Distance Learning for fun and profit...

It does nicely explain the little plothole of how Taylor caught broadcasts from an alien species miraculously not touched by Scion's "species," (if they can even be said to be such.) It's not that Scion's kind missed Taylor's teachers, it's that they avoided them or got taken apart shard by shard through their spatial technology. Which is a neat little bit of Deus Ex Machina, though it does greatly reduce the challenge Taylor will face eventually.

Not at all. This work is much more like space opera. It's not what's going on with Earth that's key, nor all the other Earths, it's the wider universe.

Unlike nearly every other Worm fic out there, this one takes the fact that the Entities are just one of lots and lots and lots of other high-tech civilizations out there and runs with it.

Taylor's challenges are going to be in communicating with a wide variety of interstellar species, both over subspace once she cracks transmitting, and in person when she goes into space.

Also, if that happens, the aftermath will have the PRT drastically restricted by the government(turns out that pissing off all of the other federal agencies and the military isn't a good idea) and get Cauldron panicking very badly.

Muahahaha.

Technically, Cauldron, based on its own planet, is essentially a foreign nation dedicated to infiltrating and controlling various Earth Bet organizations and governments. They have, essentially, started a secret war.

In order to get a warrant conduct a raid she would need to provide evidence to back up her claim, and her opinion would not suffice as sufficient evidence.

Exactly this. And shenanagins are going to meet lethal force first and 'well, I guess we'll let you take the Prime Asset' never.

something I think this story lacks considerably: tension.

See above. I think the aliens - the serious ones, not the Entities - are going to provide that. Maybe not even militarily, but also socially, culterally, legally, and economically.
 
Taylor's challenges are going to be in communicating with a wide variety of interstellar species, both over subspace once she cracks transmitting, and in person when she goes into space.

Which is only likely to happen if mp3.1415player doesn't just keep any alien interaction into the far future / until after Scion is killed. Because I'm honestly expecting him to end this story after Scion is dealt with.

In the end, I guess I kind of expected it. mp3.1415player usually isn't an author you go to if you want action scenes. When he does write them, he does pretty good, but he doesn't seem to like doing them, usually going in other directions. Honestly, I think it'd be easier to say he likes picking stories about violent conflict apart and laughing at the sheer silliness that results, considering what he's done with Taylor Varga.

It's just unfortunate that that often means the traditional tools for storytelling (like having opposition to cheer against and for readers to hate,) don't apply very well to this author's usual types of stories. It takes a lot of the... 'hook,' I guess, out of his works. Whatever you want to call it that keeps readers involved I guess. Fun stories when you just want something comfy to lay down with though.

I'll keep coming back for just about anything mp3.1415player writes, but likely only after whetting my appetite on other stories first. Which honestly... Its probably just the way he wants things.
 
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*sighs*

Why do people constantly think a story lacks tension or literary conflict just because one person isn't engaged in constant stressful situations and/or combat? The tension in this particular story isn't "Taylor does science", it's (so far) Cauldron trying to force things in their favor. So far, Cauldron's actions don't directly impact Taylor, while her actions have been inadvertently affecting and disrupting Cauldron. Has it occurred to people like @Mal-3 that Taylor is not the center participant of the conflict but rather the fulcrum that the conflict other people experience revolves around.

Are there any protagonists who have any tension that's not immediately solved in the following paragraph?

On a side note, what could have all the people DARPA are using been doing before they got involved here? I mean, if they could stop the E88 in their tracks with talented regular people, and didn't... why?
 
I mentioned back over on Taylor Varga that there's no real conflict or tension, and he mocked me, telling me that all I wanted was hyperviolence, and that was stupid, when that wasn't what I said at all.

He then went on and started writing Taylor is DOOMed, so...
 
Are there any protagonists who have any tension that's not immediately solved in the following paragraph?

On a side note, what could have all the people DARPA are using been doing before they got involved here? I mean, if they could stop the E88 in their tracks with talented regular people, and didn't... why?

On our Earth, it would be:

The DARPA forces are military.

