XP back.
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Yes, but you still have to commit more xp if you want to do it again, or multiple payments if you want to do it multiple times. It's also more permanent than thaumaturgy is generally presented as. Not to mention timing oddities or the other oddities.

You can use workings to mimic some effects, but that's because the system is entirely freeform with effects almost entirely at the ST's discretion. It's not because the system is written to have those effects, and quite often the way it's written is explicitly counter to how thaumaturgy worked.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying the working system is bad. Just that it doesn't really work as something to replace 2ed thaumaturgy, either thematically or mechanically.
 
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Shyft said:
I only grabbed the two lines directly relevant to me.


Alright, so fundamentally I'm a big fan of Borgstromancy, which is more accurately described as Mechanical Metaphor. A lot of 3e's presentation strips out mechanical metaphor in favor of a very scattershot 'it is or it isn't' approach to design. The initiation/ritual/sorcerous merits are only elegant insofar as they're explicit. They're telling instead of showing. Sometimes you have to do it that way for the sake of a clear game experience, but I think we all can agree that 3e has a Natural Language thing running through it in various sections.

So yes, Sorcerers still have a lot of 2e spells- but the thing that 2e failed to deliver on but was in my mind better, was that it encouraged and relied (sadly too much) on players and storytellers applying critical thinking and cause-effect logic to their actions and capabiltiies. Exalted 3e has so far depreciated that in favor of explicit 'wierdness values' like the Control Spell mechanic and its various VFX quirks. Acknowledging that we haven't gotten a proper Sorcery book or even any setting books in 3e, I don't know how much time is going to be spent trying to explain Sorcerer Setting Impact and Gameplay.

Like... one of 3e's problems is that schematizes narrative in its mechanics. It codified what are logically narrative and scene-direction events into it's Charms and other mechanics to the detriment of arming players and storytellers with the tools to do it themselves.

Now believe me, I wanted something like Workings for most of 2e. I don't like how 3e did it, but the concept is sound. We're probably not going to agree on 2e v 3e at this point, so I'd rather not poke sore spots and frustrate everyone.
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I agree about not wanting to get too deep into the weeds here, as I have no illusions about either of us changing the other's tastes. That said, there's a reason those two lines were separated in the original post. I was only really arguing the 'elegance' of initiations/rituals/merits in the context of how they lead to sorcerers being unnerving. Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks to me like the 'carrot, not stick' approach Earthscorpion is constantly using as a touchstone for all his various sorcery writings. Maybe you don't think those are elegant either, but that's not the impression I ever got.

I appreciate that you expanded a bit on the impact comment, but I think your reply got a little muddled in trying to talk about the weirdness factors which I don't think are connected on the same axis. It's easy to imagine a setting in which sorcerers are every bit as weird as in exalted, but without the same impact on the setting as a whole if the actual spells and powers were very much worse or more common. Your chief complaint seemed to be that while 2e relied on the ST to remember that sorcerers are a Big Deal and that they have powers that are incredibly rare and useful, Ex3's Workings rules somehow makes that not the case anymore. The section of your original post didn't bring up weirdness at all.

Now, I don't see how the addition of workings really changes the dynamic of 'it's up to your group to realize that sorcerers are important'. Workings are chiefly an increase in flexibility and usability rather than raw power (I'd argue the same is true of most of Ex3's sorcery changes, but that's tangent to my point). Given that, I could buy into the argument that it's easier to make an impact specifically as a PC sorcerer in Ex3 since it's just less of a pain in the ass to play one, but as far as powers go it's the same infallible messenger as ever. There's all the fluff text all over the book talking up how much of an asset a sorcerer is, but as far as mechanics go, I don't see any mechanical widget that would fit the bill of what you were talking about in your first post. This is the question I was asking before. The impression I've always had is that the stuff you can do with workings is stuff you were always supposed to be able to do as a sorcerer in previous editions, but were never quite enabled to. You now have the ability, but realizing it's impact on the setting is still left as much an exercise for the player as it ever was (ignoring passages talking about its impact in setting fluff and so on, as that's present in both editions and so I'm assuming is not the issue here).
 
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Carrnage said:
Did the solars put all that effort into every object they made? and were all their objects forged with techniques that are possible with solars at their height?
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They did, and they didn't.

In the High First Age, that stuff wasn't actually that hard to do! Setting up a custom area of fate is not something to be done casually, but with Sidereals enabling you and Adamant Circle Sorcery it's certainly doable without nearly as much trouble as it would be in the current age. You don't need to conquer nearby kingdoms for irreproducible first age materials if its the first age and you can just trade for them. And while assembling 77 dragonblooded is definitely a challenge, it's a lot less of one when the Dragonblooded are subservient to the Solars instead of actively hostile towards them. It would be the kind of thing where you need to put in active work, but not so much its a major campaign piece.

