Compare a Level 0 adept to a Level 1 adept.
Now compare a Level 1 to a Level 3. There is an entire Realization between them.
Now compare a Level 3 to a Level 4. There is an entire extra re-roll involved.
Now compare a Winter (or Lantern, whatever) Level 4, to a damned Moth Level 7.
We need power. I'm getting less concerned with what we need to do for power.
I'll push for as many Sacraments as we can get, potentially including winter and Grail if we reach 4/4 for them.
The Third Son will be worse than the Master.
I'll say it's not quite CERTAIN that the wolf son would be WORSE than the Master... But it's very likely.
And of course it would be a lot more relentless.
Maybe a Master fully dedicated to the goal of making everyone miserable would be worse, but then again that's not what he does.
Misery is usually just a by-product of his actions, not a goal like it would be for the Wolf (at least when he's not aiming for "dimming the lights")
Applying Attention of the Laws on Edge, alongside an Influence should grant us anywhere from an extra +30 to +60 to combat rolls. If we really want to be sure we could do The Forge's Redemption to remove our scar and grant us an extra point of Health.
Eh, maybe if we had the edge sacrament to help. MAYBE.
Or maybe a Winter Sacrament.
Or more, really.
It pisses me the fuck off each time I see such a post saying Accept is best because in this case rape is totes fine 'cause utilitarianism.
And as Aspirant points out under the utilitarianism ethos you so espouse Offer is the most morally correct option.
Tough luck. We're saying it because we believe it, just like everyone else making their arguments
I get you dislike the argument, but I assure you we dislike other arguments made (like all the previous ones for Offering ourselves) and still had to live with them.
Or in other words: we have a right to make those arguments, just like you have a right to make yours.
From my point of view, Offer Yourself is the worst course of action UNLESS we're fine basically accepting the Master's morals over our own, and are willing to give him free reign over our resources.
To me, that's the worst option of them all. Not the one that's likely to cause the most suffering on large scale though, admittedly (that might be either Wolf or banish in my opinion), but the one WE will suffer the most from, and the one that reduces our agency the most.
It's also, while not the one that makes the world the worst, definitely the option that lowers the ceiling of how "good" our final ending can turn out to be, even if we win.
We might be able to fix or mitigate wolf, we might be able to raise Cadance's and Equestrian's spirits in "Banish", we'll PROBABLY be able to mitigate ALICORN son by the time we're in the epilogue...
I don't see us being able to mitigate the decisions of our Master much when he's
possessing us
Basically it's the option that gives us the least personal and long term hope, rather than the one that makes things the worst on a large scale
But with the clarification that possession is pretty much misery porn, where we have literally zero real agency or capability to influence anything that really matters, and any hope of rescue may well be nonexistent, then that option is little else but giving the Master another tool for the job.
Well, we WOULD have some agency, or it wouldn't be a quest anymore.
But we ARE giving up choices that are explicitly acting against the Master's wishes. We've seen he is willing to entertain a variety of courses of actions, up to a point.
Our agency would definitely be diminished and corrupted though.
You don't have to agree with them, but do not call them a villain or a rape apologist. We can be better than that.
I'm kind of surprised we didn't get mod actions yet, honestly.
Admittedly most of the talk has been pretty civil though. The worst exception was... Well some accusations to the Qm, and the thing about the rape being not explicit (it totally was)
I also have to ask where the idea that the Wolf is worse than the Master comes from. Last I checked an RA will be worse than the last RA not worse than all permutations of the other options.
I'm not calling him either of those things nor that he stop arguing his point, all I'm asking is that he change the manner he is doing it. The manner he is writing it. It screams condescension and an appeal to emotion/base emotional manipulation to me. Maybe I'm the only one who feels so but I still felt it had to be said.
...appeals to emotions are quite literally PROVEN to be the most effective ones. As a matter of fact appeals to rationality fail far more often than the ones to emotions.
It seems normal to me that someone would make use of them. Especially if the reason to push one course of action over another is based on emotions rather than rational thought.