On Earth Bet, presumably Posse Comitatus as well as outgrowths of whatever bizzareness prevents SWAT team snipers from slaughtering supervillains by the cartful when they act stupid in public.
 
On our Earth, it would be:

The DARPA forces are military.

On Earth Bet, presumably Posse Comitatus as well as outgrowths of whatever bizzareness prevents SWAT team snipers from slaughtering supervillains by the cartful when they act stupid in public.
One would think that domestic terrorists would be of at least some concern to the government.

But given how things turned out in Worm, I guess not.
 
One would think that domestic terrorists would be of at least some concern to the government.

But given how things turned out in Worm, I guess not.

They absolutely are!

But, on our earth at the federal level, that is mostly the FBI's bailiwick, along with the ATF and some other agencies. The CIA and the NSA and the military proper shouldn't be involved on the purely domestic side.

On Earth Bet United States, once they're classified as domestic parahuman terrorists, they're apparently in the PRT's bailiwick, and the PRT does not play ball with anyone else. Hence a very large amount of pushback coming now with Gravtech - the PRT has no goodwill with other government branches - the whole catch and release thing doesn't help them, never mind the Slaughterhouse 9, Nilbog, the Machine Army, and so on and so forth.
 
A lot of the issue seems to stem from the conflation of 'tension'/'conflict' with 'combat'. The primary complaint I see levied again and again for MPPi's writing kind of feels like it boils down to "why aren't people punching each other?"; when a lot of the actual conflict in the stories are more along the lines of the characters having to wrestle with their morals. Of being able to do immense good in the short term but potentially cause catastrophic upheavel in the process, or being able to do good in the long term but having to sit on the answer while people are in need of it.

I don't think it helps that Worm has the set up that it does. Most people write OP characters in Worm to see canon get stomped on; MPPi seems to write OP characters because Worm basically demands a rather high level of power in order to write character dramas with the canon characters (at least for those stories that want plausible happy endings that don't involve hand waving the end of the world away).
 
*sighs*

Why do people constantly think a story lacks tension or literary conflict just because one person isn't engaged in constant stressful situations and/or combat? The tension in this particular story isn't "Taylor does science", it's (so far) Cauldron trying to force things in their favor. So far, Cauldron's actions don't directly impact Taylor, while her actions have been inadvertently affecting and disrupting Cauldron. Has it occurred to people like @Mal-3 that Taylor is not the center participant of the conflict but rather the fulcrum that the conflict other people experience revolves around.
It has. But none of the people around Taylor seem to be experiencing much in the way of conflict or tension either. There are multiple different directions that this could go, all of them valid and decent paths for the story, but aren't used.
  • There could be emotional conflict between Taylor and Danny, as single dad and supergenius daughter try and find a personal balance as their lives reintersect. This is never resolved onscreen, instead Danny is pretty much cool sitcom dad from the beginning.
  • Taylor in Arcadia, adapting to the pretense of a normal life while being in a very different world from normal. That's a good source for conflict - Trailblazer uses that one, kinda introspects it to death IMO but when it clicks it clicks well - but again, Taylor just goes about being normal at school with no issues.
  • PRT vs. Pentagon is the "conflict" in the text but it's not really a conflict in the same way that a Harlem Globetrotters game is an actual basketball game. One side exists to dunk, the other to get dunked on. This is not a fair fight, nor is it a fight against an underdog, it's just constant dunking over and over again.
  • Gravtec as an organization seems to have no external threats - as noted the PRT are targets for the author's mockery, the gangs have been cowed by the Defense Department's version of Contessa (who's just as competent and badass, but she's also a redhead!) and everybody within the text seems to be pretending Endbringers are a thing.
  • Gravtec seems to have no internal threats, either. Everybody inside the company seems to be 100% pleased as punch about how things are going without any sign of dissent. No cranky, jealous grad students pissy about being shown up by a teenager, no military minds wondering how to get their golden goose more thoroughly under their wings, no union guys worried that the shop steward has become The Man, no bleeding-heart college types even remotely concerned about giving the US military the keys to infinite wunderwaffen. It's all good in Gravtec, yessir.
  • Hell, Gravtec's effects on the wider world would be interesting, but we don't even see that beyond "the streets are shinier now oh and they floated a junked freighter over to the factory building." This is massively revolutionary shit they're playing with and outside of a few government POVs (see dunk contest above) we don't get the sense that any of this stuff is being disseminated outside of Brockton Bay.
  • The only character tension I can spot in the text is Emma, who was fridged for our convenience before the story began and honestly I think we all know that Taylor will pirate something she can whip up into a healing-no-jutsu eventually so that'll be fixed without much effort in future.
So... yeah. Conflict doesn't have to involve punching each other. (Unless it's Nazis; more stories need Nazi punching which makes me very sad that the Nazis are being let off the hook here. But I digress. Which is unlike me, I know.) But the story is failing to do a good job of capitalizing on any of the stuff that I mentioned.

