Then you clearly haven't read enough of TAW to make authoritative statements about it - and frankly, this implies you haven't read enough of Exalted, period, because Ma Ha Suchi is not (in TAW) and arguably never was (in canon) 'one of the greatest Lunars in the world'.

I admit I haven't read TAW in detail, but given MHS is one of the what, 8? 9? survivors of the first age, then yeah, he very much is one of the greatest lunars in the world

How about...

Shortly after his great victory, the Bull was slain alongside most of his Circle in a daring commando raid by a small group of young Dragonbloods who survived the battle. Said Dragonbloods are now great heroes, renowned throughout the Realm.

Or so the story goes. Some people suspect it's false, though. The Cantata of Empty Voices was heard on the day the Bull died, and the last survivor of the Bull's Circle claims that the "heroes" were backed by Second Circle Demons and mysterious martial artists of impossible skill.

Of course, accusing your enemies of consorting with demon lords is the oldest trick in the book.

It's not really about him losing or winning, it's like, if a circle of people with celestial circle sorcery and celestial level charms can wreck face to that level, then why is their a realm left?
 
I admit I haven't read TAW in detail, but given MHS is one of the what, 8? 9? survivors of the first age, then yeah, he very much is one of the greatest lunars in the world
No, he's not. He's one of the oldest. That's it.

In canon, Ma-Ha-Suchi was a debutante, a hedonistic socialite of the First Age whose driving goal in life was to sleep around with as many of his peers as he could. When the Deliberative fell, he survived by hiding in the Wyld, mutating and twisting until he almost became a Chimera. After the Balorian Crusade was defeated, he crept back into the world and decried the rebuilding efforts as a waste of time. "Civilisation was a mistake," he said, preferring to squat in the grim ruin of his ancient manse at the head of a braying horde of barbarians and beastmen, raping and pillaging the surrounding area without point or purpose.

Fundamentally, canon Ma-Ha-Suchi has done. Nothing. He's not a 'Great Lunar', he's a waste of an Exaltation. He's a shallow putz taking out his own self-hatred on the world because he can't get over himself. It is literal canon that he is stuck in a centuries-old temper tantrum because he's not pretty anymore. He's not even a character, he's a dungeon end-boss with as much nuance as a random encounter from D&D.

Yes, TAW's take on Ma-Ha-Suchi is a monster who wants to tear down the world. But at least he's a monster with some degree of agency, of competence, of purpose. He exists to show the dark side of the Terrifying Argent Witches, how they can play the monster so well because they are monsters. Terrible things existing outside society, in the liminal between-spaces of the world, needed but never liked. And it's okay for him to do that because TAW offers a bountiful spread of other NPC's to show that Lunars can also be great. Ma-Ha-Suchi has never been a great Lunar - but in contrast to canon, TAW doesn't expect him to be a great Lunar. That's what Raksi, or Koworai Suhal, or Nekay Pai are for.
 
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It's not really about him losing or winning, it's like, if a circle of people with celestial circle sorcery and celestial level charms can wreck face to that level, then why is their a realm left?

Because the (Sidereal-backed) Wyld Hunt is dangerous enough to kill Celestials and scary enough to deter many of the ones it doesn't kill.

As demonstrated by Sidereals killing the Bull.

Also, because Celestials who try to wreck the Realm usually get less lucky than the Bull.
 
I admit I haven't read TAW in detail, but given MHS is one of the what, 8? 9? survivors of the first age, then yeah, he very much is one of the greatest lunars in the world
Less than that I think but the reason there are so few left is because all the brave or ambitious ones got killed by Sidereals, dragonbloods or younger Lunars for being evil dicks trying to destroy post usurpation society. The only suvivors are the ones who refuse to ever risk themselves or face danger.* He is a horrible corruptive coward. His primary role is that of a distant mentor figure for Lunar's who oppose the realm as that is how fights the realm teaching new lunars enough to be damaging then aiming them at the realm. His primary rival is a younger Lunar who teaches protecting creation and is likely less than half his age.


It's not really about him losing or winning, it's like, if a circle of people with celestial circle sorcery and celestial level charms can wreck face to that level, then why is their a realm left?
Keep in mind that until very recently there were only 17 solar exaltations in the world and at any given time most of them were probably between hosts. They also get killed quickly when they start drawing attention so it would be very difficult to find each other before a wyld hunt does. Full circles have probably only happened a couple of times. Even then the legion they sent was probably supposed to lose to weaken the house with a second properly equipped one sent afterwards to finish the job. However her Redness vanished before she could send the second one.

*and or too crazy to be easy to find or enough of a threat to hunt down.
 