Unfortunately, the first age is fallen, so these things are fuckin' hard. And also, these are vasically just there for "players will bitch about it if Wonders can't be made/repaired" - I'd be fine with just saying "the high end artifacts from the first age are impossible to forge anew", but I know several people who would be mad not being able to craft whatever, but fine as long as it has rules, even.
 
tzar1990 said:
They did, and they didn't.

In the High First Age, that stuff wasn't actually that hard to do! Setting up a custom area of fate is not something to be done casually, but with Sidereals enabling you and Adamant Circle Sorcery it's certainly doable without nearly as much trouble as it would be in the current age. You don't need to conquer nearby kingdoms for irreproducible first age materials if its the first age and you can just trade for them. And while assembling 77 dragonblooded is definitely a challenge, it's a lot less of one when the Dragonblooded are subservient to the Solars instead of actively hostile towards them. It would be the kind of thing where you need to put in active work, but not so much its a major campaign piece.

Unfortunately, the first age is fallen, so these things are fuckin' hard. And also, these are vasically just there for "players will bitch about it if Wonders can't be made/repaired" - I'd be fine with just saying "the high end artifacts from the first age are impossible to forge anew", but I know several people who would be mad not being able to craft whatever, but fine as long as it has rules, even.
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And you missed my point, are modern houses all built exclusively using the most advanced technology availiable for which primitive societies have no equivalent? Or do they use hammers nails hinges and wood that has been existant in some form for millenia?

Just because something is from the first age doesnt make it esoteric hypertexh requiring the most advanced technology of the age, not everything today is the large hadron collider or a fusion experiment.
 
Shyft said:
@EarthScorpion - Your addition to the discussion is insightful, but I have to point out that it's not as helpful as you might think. I started this whole thing trying to keep people from falling into the 'it's awful' bandwagon, which is just as unhelpful. I definitely agree that your examples should be things that happen and that a wider breadth of 'Cool Stuff' should be available for players.

Anyway, the root of my initial question/goal here is to develop thought on what 'Is' magitech, and if there actually is a qualitative trait that can be meaningfully expanded in both mechanics and setting. If there isn't, what could one be? The fact is, I was sold on and love a lot of what was presented as Magitech in Exalted, but I agree that it's not done well right now. The solution may very well be to remove it from the game's lexicon and replace it with something else. If that solution works for you, awesome. I'm not there yet.
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Correct. I came years ago to the viewpoint that magitech was just an aesthetic, and there's no difference between a cybernetically implanted set of eyes that can see fire essence and an elaborate flame-shaped tattoo on the forehead that enlightens the bearer to the nature of fire essence. A Second Age Solar can make a clockwork automaton and that's just a different skin for a golem animated by putting a scroll with a prayer to the Sun in its head. A warstrider is a golem is an engineered Tyranid-esque monster is a animate crystal controlled by song.

Therefore, if we are to dress it up on in-game lore, "magitech" is artificery that evokes and makes use of Autochthonic principles woven into the fabric of Creation when it was made. As a result, it was favoured in the High First Age because it was much more politically acceptable to make use of 'laws of reality' that originated from Autochthon, and at least in the early First Age it was considered more dubious to work on symbiotic living plants due to the Metagoyin principles they originated by (also, it made everything look like the Flood or the Infested or the Tyranids, etc) or a crystal Pyrian-principle thing.

But when it comes down to it, it's fundamentally something based off "this is something a PC should be able to build in early-to-mid-game" (Second Age), "this is something that a PC should be able to repair or repurpose if given the resources or maybe even manufacture in late game" (Shogunate), or "this is pure magic that the PC can maybe jury-rig into working, but you can't build it anew in a standard game" (High First Age). And some people might want their war High First Age golems to be all mechanical looking and some might want them to look like Warframes and some might want them to be the Golden Army from Hellboy II, so just focus on getting the mechanics right and then just toss in an aesthetic layer over the top.
 
EarthScorpion said:
and at least in the early First Age it was considered more dubious to work on symbiotic living plants due to the Metagoyin principles they originated by (also, it made everything look like the Flood or the Infested or the Tyranids, etc) or a crystal Pyrian-principle thing.
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Weren't living plants and crystals also the aesthetic of the Dragon Kings as well?

Which in and of itself would be a good reason to move away from plants and crystals as technology by rejecting what the former (direct) rulers of humanity favored
 
fitzgerald said:
Weren't living plants and crystals also the aesthetic of the Dragon Kings as well?

Which in and of itself would be a good reason to move away from plants and crystals as technology by rejecting what the former (direct) rulers of humanity favored
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Nah, First Age Solars should have giant spires of Dragon's crystal that capture, amplify and focus brilliant light of Sol and blind mortals in radius of miles as standard issue. They liked the Dragons as allies and mentors.