I stand by my analysis.
 
Oh, gods, are we doing this again? :facepalm:

I swear, every single time...

Look, I'll try to put it small words so there's no doubt about my intention, and note that I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm just tired of the same damn arguments coming up every bloody time I write something. Or for that matter, when anyone else writes something that doesn't instagib everyone in sight.

Literary conflict does not necessarily equal battles. Literary tension does not necessarily equal shit constantly gets worse.

Both of these things can be true, sure, but they don't have to. A lot of people seem utterly unable to grasp this point.

A lot of people also seem unable to grasp the point that people like different things. A story that I might think is very good is inevitably going to be one that someone else is going to think is crap, and vice versa. It's just the way life works. Creative works are subjective. There is no one 'correct' way to write a story, or compose a song, or paint a picture. There is merely what the creator wants to do, and if some other people like it, wonderful.

When someone says "This story needs x" they almost always mean "I would like this story to have x" and also miss the last few words of the first statement, which are "in my opinion." You're asking for a personalized story. That's fine, and if you approach an author and make it worth their while they'll probably write you a personalized story. You'll find that a lot of other people will immediately complain that it's not done right and what they want is y. And so on.

But when someone is writing a story that's not specifically done for you, you get what they write. If you're lucky they'll agree that some reader ideas are worth incorporating. Most of the time they'll just write the way they want to write. That's how it works.

You're joining in on a trip to a destination someone else has set. Don't complain halfway there that you actually wanted to go to Disney World instead and everyone is being mean by not letting you :)

If you want a story where everyone dies horribly for stupid reasons, or gets maimed, or wreaks bloody vengeance on half the country, there are plenty of those. Hell, I've written at least one like that. This story, at least so far since no one but me knows where it's going yet, isn't one of them. Neither is Taylor Varga, which I'm fully aware annoys a lot of people who want to see blood on the walls and has become fashionable to hate for various reasons. If that's what you're into, fine and dandy, but expecting every story written to cater to that specific scenario is as pointless as expecting every story written to be soft and fluffy, and just as unreasonable.

I know that there are many fans of Worm who can't understand why anyone would like a story that doesn't have some gruesome death every two chapters, and many people who are clearly stupid running around shooting each other in the face. Equally, there are many people who like some of the concepts from that story but want to remove some of the gratuitous and frankly rather ridiculous idiot balls from play and see what happens. I'm clearly one of them, and there are lots of others.

Ultimately, when someone complains that a story isn't going the way they want and it should be changed to go the way they want, it mostly comes off as a level of entitlement and, to be blunt, arrogance in assuming that they know better than everyone else what's correct. That may not be how it's intended but it's often how it reads. Clearly, there are a lot of people who enjoy my stories, if only going by the sheer number of likes and whatnot in various places. Just as clearly, there are a lot of people who hate everything I do. I can't change that, no matter what I actually write, and I don't actually care anyway.

You can't please everyone at the same time.

It says so right at the beginning of every story I post. I wish people would read that, and understand it. Then we might not have to have this same pointless argument in every thread :)

In the end, if I want to write a story featuring ultraviolence, I'll do it, and if I want to write a story that's character driven rather than situation driven, I'll do that instead. I may even do both at the same time. But complaining that any of them isn't exactly what you want will only get a shrug, this exposition, and the advice that if you don't like it why are you reading it?