It's not really about him losing or winning, it's like, if a circle of people with celestial circle sorcery and celestial level charms can wreck face to that level, then why is their a realm left?

The entire point of the Wyld Hunt is to kill Solars before they snowball and keep Lunars out. The conceit of the start date is that the Realm no longer has the available manpower to kill you specifically once you display an anima flare anywhere close to where they can mount a military expedition because a) their resources are being pulled back for the civil war buildup and b) there are 300 Solars respawning now, not a handful.

Yurgen has neither of the above applicable, so it's not particularly terrible to have him get wiped out by Wyld Hunt Round 2: We Take Our Jobs Seriously.
 
The entire point of the Wyld Hunt is to kill Solars before they snowball and keep Lunars out. The conceit of the start date is that the Realm no longer has the available manpower to kill you specifically once you display an anima flare anywhere close to where they can mount a military expedition because a) their resources are being pulled back for the civil war buildup and b) there are 300 Solars respawning now, not a handful.
Uh, more like 150.
 
That's what Raksi, or Koworai Suhal, or Nekay Pai are for.

Who, in order:
  • Raksi runs the foremost "market of weird things" in Creation, a place where emissaries of Heaven, the Deathlords, Hell, other Lunars and the Realm meet on neutral ground and where you can buy information on almost anything, or trade the dreams of ten thousand children for a square circle - and jade currency is less important than obligation and debts.
  • Koworai Suhal rules a bioengineered empire in the Far West that sprawls over both island chains and under the sea, and considers himself an artist of ecosystems. He's brought a coalition of Western Lunars together and has been grabbing up Outcaste Dragonblooded for hundreds of years and bringing them on side, so there are Dragonblooded born to his empire who are loyal to him.
  • Nekay Pai is a young Lunar in the North West, who's allied her (vaguely Scottish) tribe with their ancestor spirits rather than absent and greedy gods, and is building a society where the living and the Dead live in harmony as equals. They're thriving because of it, but the local gods are angry for the loss of worship and are inciting the other tribes against them.
I made that Ma Ha Suchi as a play on the canon one; if the canon one is an edgy devil with a goat-wolf form and all that raping and pillaging, TAW Ma Ha is cast in the vein of Paradise Lost Lucifer. His pride leads him to degrade himself and Creation, all for revenge for what he lost and what was taken from him. He's charismatic and even affable in person - if you don't notice the cold look in his eyes when he evaluates you and judges your utility as a weapon against the Dragonblooded. He's not a brooding wolf-goat; he's a pretty boy, turning his First Age skills into weapons.
 
No, he's not. He's one of the oldest. That's it.

In canon, Ma-Ha-Suchi was a debutante, a hedonistic socialite of the First Age whose driving goal in life was to sleep around with as many of his peers as he could. When the Deliberative fell, he survived by hiding in the Wyld, mutating and twisting until he almost became a Chimera. After the Balorian Crusade was defeated, he crept back into the world and decried the rebuilding efforts as a waste of time. "Civilisation was a mistake," he said, preferring to squat in the grim ruin of his ancient manse at the head of a braying horde of barbarians and beastmen, raping and pillaging the surrounding area without point or purpose.

Fundamentally, canon Ma-Ha-Suchi has done. Nothing. He's not a 'Great Lunar', he's a waste of an Exaltation. He's a shallow putz taking out his own self-hatred on the world because he can't get over himself. It is literal canon that he is stuck in a centuries-old temper tantrum because he's not pretty anymore. He's not even a character, he's a dungeon end-boss with as much nuance as a random encounter from D&D.

Yes, TAW's take on Ma-Ha-Suchi is a monster who wants to tear down the world. But at least he's a monster with some degree of agency, of competence, of purpose. He exists to show the dark side of the Terrifying Argent Witches, how they can play the monster so well because they are monsters. Terrible things existing outside society, in the liminal between-spaces of the world, needed but never liked. And it's okay for him to do that because TAW offers a bountiful spread of other NPC's to show that Lunars can also be great. Ma-Ha-Suchi has never been a great Lunar - but in contrast to canon, TAW doesn't expect him to be a great Lunar. That's what Raksi, or Koworai Suhal, or Nekay Pai are for.

I don't get the impression that first age MHS was particularly useless, though second age MHS may regard his previous self with a level of self hatred, he's been through a lot. He was obviously a hedonist, but if you read, say, DoTFA's comics, you can also see the start of what he would later become there. "No mercy to apostates" etc.

Clearly, while he was a hedonistic socialite who liked to sleep around, the merciless being he would one day become lurked beneath his handsome skin.