The way I see it every single "I won't take accept because we'd be allowing rape" is very much an emotional appeal.
I disagree with it, I think a rape that won't cause actual suffering is less bad than killing Shining, or Wolf, or the misery velvet will feel if she gets possessed... I can speak my reasons as much as I want, but I KNOW some people decided due to emotions, and no amount of reasons will convince them otherwise.
...I digress. My point was "make all arguments you want, everyone. Just be prepared for other people making their own arguments, some of which you won't like"
Huh.
Just read this.
H u h.
It's not new. Each of the Name could have been a main player, if we took their lore for the cult, as they would have been a MOTIVATED Master.
We took Moth, so the other Names are... Unable or unwilling to be players.
Baldomare sort of gave up, and spent her life with Illopony. Axe is trapped and only wishes for her freedom. Mareinette was stuck in the church. Biedde is stuck watching over the Worm Museum. And so on.
Nah, the regrettable will win anyway. Most people just too pissed at master and want to get him without any thought about consequences, or straight up delusional about the evil it will bring
I will enjoy reading it tho. As well as RA voters realize how beg they will fuck everything up, once it done.
I still hope for Accept to win, but it would be enjoyable to see the reaction of outraged/disappointed users if/when the wolf turns out to be worse than expected
I wonder if I'll feel happy or sad at the Master's death. Normally I'd feel satisfaction I think, but I think I would't wish the Wolf even of them
People said the same thing after the first RA vote and some did regret, some didn't. If I could go back to that vote I would still vote to tear the door down.
I probably would too, but mostly because I still don't think we would have worked quickly enough on the alternative "kill two people"
It's pretty funny how if the Master wasn't unchained for the quest to exist that all the Names would just continue to do whatever they've been doing in the Mansus for millenia, like Baldomare and Illopony playing a really dated version of Scrabble cause that's the only board game the Lodge has constantly, forever.
Meh, Baldomare obviously has her own Virtual Reality games, courtesy of her
Lantern Simulations!
She's probably playing a cultist simulator sim!
... Or a romance visual novel...
And Wolf by the existing trend will slightly but measurably put the entire world into a worse state. The world entire, save for a safe haven of Velvet Covers and her immediate locale.
Technically not guaranteed to not affect Velvet and her close people, if indirectly.
Example: Evil PROBABLY nudged chrysalis to be worse. That lead to Soft Sweep's family's death (though to be fair she wasn't a Daughter yet at the time)
People are still severely underestimating Names even after the recent examples of both Baldomare and the Master.
We will at least get a slightly better idea of their power once we see what Sacraments do... We're close to our first one, and MAYBE if we could get multiple ones...
The crux of your (though saying it is only yours is wrong seeing as so many voted for it and Pit spoke out in support with the same points) argument, correct me if I'm wrong, is that in Accept the Master is gone for all intents and purposes, though still a prospective force for evil in the epilogue, and the cost is a rape in which neither party being raped is aware of it thus because the worst part of it, the trauma, is absent it is the morally and mechanically correct option when backlit by the other options. You then deride the other option that sees the Master gone, permanently this time, as morally incorrect because it will make the world a worse place in an inflated way, your literal first example for the Wolf was that it would cause more rapes.
You might not be justifying rape as a whole but you are trying to morally justify this one.
I'll point out that "wolf might make more Rapes happen" was, at least on my part, more meant to make it clear that it would make MORE atrocious acts happen for the sake of stopping ONE act on our friend (which she wont know about)
A rape is very up there in terms of horrible things that can happen to a person. I'd argue death is usually worse, and Wolf WILL cause deaths, and plenty of them. It's unavoidable.
So yeah, I'm saying that Wolf is morally worse, unless you're just saying the suffering of strangers is worth less than the suffering of friends.
Which, to be fair, IS how humans function, so it's also a valid reason to vote for one option over another.
I just want to make it absolutely clear THAT YES, BY DEFINITION, wolf maximises suffering compared to Accept. It should be obvious, even!
...aaaand I'll post this for now, and continue in 6 hours or so for the rest, still a good 9 pages behind...