🤷‍♂️

It's a zero sum game. Anyone I please will be matched by someone I displease. Much easier to simply ignore that and write a story I want to write, which is generally a story I'd like to read.

And if you really want a story that does exactly what you want, there's absolutely nothing stopping you, whoever you are, from writing it. All you need is the ability to type and some imagination. Go wild, have fun, and in a very short time you too will have people bitching that you're doing it all wrong! :evil:
 
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...Look, I read, and enjoy reading, your stories, but there really does tend to be a pattern of 'nothing unexpected happens' in them. DOOMlor always blows up her problems with overwhelming firepower, Distance Taylor always does SCIENCE! to it, Taylor Varga is always a trolling lizard, and nothing approaches them on any other avenue. I see the same pattern in things like Mauling Snarks, for that matter. You don't need to change that, sure, that's your prerogative as an author, but that's different from 'someone wants a gruesome death every 2 chapters' and I really hope you know it.

That's all I'm going to say on this.
 
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I've reminded of an old comment from some professional author or other that an important component of being a writer is "rhino hide", because no matter what tons of people are going to rip into your beloved creation and condemn it in every way imaginable.
 
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...Look, I read, and enjoy reading, your stories, but there really does tend to be a pattern of 'nothing unexpected happens' in them. DOOMlor always blows up her problems with overwhelming firepower, Distance Taylor always does SCIENCE! to it, Taylor Varga is always a trolling lizard. I see the same pattern in things like Mauling Snarks, for that matter. You don't need to change that, sure, that's your prerogative as an author, but that's different from 'someone wants a gruesome death every 2 chapters' and I really hope you know it.

That's all I'm going to say on this.

Of course I know it. I also know based on quite a lot of comments and PMs I've gotten over the years that a large number of people really do just want lots of dead bodies around the place, and get very upset when it doesn't happen. If that's what they like, fine, but for the most part I don't want to write that sort of thing.

I could, but I don't really enjoy it, so I don't. One day perhaps I might.

People will rue that day.

:)
 
but there really does tend to be a pattern of 'nothing unexpected happens' in them.

You might enjoy "For the Honor of the Regiment"... I know I did!

But I'm also perfectly happy with the 'nothing unexpected' stories - to me, they're full of different and new stuff, it's just not all that sploidy.

But that's ok, we don't have to agree with each other either :)
 
A lot of the issue seems to stem from the conflation of 'tension'/'conflict' with 'combat'. The primary complaint I see levied again and again for MPPi's writing kind of feels like it boils down to "why aren't people punching each other?"; when a lot of the actual conflict in the stories are more along the lines of the characters having to wrestle with their morals. Of being able to do immense good in the short term but potentially cause catastrophic upheavel in the process, or being able to do good in the long term but having to sit on the answer while people are in need of it.

I don't think it helps that Worm has the set up that it does. Most people write OP characters in Worm to see canon get stomped on; MPPi seems to write OP characters because Worm basically demands a rather high level of power in order to write character dramas with the canon characters (at least for those stories that want plausible happy endings that don't involve hand waving the end of the world away).

But that moral conflict gets presented as fait accompli off screen, with self-congratulatory remarks about how well it was done and that we continue to do so.

I mean, in this story, I'd massively enjoy a side-plot of Taylor getting a stumbling block that she can't work around, that takes weeks and weeks of fruitless struggles. Then, once it's nearly been given up upon, an off-hand comment from a side character provides an eureka moment, and people start paying attention to the person running through the streets shouting 'Eureka!'

That word, and that story have persisted for millennia due to the ability to relate to struggle and accomplishment.

Dragon: Can you tell me cool thing?
Armsmaster: No.
Dragon: Ah, I understand.
Armsmater: You'll find out soon.
Dragon: Happy.

It shows a deep understanding of concepts that are far beyond currently accepted theoretical limits."

"Fascinating. Truly fascinating," Dragon mused.
Dragon: Fascinated by something with no testable peer-reviewed evidence.