This is the problem with Lunars in a nutshell, rather than with Ma Ha Suchi. There's a fundamental dissonance between the idea of three hundred some celestial exalts still being free and able to do stuff, and the fact they haven't really changed the world that much. 3rd edition seems to be trying to address this, but I feel like the correct approach is to completely change the depiction, rather than in any way double down on it.

I don't want to step on what's obviously a much loved homebrew, especially one that I haven't had chance to really engage with. However, I don't find Ma Ha Suchi being the devil to be particularly compelling. I'd prefer to dial back his self hatred and make him be someone who now mostly disregards subtlety. Perhaps having failed to make headway with it several times over his long existence, and no longer being so suited for it as he once was. Rather than wanting to tear down society, I see him as being a wolf that wishes to build an empire, and is building the tools to do that.

The entire point of the Wyld Hunt is to kill Solars before they snowball and keep Lunars out. The conceit of the start date is that the Realm no longer has the available manpower to kill you specifically once you display an anima flare anywhere close to where they can mount a military expedition because a) their resources are being pulled back for the civil war buildup and b) there are 300 Solars respawning now, not a handful.

Yurgen has neither of the above applicable, so it's not particularly terrible to have him get wiped out by Wyld Hunt Round 2: We Take Our Jobs Seriously.

Because the (Sidereal-backed) Wyld Hunt is dangerous enough to kill Celestials and scary enough to deter many of the ones it doesn't kill.

As demonstrated by Sidereals killing the Bull.

Also, because Celestials who try to wreck the Realm usually get less lucky than the Bull.

I don't really like this approach either, because it kind of throw's solars under the bus in order to avoid throwing lunars under the bus.

The Bull of the North serves a good story purpose, which is to show that the Solars coming back is a big thing, and that they're going to change the world. Him then getting assassinated, especially if you're going to keep in the destruction of several realm legions at his hands feels like a very anti-climatic way to end that story, and one that actually goes against things as they've been established.

The problem, and this brings us back to Ma Ha Suchi, is that there's always been a tension within Exalted between the fact that solars are coming back and that's a big thing, and the fact that Lunars have been free for the whole length of the Shogunate and the Realm, and yet have not managed to really do that much.

3rd edition's background goes a way to address this by implying that there's sort of a long stalemate going on between the two sides, but it feels necessary to figure out how that works, and how to balance portraying the solar's return as significant while not removing any lunar influence on the setting.

I don't have time to write up a long treaties on how I'd do this, but I think my approach would be to make sure that Solar and Lunar mass combat charms are decisively different from one another, and to change the ratio of realm troops vs. local troops (which would fit my conception of how the realm mostly works on religion and food), and to have the Bull's attack be in a region without substantial lunar influence so the realm was just surprised by it.
 
This is the problem with Lunars in a nutshell, rather than with Ma Ha Suchi. There's a fundamental dissonance between the idea of three hundred some celestial exalts still being free and able to do stuff, and the fact they haven't really changed the world that much.

The Lunars were originally supposed to be an NPC antagonist problem: the insane chimera-champions of the Wyld, ravening in from beyond the borders of reality to wreck stuff. At some point in the 1E development process, a decision was made to turn them into a playable splat, but after the history of the Realm was set down and put into code freeze. This neatly explains the problem with them, and also shows how to fix it, kek: make them back into the mad champions of Chaos, howling beyond the edge of the world.

This solves several problems simultaneously:
a) Explains what the Lunars were doing since the Usurpation, they've been in the Wyld for the last two thousand years, smashing at the walls of Creation.
b) Gives them a solid, concrete, setting-changing achievement, they swept in on the heels of the Great Contagion and destroyed the Dragon-Blooded Shogunate.
c) Makes the Wyld more interesting by populating it with mad shapeshifting Exalt-kings of Chaos rather than yet more uninteresting fairies.
d) Allows you to have Exalt-class entities associated with the Wyld as a realm (like all the otherworlds have: Sidereals for Heaven, Infernals for Hell, Abyssals for the Underworld) without having to make bloody fairies capable of playing in the Exalt tier, as Lunars are Celestial Exalts and obey Celestial Exalt population caps.
e) Gives them a cooler hook than "herp derp animals".
f) Gives them a specific reason to be coming into Creation right now: the legions of the Shogunate could keep them out with force and numbers alone, the Empress on the Scarlet Throne had the First Realm's strategic orbital killsat network, neither of these things are currently present.
 
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Again, disclaimer, I'm just reading your post here, I haven't had time to look all the way through TAW, and I'm always wary of making extensive critique of people's cherrished projects. That said. . .

The Lunars were originally supposed to be an NPC antagonist problem: the insane chimera-champions of the Wyld, ravening in from beyond the borders of reality to wreck stuff. At some point in the 1E development process, a decision was made to turn them into a playable splat, but after the history of the Realm was set down and put into code freeze. This neatly explains the problem with them, and how to fix it, kek: make them back into the mad champions of Chaos, howling beyond the edge of the world.