To contribute: the basic distinction for me is size and accessibility. Could I build it only with direction-spanning industrial supply chain and support of Wyld-shaped resources? Then it's magitech; it might me a sword re-forged million-millions times using time anomaly sustained by hundred-strong manse grid constantly pumping Essence to break basic law of reality. It could be mile-long Arc etched with Soulsteel-Orichalum-Moonsilver alloy to change metaphysical nature of Underworld and Shadows around a city.

Incidentally, I have a question about @EarthScorpion Infernals - what access to all Hell resources change? Could Infernal crafters build things vastly more powerful and ambitious in Hell, using Unquestionable' resource base?

Also, what would be limits on taking artifice from Hell to Creation? I know Keris' ship is giant piece of powerful artifice that can travel between Hell and Creation.If we take it to logical extrapolation, what stops Infernal from collaborating with Ligier to use all the forges of Hell and flood Creation with basic golems made of Malfean brass?
 
Mostlt what's stopping you is Ligier laughing in your face if you DID suggested it. He's got more important shit to do. Keris got him to repair her ship by bringing him back a gigantic bounty of Rahkasha so he could use them as building components. Most of the Infernal's won't have things to garner his aid with.
 
Bel said:
Mostlt what's stopping you is Ligier laughing in your face if you DID suggested it. He's got more important shit to do. Keris got him to repair her ship by bringing him back a gigantic bounty of Rahkasha so he could use them as building components. Most of the Infernal's won't have things to garner his aid with.
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More important thing that re-conquering Creation, project that he invested massive resources already (creation of Lilunu, training of Infernals, political favours to gather 3rd Circles demons).. yeah, I see how he would laugh at plan that could give Hell massive strategic advantage.

He will laugh and twirl his moustache.
 
changeling said:
More important thing that re-conquering Creation, project that he invested massive resources already (creation of Lilunu, training of Infernals, political favours to gather 3rd Circles demons).. yeah, I see how he would laugh at plan that could give Hell massive strategic advantage.

He will laugh and twirl his moustache.
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Ligier didn't invest shit. That was the Yozis, who then told their sub-souls what to do.

And he would laugh at you because you don't have Ligier make "basic golems" when he could be creating works of legend and story. Go gather up some Fervid Smiths or go whine to Aluvela and build your own forges if you want mass produced crap (relatively speaking) that badly.
 
changeling said:
Incidentally, I have a question about @EarthScorpion Infernals - what access to all Hell resources change? Could Infernal crafters build things vastly more powerful and ambitious in Hell, using Unquestionable' resource base?

Also, what would be limits on taking artifice from Hell to Creation? I know Keris' ship is giant piece of powerful artifice that can travel between Hell and Creation.If we take it to logical extrapolation, what stops Infernal from collaborating with Ligier to use all the forges of Hell and flood Creation with basic golems made of Malfean brass?
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Ligier doesn't have control over all the forges of Hell. He has his own assets - and most of them are committed. I've been entirely clear that the Third Circles are a bunch of constantly feuding godlings. Yes, over five millennia Ligier has made a truly impressive array of weapon systems. He's also used most of them against other Third Circles. They've already been expended.

For example, in Kerisgame, Ligier and Ululaya are currently at war. Occasionally while travelling around Hell, Keris has seen vast aerial battles between their forces. Both of them have burned through tens of thousands of first circle demons and lots of materiel in a squabble over their relative positions in the skies of Hell after Ululaya eclipsed him.

Fundamentally, I've been consistent that Hell is fractious and the Third Circles spend at least as much time working against each other as against anyone else - and their capacity to project force is limited. After all, Creation is five days away while that bastard Ligier is daring to look down on you right here and now. So, no, in practice the Third Circles have too many of their assets committed against each other in maintaining their power struggles and their petty wars. If you wish to alter Hell so demons can actually get along and you can have Power Without Ambition, I'd suggest hard-nerfing their industrial capacities. Hell is pointless, futile squabbling by chained demons.

As for the question of moving resources from Hell to Creation - well, remember, Keris has to use a 5-dot Otherworld Gate manse to move the Baisha to and from Hell, hidden in the Western Oceans - and the Baisha is a High First Age pleasure yacht, refitted by Ligier into essentially being a Shogunate-level destroyer. Manses are vulnerable and static and can be taken out by Sidereals or anyone else offering counterplay - and large concentrations of Infernal essence snag fate and draw Sidereal attention. Those without one of those precious reliable Hell-conduits are going to have to brave Cecelyne, who is an infinitely spiteful bitch who likely has to be given offerings at least equal to whatever you're moving across her to not drop a glass storm on it. The cost of getting things across Cecelyne should scale with both the value and risk of what you're taking across it; a Solar Circle sneaking into Hell to steal some great treasure can likely take what Cecelyne throws at them, but a giant convoy of treasure will draw her spite for the arrogance of failing to properly propriate her.