"Over the years I've studied a lot of other Tinker work, yours included," he eventually said. "For want of a better term, there's a… pattern… to it. Even with my own work. Aspects of how the device in question is made, tiny tells in the basic design, minor similarities or indeed differences between different people's work in the same area… You learn to spot it if you look carefully enough."

She nodded slowly, looking thoughtful. "I understand what you mean, although it's not really something I've had to talk about before."
I see, no one has talked to one of the most well known tinkers in the world about how tinkertech might actually work, nor has Dragon voiced their opinion on such. This is new ground.

Characters seem to only ever have competence in how closely they are to protagonist position. These two respect Gravtec, so now they seem to be become competent from good vibes.

TL;DR: Air-head Dragon hot-take.
 
Gravtec as an organization seems to have no external threats - as noted the PRT are targets for the author's mockery, the gangs have been cowed by the Defense Department's version of Contessa (who's just as competent and badass, but she's also a redhead!) and everybody within the text seems to be pretending Endbringers are a thing.
Being under the protection of the ENTIRETY of the USA government's protection can have some serious impacts on how easy it is for any external actor to interfere.
Gravtec seems to have no internal threats, either. Everybody inside the company seems to be 100% pleased as punch about how things are going without any sign of dissent. No cranky, jealous grad students pissy about being shown up by a teenager, no military minds wondering how to get their golden goose more thoroughly under their wings, no union guys worried that the shop steward has become The Man, no bleeding-heart college types even remotely concerned about giving the US military the keys to infinite wunderwaffen. It's all good in Gravtec, yessir.
Internal screening(discreetly by various agencies) can do quite a lot*. Combine that with some undercover members of Taylor's protective detail and you can easily find those insider threats to be quickly dealt with.
Hell, Gravtec's effects on the wider world would be interesting, but we don't even see that beyond "the streets are shinier now oh and they floated a junked freighter over to the factory building." This is massively revolutionary shit they're playing with and outside of a few government POVs (see dunk contest above) we don't get the sense that any of this stuff is being disseminated outside of Brockton Bay.
DARPA is still researching and trying to find ways to control this tech(negative effects/abuses). Have you seen this post of mine's yet? The moment that the grav drive gets released openly to the public or even dispersed into the general military is the moment that eternal threat actors will definitely know about this tech and have a far larger chance to steal said tech. Local criminals can abuse this(at least tinkers can do some very nasty stuff). Any foreign powers will likely understand the implications of the new tech and will try to control(source of(Taylor/GravTech)/steal tech examples/deny others) it.

* Legality can be handled by merely wanting to make sure that TOP SECRET technology(Probably COSMIC level later on when the tech is shared to NATO members) remains secure. A lot of things can be justified with that rationale.
 
...Look, I read, and enjoy reading, your stories, but there really does tend to be a pattern of 'nothing unexpected happens' in them. DOOMlor always blows up her problems with overwhelming firepower, Distance Taylor always does SCIENCE! to it, Taylor Varga is always a trolling lizard, and nothing approaches them on any other avenue. I see the same pattern in things like Mauling Snarks, for that matter. You don't need to change that, sure, that's your prerogative as an author, but that's different from 'someone wants a gruesome death every 2 chapters' and I really hope you know it.

That's all I'm going to say on this.
Assuming this is accurate, which... it somewhat is, that doesn't make them bad stories. That makes them predictable, yes, but that very factor means that people complaining about that very predictability have even less ground to stand on while complaining about it being predictable.

Edit: and really, "Person is really good at X, and leans into that" isn't a bad way to have things go.

I enjoy them.
I've reminded of an old comment from some professional author or other that an important component of being a writer is "rhino hide", because no matter what tons of people are going to rip into your beloved creation and condemn it in every way imaginable.
And yet, this is a forum for amateur authors, writing mostly for fun, and with an expectation that people here will behave better than the average shithead. Maybe just buffalo-hide.
 
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Oh, for...