You had me up until here. However, "make them just howling champions of chaos" doesn't really strike me as any better, and in some ways, actually worse.

First off, you're still just stealing the coolness of existing factions rather than changing the setting in a way that actually fixes things. I like the Fair Folk. I like the Balorian Crusade, more than that, I think that giving the wyld their own exalts makes it too much like the other exalted otherworlds, all of which are associated with Creation. The Wyld isn't. It's outside, the remains of the previous universe, inhabbited by strange beings with a very different set of aesthetics from those of creation. I actually like the fact that they're not inhumanity represented as yet another group of lovecraftian horrors. It shouldn't have exalted, and its entities should be able to challenge the world's champions.

Replacing this with the lunar exalted doesn't strike me as more interesting that what's already there. If you absolutely can't stand the fair folk as written, then look at Michael Moorcock's Chaos or the ones in Tanith Lee. Either way, they should be different entities from those within creation.

Second, by making them pure champions of chaos you remove several of their interesting features, and make them into another badguy faction. As depicted Lunars are beings of two worlds. Both male and female, both animal and human, both of the world and of the wyld. They shouldn't be the kings of the wyld, they should be kings of the edge, fighting both the corrupt rulers of creation and against the madness of the wyld. Let them, in the same way that the solars are, and to some extent the same way the dragonblooded are, still be heroes, with a desire to preserve some vision of the world, rather than plunging it into death (abyssals) or the rule of demonic gods (infernals.)

The trick of integrating Lunars into the setting is to actually integrate them into the setting. To create a set of Lunar Empires around the edge of the world, to think how the realm operates in the emergency of "fifty lunars just turned up." Have a long series of wars between the Lunars and Dragon Blooded in the same way that there were wars between the sedentary people and nomads in our world.

Hell, have some shogunate era fortifications manned by brotherhoods of people in colour coded armour to keep them back.

But change the setting so they fit by adding elements, not by removing them. That just creates another set of problems.
 
If you were gonna write a race of subterranean rat people in the vein of the Skaven or Ratmen or Skritt in Creation, how would you do it?
Keep them rat sized but make them highly advanced technologically, particularly the Skaven rattling gun for the sheer novelty of seeing an Exalt being brought down by opponents who are only a few inches tall. Also have them talk like the Chipmonks so the PCs will be inclined to assume they're totally harmless.
 
The trick of integrating Lunars into the setting is to actually integrate them into the setting.

Yeah, see, this is the problem: the setting's history was mostly built with them not being there. You can outright remove the Lunar Exalted from the setting and nothing would meaningfully change, as there are no pivotal events that revolve around them. They were helping out in the Primordial War, but you could just as easily talk about that happening with just the Chosen of Sun, Stars and Elements. They existed during the First Age, but let's be honest, that was all about Solars and their relationship with the Sidereals and DBs. The Lunars didn't even do anything during the Usurpation besides get killed, and the story of Creation after that is written by and about the Sidereals and the DBs. Again, you can remove the Lunars from existence by saying they all got eaten by the Wyld at this point and nothing would change.

Because they weren't supposed to be a playable splat until it was too late to go back and redo the entire setting's history.

You can't really get around this issue by handwaving "integrate them into the setting", because what you actually mean when you say that is "rewrite it so the Lunars have something to do and don't look like a last minute addition originally intended to be an enemy". This is an easy "something to do" - return to the Lunars' original role, jazz up the mechanically and thematically problematic Fair Folk by making them share conceptual space with the Lunars, add spice to the Wyld because with the Lunars added the Fair Folk can actually have something that can take on a Solar Exalt face to face and not cause the setting to break because there are uncounted trillions upon trillions of fairies.

Besides, this allows giving the poor Lunars credit for destroying the world once, everyone else in the Exalt club has done it.
 
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Yeah, see, this is the problem: the setting's history was mostly built around them not being there. You can outright remove the Lunar Exalted from the setting and nothing would meaningfully change, as there are no pivotal events that revolve around them. They were helping out in the Primordial War, but you could just as easily talk about that happening with just the Chosen of Sun, Stars and Elements. They existed during the First Age, but let's be honest, that was all about Solars. They didn't even do anything during the Usurpation, and the story of Creation after that is written by and about the Sidereals and the Dragon-Blooded.

Because they weren't supposed to be a playable splat until it was too late to go back and redo the entire setting's history. You can't really get around this issue by handwaving "integrate them into the setting", because what you actually mean when you say that is "rewrite it so the Lunars have something to do".