As for using Hell - yes, you can get more sophisticated workshops in Hell by making alliances with Second and Third Circles. They'll need compensation and for you to do things for them, yes, which means Plot occurs. But Hell isn't infrastructure friendly, because of aforementioned fractiousness and also because of the acid rain, the LSD-rain, the stone rain, Adorjan, TED, etc etc - and that means that Hellish infrastructure will tend to be built for durability than sophistication. Octavian's factories, for example, likely more resemble the Uruk Hai places where he's focussed on churning out munitions-grade plate and functional weapons to equip his armies. Hell is not capable of the wonders of the High First Age in general, and even Ligier - who is a craft-focussed E10 fetich and prince of Hell and so does have the capacity to very slowly make some of the wonders of the lost age - has to personally handle such things and needs rare things from Creation to make them. He will price the use of such nearly irreplaceable tools very dearly, because he knows how valuable they are and because whatever anyone else wants to use them for has to compete against his own desires.
 
Carrnage said:
And you missed my point, are modern houses all built exclusively using the most advanced technology availiable for which primitive societies have no equivalent? Or do they use hammers nails hinges and wood that has been existant in some form for millenia?
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If you build a replica of a modern house using ancient materials, it will not be pleasant to live in year-round, unless you're building it in, say, lowland New Zealand or certain parts of California.
 
FBH said:
You know what it'd be cool if the scavenger lands had? Trains.
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This actually got brought up years ago, and ES even has a post on his ideas on trains in Creation.

EarthScorpion said:
Notably, early trains will have industrial purposes. They'll exist to move ore or coal places, in areas where canals can't be used. Their viability depends on two separate things - firstly, on the metallurgy and industrial precision of Creation (big Your Creation May Vary there - in mine, the Realm and a few other post-Shogunate nations could manage to build a steam engine which is actually useful, but don't usually because they have things which explode less often fuelled by essence tokens from demenses), and secondly, in places which lack them, on the access to beasts or demons which can substitute as a source of motive power. For example, in some areas of the North I can totally see Yeddim pulling carriages of coal or lumber from mountains to settlement, the carriages running on wooden tracks. You'd use them in places where you couldn't use canals, because they'd just freeze. Or in the South.

(in places where canals can be used, people will just use canals. The early Industrial Revolution was built on canals - and that's why Birmingham has more kilometres of canals than Venice)

In my Malfeas, which tends towards the Victorian in the more "civilised" areas (Octavian's domain is so fucking Victorian the blood apes there wear bowler hats) with dark satanic mills et al, there are demon-trains everywhere. They can lay the track, and then either specialised demon breeds or horrifying alchemical contraptions using strange Malfean substances pull the carriages. Therefore, the train-pulling demons (like the vast centipedes made of brass who are incredibly stupid and are therefore steered by dangling food in front of them) are open to being summoned by people in Creation. Who may well totally misuse them and turn the centipedes into Korean war-wagons and ride them into battle to CHOO CHOO CRUSH YOUR FOES and mount ballistae on their backs and stuff like that.

(They also do that in Malfeas, because my Malfeas' demon society runs by the cyberpunk motto of "The street finds its own use for things" and that means neomah flesh-weavers make custom war-trains for First Circle gang-lords who rule areas of Malfeas larger than most of the nations in Creation)
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FBH said:
You know what it'd be cool if the scavenger lands had? Trains.
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You know what would be better? Canals. :p

But anyway, I remember a shard from Onyxpath forums. The Alchemicals had stayed behind, and when the usurpation came, they were on both sides. But then most stood on the sidelines.

when the 2 disasters came, the alchemicals and their populations were almost wiped out. And then they helped to rebuild creation. Having Celestial exalts really helped along Creation's recovery.

One of the things they did was create a train network. With a single cavaet of not allowing anyone who had dealings with the fair folk on board.
 
Man i really like that depiction of Demonic Train-Lords. For the 2nd/3rd circle demons I'm imagining them shipping out there troops from a demonic railroad and that is a good image.
 
Accelerator said:
You know what would be better? Canals. :p

But anyway, I remember a shard from Onyxpath forums. The Alchemicals had stayed behind, and when the usurpation came, they were on both sides. But then most stood on the sidelines.

when the 2 disasters came, the alchemicals and their populations were almost wiped out. And then they helped to rebuild creation. Having Celestial exalts really helped along Creation's recovery.

One of the things they did was create a train network. With a single cavaet of not allowing anyone who had dealings with the fair folk on board.
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I figure there'd be both really, given the shogunates level of technology.

Like, you'd have big canals for some stuff, and then you'd have trains, probably built with as little essence power as possible, but maybe some.

And the area around Thorns can be Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress
 
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