Fine, you are free to think that. As the story hasn't yet finished, any conclusions you have come to can and may be invalidated by future chapters. I can expand many of these scenes to add in all the stuff some people seem to want, but then I'll invariably get other people complaining that I'm talking to much and should leave it up to their imaginations. As I said, I can't win.

Aha! I know! I can add the unexpected by having someone accidentally trigger a reaction in subspace that instantly destroys the planet! That will make a phenomonal story, right? Just think of all the sudden alterations to predictability!

But now I've gone and ruined it by mentioning it. Damn. I really can't win.

Pretend you didn't see that, and act surprised at the appropriate time, OK? :)
 
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Anyways..

How will Cauldron get discovered?
-Legend "defecting"?
-Deep dive into RCB after her attempts to probe for information passes a certain point?
-A Contessa plan getting derailed via butterfly effects from BB?
-Taylor discovering other worlds and an exploration mission by some military forces finding the hidden Cauldron base?
-Anything else?

Taking bets here! Wining this bet gives you the right to gloat about how you predicted the events and nothing else. Also providing internet cookies.

EDIT: FYI the two lists here are incomplete and not up to date. Please read further into the thread to find the most current version.
 
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Literary conflict does not necessarily equal battles. Literary tension does not necessarily equal shit constantly gets worse.

Both of these things can be true, sure, but they don't have to. A lot of people seem utterly unable to grasp this point.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. I mean, it's factually accurate, but I'm curious as to the point.

What I mean is: this story does not have tension. And I don't mean that there's no people going pew pew at each other, I mean in the broad term. Conflict and tension require, y'know, things to be tense. This story doesn't have that. And that's not a complaint, just an observation. This is a slice of life story without conflict, no stress, no tense edge of your seat moments. And I don't think you want it to be tense. And that's OK.

So I'm a bit confused on your argument. I mean, if I understand correctly you're saying 'your understanding of conflict is wrong', while it's more accurate to just say 'this is not a story with conflict, its just a meandering journey type story'.

Big of an odd argument to bring up, is all I'm saying.
 
This story is also only 11 chapters so far, and has hardly started, so it's early days to have lots of tension of any form. That said, there are all sorts of things building up around the place, so who knows what will happen later?

Me.

I know.

No one else.

;)

And I'm not just talking about this story, anyway. It's merely a common complaint.

"Nothing happened," is something I see on my own stories, and lots of other people's writing, as code for "No one died in this chapter." 🤷‍♂️

It's just a thing. Can't change it, don't feel like worrying about it, I just get a little tired when it pops up.

Anyway, I've said my piece, so now I'm going to write more words in which nothing happens.

Or... am I?
 
...Look, I read, and enjoy reading, your stories, but there really does tend to be a pattern of 'nothing unexpected happens' in them. DOOMlor always blows up her problems with overwhelming firepower, Distance Taylor always does SCIENCE! to it, Taylor Varga is always a trolling lizard, and nothing approaches them on any other avenue. I see the same pattern in things like Mauling Snarks, for that matter. You don't need to change that, sure, that's your prerogative as an author, but that's different from 'someone wants a gruesome death every 2 chapters' and I really hope you know it.

That's all I'm going to say on this.

I don't really agree.

Taylor Varga, sure. But that's a fundamental design of the story - the unexpected stuff is happening to other people. It's a natural consequence of the power set, plus the fact that there's a semi-friendly ROB setting up amusing coincidences in the background. If something unexpectedly bad happened to Taylor in that story I'd be seriously confused.

Quite a lot goes bad in Mauling Snarks from what I remember, but different author so I won't go deep into that here.

In terms of mppi stories, quite a bit goes bad for Taylor in the Doom Queen series. Yes, she eventually ascends to a memetic badass, but there's a lot of mistakes and dying to reach that level.

In terms of this story, I think complaints are premature. We're still in the prologue. Yes, all the early threats you normally see in Worm have either been neutralized, or we've seen foreshadowing that their actions are predicted. That's because the author has written a competent DARPA with strong military support. They should be able to handle this stuff. It doesn't happen in canon because they don't care about Brockton and because Cauldron is Cauldron.
 
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