Again, this is where you lose me. I actually think the fair folk are one of the coolest parts of the setting. They're terrifying creatures from outside of reality, soul eating beings from the previous universe, and yet they're not blobs of swaying tentacles and organs with the world INCOMPREHENSIBLE stamped on them. They have a great aesthetic, one that's really different from everything else in the setting, and have an interesting relationship with the world, being its antagonists, but in a more complex way than the abyssals (who seek destruction) or infernals (who seek domination). Like, they're lovecraftian horrors who humans trade with.

I realize their mechanics aren't great but, if we're going to say mechanically complex, then that's kinda like... you might as well dump all of exalted if you're worried about bad mechanics.

If you want to rewrite the setting so Lunars have something to do, then you can write the setting so lunars have something to do, rather than handing them something that someone else does, which also makes them another set of antagonists from another realm, which Exalted already has two sets of already.

Like, and this is off the top of my head, maybe the lunars' were involved in the usurption. The whole point of their marriage to the solars was that each lunar would only be vulnerable to a single solar, so the lunars could very well have wanted to slaughter the lot of them except for my one as much as the Sids did. Given the Lunars are amazing tricksters, their involvement would explain a lot, and also give a lot more interesting stories for solar/lunar interaction when solars return: sure, each solar maybe okay with their lunar mate but their circlemates remember that lunar stabbing them to death with silver claws.

Then the Sidereals, affected by their own great curse and afraid of replacing one set of god kings with another betrayed the lunars to put the more tractable dragon blooded upon the throne of the world and drove the lunars from the world's heart. At the edge of the world, the lunars made their stand, against the Dragon Blooded who pursued them. Against the Fair folk, against whom they had been the first age's primary antagonists, and against those human nations at the edge of the world that the Solars had not bothered to conquer. With trickery and Persasion and with silver claws, the Lunars forced all three to give ground or come to terms, and created a series of realms around the world's rim, which then became the primary antagonists for the new dragon blooded shogunates during the second part of the first age.

Then the contagion came, most everyone died, and the Lunar's other enemy returned, the fair folk pushing through them to strike at the centre of the world. The Empress attacked both when she got ahold of the sword of creation, and since then, the Lunars have spent their time rebuilding things and creating various means of defeating the hated Dragon Blooded. Younger Lunars are starting to think that the outside in approach of their elders is not working, so are increasingly trying to penetrate deeper into the world, trying to undermine the Scarlet Empire from within, and building increasingly sophisticated beastmen and artifacts to overcome the superior resources that the Blessed Isle, Scavenger Lands and Dreaming Sea give the Dragon Blooded.


This is something I thought up in like, an hour, but I feel like it's a more satisfying rewrite than trying to make them the fair folk.
 
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This is something I thought up in like, an hour, but I feel like it's a more satisfying rewrite than trying to make them the fair folk.

From this I assume you're not aware of one of the core problems with the Fair Folk, namely, the fact that they definitionally can't put up a challenge against a Celestial Exalt because there are uncounted trillions upon trillions of them, and any fairy can make more fairies that make more fairies in a hilarious exponential growth curve because of what they are. This is an issue that's been holding back the Fair Folk since 1E. They can't be meaningful threats, because they're a horde splat that outnumbers first circle demons.

They're also the only things inhabiting the Wyld, which is a terrible shame, because this means an entire otherworld-realm in Exalted's setting is definitionally filled with speedbumps. I think this is a waste.

So. Observation A: The Fair Folk are conceptually cool, but Lunars are lame Werewolf the Apocalypse knockoffs with shitty charms.
Observation B: The Wyld / Fair Folk section of the setting has a great big missing bit labeled "can make a Solar Exalt fight for their lives, doesn't break the setting by being both able to do that and reproduce like grey goo".
Observation C: Lunars are lame because they were not supposed to be a playable splat until Grabowski changed his mind at a point where it was too late to go back and rewrite the setting.
Solution: Put Lunars in that big missing spot, since apparently they were supposed to be there in the first place. Make the Fair Folk better by buffing them and giving them Celestial Exalts. Dispose of the existing Lunars, whom nobody likes.
 
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From this I assume you're not aware of one of the core problems with the Fair Folk, namely, the fact that they definitionally can't put up a challenge against a Celestial Exalt because there are uncounted trillions upon trillions of them, and any fairy can make more fairies that make more fairies in a hilarious exponential growth curve because of what they are. This is an issue that's been holding back the Fair Folk since 1E. They can't be meaningful threats, because they're a horde splat that outnumbers first circle demons.

So. Observation A: The Fair Folk are conceptually cool, but Lunars are lame Werewolf the Apocalypse knockoffs.
Observation B: The Wyld / Fair Folk section of the setting has a great big missing bit labeled "can make a Solar Exalt fight for their lives, doesn't break the setting by being both able to do that and reproduce like grey goo".
Observation C: Lunars are lame because they were not supposed to be a playable splat until Grabowski changed his mind at a point where it was too late to go back and rewrite the setting.
Solution: Put Lunars in that big missing spot. Make the Fair Folk better by refocusing them into Celestial Exalts. Dispose of the existing Lunars, whom nobody likes.

I get you, but it seems like there's a lot easier ways to deal with that, namely by making the fair folk utterly disunited and facing their own threats and challenges, such as the beings of the deep wyld, strange things from left over bits of creation, and possibly even parts of weird prototype creations out there, and by rationing the number of truly scary fair folk who can put up a fight to exalted. Why can't the fair folk overwhelm the world? Well, because they're busy.

I am, at a very base level, deeply opposed to the idea of the wyld having exalted. It's too normal. It makes the wyld too much like creation. By making them just another bunch of celestials, just another bunch of warring siblings in the battle over the house that their evil parents built, you steal most everything that makes them unique. The whole point of the wyld is it's very different from creation. If you give it it's own exalt type, it's suddenly not all that different anymore.

The basic conception of lunars as like, anti-patriarchal werewolves who were once the brides of the solars but no more, (the anti-patriarchal thing should have been played up more IMHO) is fine. The idea of the lunars as nomads/barbarians against creation's sedentary people is fine. There's no need to make into the fair folk. The fair folk are already fine as the fair folk.

You just need to give the lunars something to do, and actually write events so that they are involved in them.
 
Speaking as a newcomer to Exalted, I have to completely agree that the part that's hardest to grasp about Lunars is just how little they've done vs how important they should be.

If I may throw in my two cents, Lunars as the kings and queens of boundaries and edges, liminal spaces, is the interpretation of them I like the most. I believe SLS said some things on this subject. I also see the problem in making them take credit for stuff others have done - that just creates more frustration and doesn't give them an identity of their own.

So from my rather limited knowledge, I think one way to have them add to the setting's history (not still-existing locations, I'm not good at those) is for them to have anticipated the Balorian Crusade and sabotaged it from the inside. Again, I'm new to this setting, so there's probably several holes to this:

What if, instead of being completely wiping out those parts of the world, the Lunars managed to sequester some of those places into small bubbles of stability, and trick or convince the Fair Folk such that they could not find them or want to destroy them? What if some of that which was thrown into the Wyld is lost but not gone?

I know Solars were the ones with the best Wyld-stabilizing methods, but what if the escape of the Lunars into the Wyld gave them what they needed to allow them to trick or subdue or convince the FF to mostly leave those parts alone?

That way, instead of them being chumps who can't do anything but lose, that makes Lunars the ultimate in disaster prevention/mitigation, managing the impossible task of salvaging what they could from the world. Who but the Lunars could possibly thrive in the Wyld and retain enough sense of self to save the world from this kind of global threat?

The Empress and the DB can handle the interior of Creation, but the Lunars can prevent more damage from outside.

...None of that would address what Lunars are doing right now and why they haven't managed any substantial victories over the Realm, though. Someone mentioned pages back the idea of the Silver Pact as a spreading ideology around the edges of the world, and how Lunar societies would benefit more from more monstrous aesthetics, instead of barbarian tribes and stuff; I must say I agree with that more.
 
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Yeah, see, this is the problem: the setting's history was mostly built with them not being there. You can outright remove the Lunar Exalted from the setting and nothing would meaningfully change, as there are no pivotal events that revolve around them. They were helping out in the Primordial War, but you could just as easily talk about that happening with just the Chosen of Sun, Stars and Elements. They existed during the First Age, but let's be honest, that was all about Solars and their relationship with the Sidereals and DBs. The Lunars didn't even do anything during the Usurpation besides get killed, and the story of Creation after that is written by and about the Sidereals and the DBs. Again, you can remove the Lunars from existence by saying they all got eaten by the Wyld at this point and nothing would change.

Because they weren't supposed to be a playable splat until it was too late to go back and redo the entire setting's history.

You can't really get around this issue by handwaving "integrate them into the setting", because what you actually mean when you say that is "rewrite it so the Lunars have something to do and don't look like a last minute addition originally intended to be an enemy". This is an easy "something to do" - return to the Lunars' original role, jazz up the mechanically and thematically problematic Fair Folk by making them share conceptual space with the Lunars, add spice to the Wyld because with the Lunars added the Fair Folk can actually have something that can take on a Solar Exalt face to face and not cause the setting to break because there are uncounted trillions upon trillions of fairies.

Besides, this allows giving the poor Lunars credit for destroying the world once, everyone else in the Exalt club has done it.
Yeah, that's kinda the problem. The lunars are kinda forgettable.

I mean, there was this one time when I was trying to figure out a homebrew for sorcery. Trying to make different tiers of sorcery, with different effects, scopes, scales, and haxiness. I finally made a scale by which I could allow different exalt types to learn different types of sorcery and spells, at different rates, and enable them to do different things with their magic.

When I finished everything, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten about the Lunars.
 
I get you, but it seems like there's a lot easier ways to deal with that, namely by making the fair folk utterly disunited and facing their own threats and challenges, such as the beings of the deep wyld, strange things from left over bits of creation, and possibly even parts of weird prototype creations out there, and by rationing the number of truly scary fair folk who can put up a fight to exalted. Why can't the fair folk overwhelm the world? Well, because they're busy.

Eh. The game's called Exalted, not Fairy. A setting which contains uncounted trillions upon trillions of Solar Exalt level fairies playing with themselves in Pure Chaos would require this renaming, as they would then be the only things that mattered. Personally, I don't like Fairy, I like Exalted, the setting in which the Primordials made something which became the center of previously-formless existence and the beginning of time, which from then flowed in one direction and could not loop back upon itself, an act which imposed upon all Chaos this absolute tyranny. If you've got a trillion trillion Solar Exalted out there, that doesn't work: 300 were enough to deal with the Primordials and that would have pissed them all off.

I am, at a very base level, deeply opposed to the idea of the wyld having exalted. It's too normal. It makes the wyld too much like creation. By making them just another bunch of celestials, just another bunch of warring siblings in the battle over the house that their evil parents built, you steal most everything that makes them unique. The whole point of the wyld is it's very different from creation. If you give it it's own exalt type, it's suddenly not all that different anymore.

Right now, it's a giant empty swath of nothing which the player characters don't care about in any way except as a place to go in order to turn on Wyld Cauldron Technology and turn it into free stuff. It contains nobody with anything to offer them besides reasons to buy Integrity Protecting Prana and no challenges to overcome except finding XP to buy Chaos Repelling Pattern. This is certainly different to other places in Creation, but not in a particularly good way. Stick some peer entities in there, and not in a way that requires invalidating the setting.

Happens we've got some orphan Celestial Exalted who apparently don't have anything to do. Well, that's convenient.

The basic conception of lunars as like, anti-patriarchal werewolves who were once the brides of the solars but no more, (the anti-patriarchal thing should have been played up more IMHO) is fine. The idea of the lunars as nomads/barbarians against creation's sedentary people is fine. There's no need to make into the fair folk. The fair folk are already fine as the fair folk.

Anti-patriarchal? Wut? Ma-Ha-Suchi exists.

You just need to give the lunars something to do, and actually write events so that they are involved in them.

Shrug. Have fun rewriting the history of Creation in such a way that doesn't break the setting or render it not-Creation. My point is, this is the easiest way to "rescue" the Lunars and the Wyld as gameable pieces of the setting, at the same time, in a compact form. You can obviously do whatever you want in your own game, this is one of the easier ways to resolve the issues without creating even more.
 
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To go back to the Bull, in a geographical sense, pretty much the entire Northern Direction is terribly written and full of map cancer. The Bull, Halta and Linowan, the three fucking Deathlords, and the entirety of the Great Ice -- because having half the map be a frozen wasteland is about as interesting and ripe with plot hooks as 90% of the West being a blank body of water.

The one thing that I without question or ambivalence will take from 3E and unabashedly stick into 2E is the maps. The world of 3E is so much better done.
 
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The basic conception of lunars as like, anti-patriarchal werewolves who were once the brides of the solars but no more, (the anti-patriarchal thing should have been played up more IMHO) is fine.

Question. What patriarchy would that be?

  • It's not the Solars, because Solars are going to default to 50-50 gender ratios and the most famous First Age Solar and the only absolute ruler they ever had was a queen.
  • It's not the Terrestrials, because the Realm is matrilinear and tends to be matriarchal.
  • It's not the Sidereals, because the Sidereals are also 50-50 and all their bosses are women.
  • It's not Heaven, because most of the Incarnae are female, the only male there doesn't do his job, and the de facto ruler of Heaven, Ryzala, Shogun of Bureaucracy, is a woman.
  • It's not the Primordials, because they're singular beings and the female Primordials are just as potent and just as assholish as the male ones.
There are patriarchies in Creation - for example, An Teng is a matrilinear patriarchy where inheritance of land passes down the female line but her husband administers it for her - but they're just mortal societies, and they're not the default.

In fact, the entire "rah rah look how the Solars treated us" is entirely a pretty bad 2eism, inserted wholesale with the nonsensical "oh, the Solar bond was a cunning trick so Lunars would only be bonded to one Solar" - when the original concept of "Solar mates" was "Some Lunars and Solars were married in the first age, and such bonds of love may last past a lifetime".
 
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Question. What patriarchy would that be?

Our patriarchy, the one that exists in our world. There's no more subversive idea to the norms of gender power than the idea that gender itself may not exist in the way we suppose it too. Even in creation, where there are more equal societies, and ones dominated by women, the idea of twin faced beings who are male and female as they wish is going to be pretty subversive whether you're a coralite who believes men should rule, or a realm dynast who thinks that it's women's job.


In fact, the entire "rah rah look how the Solars treated us" is entirely a pretty bad 2eism, inserted wholesale with the nonsensical "oh, the Solar bond was a cunning trick so Lunars would only be bonded to one Solar" - when the original concept of "Solar mates" was "Some Lunars and Solars were married in the first age, and such bonds of love may last past a lifetime".

I don't, I'm gonna be honest here, really care about what was written in 1st edition more than 2nd edition. 2nd edition's setting notes had their problems (primarily the decision to reduce the world to a mere 4 thin source books) but the lunars in 2nd edition were so much cooler than in first edition, and I'd go as far as to say genuinely interesting in their own right. For instance, I really like TSR. They just didn't do enough with it, by which I mean they didn't actually add a bunch of territories under lunar control.

I also think that the fact that 2nd edition makes first age equipment, at least in some areas, a lot more common is better than the way first edition does it too.

Eh. The game's called Exalted, not Fairy. A setting which contains uncounted trillions upon trillions of Solar Exalt level fairies playing with themselves in Pure Chaos would require this renaming, as they would then be the only things that mattered. Personally, I don't like Fairy, I like Exalted, the setting in which the Primordials made something which declared that it was the center of previously-formless existence and that time flowed in one direction and could not loop back upon itself, which imposed upon all Chaos this absolute tyranny. If you've got a trillion trillion Solar Exalted out there, that doesn't work: 300 were enough to deal with the Primordials.

I don't think the potential existence of powerful beings out in the primal chaos beyond the world doing their own strange things out there particularly affects what's happening inside of creation, anymore than the fact that China exists is going to make a story set in Medieval Europe lesser. While the Wyld is infinite, and there obviously are vastly powerful beings out there, there's no reason to suppose that many of them can match a celestial exalt or that those that can outnumber creation's champions locally.

Right now, it's a giant empty swath of nothing which the player characters don't care about in any way except as a place to go in order to turn on Wyld Cauldron Technology and turn it into free stuff. It contains nobody with anything to offer them besides reasons to buy Integrity Protecting Prana and no challenges to overcome except finding XP to buy Chaos Repelling Pattern. This is certainly different to other places in Creation, but not in a particularly good way. Stick some peer entities in there, and not in a way that requires invalidating the setting.

Happens we've got some orphan Celestial Exalted who apparently don't have anything to do. Well, that's convenient.

So just have some peer entities out there that don't outnumber creation, at least locally. That's not even vaguely complicated. There's plenty of options, from powerful Cataphracti to the unshaped.

I don't even agree that there's nothing to do out there. There's a whole foreign civilization with its own weird magics who trade regularly with humans. If the works of the fair folk are useless to humans, that's a problem of the system. There should absolutely be reasons why even an exalted might make deals with the fair folk, as much as there is for an exalted to make deals with (or enslave) demons.

Anti-patriarchal? Wut? Ma-Ha-Suchi exists.

I mean in terms of the fact that they're both male and female. The fact you've still got elder lunars who are totally bound up about gender roles is one of the things I mean about emphasizing it more.

Shrug. Have fun rewriting the history of Creation in such a way that doesn't break the setting or render it not-Creation. My point is, this is the easiest way to "rescue" the Lunars and the Wyld as gameable pieces of the setting, at the same time. You can obviously do whatever you want in your own game, this is one of the easier ways to resolve the issues without creating even more.

Well, the same goes for you. If you want to use TAW, it is from what I've seen, pretty well written and well realized homebrew. If that's what you want to do, it is, after all, your game.

However, on my part, I feel like you're undermining a lot of cool parts of the setting to do it. As I said earlier, by removing the fairfolk, or enslaving then to the lunars, you make the Wyld less than it would be. More than that though, you also remove any faction that wants to push towards a future rather than trying to recreate some utopian past (solars, infernals) or simply preserve what is (Sidereals, Dragon blooded). That to me makes the setting less than what it should be.
 
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