Colliding Souls (Apocrypha style Grail War OOC/Interest check)

Olive said:
I feel like instantly opting to use super strength to hurl rocks at Masters is something that can be broadly considered 'bad form.'
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Why? Killing the masters is broadly know as the simplest and most efficient way to win.
This is like saying that chasing your enemy is a bad form because you're faster than them. It's just the bare matter of using your abilities.
"Oh no! You're better than your opponent! Let's limit your strength so they don't feel bad! Let's use strategies which ensure we don't win!"
 
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willyvereb said:
Why? Killing the masters is broadly know as the simplest and most efficient way to win.
This is like saying that chasing your enemy is a bad form because you're faster than them. It's just the bare matter of using your abilities.
"Oh no! You're better than your opponent! Let's limit your strength so they don't feel bad! Let's use strategies which ensure we don't win!"
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"Lets leverage the most basic of Servant abilities to bypass the other players as quickly as possible!"

As well as the problems that arise from that kind of attitude, it's just further yanks on the much-worn canon string, whereby the Masters who didn't pull a Knight class Servant are at once disadvantaged against those who did; Knights having generally greater strength and, by extension, a greater range to their throws.

It turns it from a "fair" competition to a game where the objective is to tank the hardest, except 3/7 participants can break down walls with piteous ease and the only Servant designed with tanking even partially in mind can be overcome by a "creatively" magic resistant rock thrown from the other side of town.
 
Olive said:
"Lets leverage the most basic of Servant abilities to bypass the other players as quickly as possible!"

As well as the problems that arise from that kind of attitude, it's just further yanks on the much-worn canon string, whereby the Masters who didn't pull a Knight class Servant are at once disadvantaged against those who did; Knights having generally greater strength and, by extension, a greater range to their throws.

It turns it from a "fair" competition to a game where the objective is to tank the hardest, except 3/7 participants can break down walls with piteous ease and the only Servant designed with tanking even partially in mind can be overcome by a "creatively" magic resistant rock thrown from the other side of town.
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Its not gonna be magic resistant

It will, literally, be a rock

That is thrown.

Also I'm not playing a Knight Class.
 
TehChron said:
A good number of people involved in this RP have committed far worse violations of that recently.

It's very frustrating being the better man when your sense of fair play is not returned in kind.
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I'm kind of curious who and what exactly you're referring to here, but I doubt actually asking specifically would be a good idea. So... I dunno, condolences, hope things don't repeat themselves?
 
Mortifer said:
It's been a while, hasn't it?

Sorry for not doing anything on this for a while. I just thought I'd give prior warning. My schedule is about to clear up a bit, so I'll be able to work on GMing this RP again soon. If anyone no longer wishes to participate, I'll arrange for you to be replaced

Also... I hate to say this, but using game mechanics was a mistake. I think that, in order to make it easier to run this RP, we should switch over to freeform. If everyone still wants to use the mechanics, I'll stick with that. If you don't mind freeform, though, then I'll have to ask that you edit your sheets in PM, and remove all the basic skills.

I'll let you decide amongst yourselves which you would prefer.
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It's fine with me, but in the interest of fairness I have to ask if we need to renegotiate the restrictions to our most glorious king of heroes. They were placed on her with the game mechanics in mind, with those gone the only one that I can think is still relevant would be the one on my noble phantasm. Unless you want to cover it with a blanked "don't be a dick" clause.
 
Olive said:
"Lets leverage the most basic of Servant abilities to bypass the other players as quickly as possible!"

As well as the problems that arise from that kind of attitude, it's just further yanks on the much-worn canon string, whereby the Masters who didn't pull a Knight class Servant are at once disadvantaged against those who did; Knights having generally greater strength and, by extension, a greater range to their throws.

It turns it from a "fair" competition to a game where the objective is to tank the hardest, except 3/7 participants can break down walls with piteous ease and the only Servant designed with tanking even partially in mind can be overcome by a "creatively" magic resistant rock thrown from the other side of town.
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...did you ever play the VN or even saw anything from the Fate series?
Going after the masters is the first thing unless you're prideful as hell... or being Shirou.
The only reason this doesn't happen so often because:
1.) Servants are there to protect them, and no, aside from perhaps Asassin all of them have the means if you know what to do
2.) Unlike you masters in the series have enough brains to hide and prepare for the contingency in case of they're being attacked

Seriously, if you have problems with something as basic as this, then don't play. Holy Grail War is no fair competition. It's a war of seven (or in this case 14) magi for their dearest wish. And they're willing to do everything to get it. That's the basic premise.
Attacking Masters doesn't even scrape the surface of the depths what kind of abuses people can do. If you can't deal with somebody throwing a rock or even an entire car at you then it's better if you resign in time.
 
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willyvereb said:
2.) Unlike you masters in the series have enough brains to hide and prepare for the contingency in case of they're being attacked
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...Olive is Caster by the way. You aught to at least know who's playing what if you're going to insult them.

Regardless, I doubt Mort would be all like "Oh yeah, that servant threw a rock. That master is tots dead now."
 
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Narcissist said:
...Olive is Caster by the way. You aught to at least know who's playing what if you're going to insult them.
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Maybe if this was a new game. I submitted a few profiles for this back in the time and didn't get selected.
I just got the alerts so I joined the discussion.
Also my argument has nothing to do with his character. If he thinks somebody throwing rocks at Masters is OP he has much learning to do.
 
willyvereb said:
Also my argument has nothing to do with his character. If he thinks somebody throwing rocks at Masters is OP he has much learning to do.
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cheers m9, i think the best of you as well

The issue I take isn't: "Golly gosh gee whizz, who would do such a thing?" in regards to the killing of Masters. I mean, Assassin exists. That is literally the purpose of that class - ignoring for the moment their lack of great successes in canon. And it's not the ability - and broad willingness - to commit acts of wanton depravity held by the majority of magi thats the issue either.

The rocks being OP isn't even the issue I was attempting to address. It's much more the mindset implied by such an act. Like, if you're joining an RP, presumably it's to participate with the other posters. Throwing rocks to kill masters strikes me as a bit, y'know, rude in that respect.

Like... imagine if you were playing chess. You're through the opening gambits fine, maybe lost a pawn or two, then the other guy announces that because he can see your king from where he's sitting he wins the game.

But anyway, I digress. In case you'd forgotten (I had), my original point wasn't even to do with the OPness of any given tactic - I'd have sent in nothing but Knight Servants if that was my concern - it was simply a raised eyebrow at such a declaration.

And besides, I think Narcissist has the right of it. @Mortifer wouldn't intentionally screw us over, would he?
 
Co-GM here.

All concerned, back to your respective corners, we're done.

@Olive , @TehChron if you could bring your concerns up in a PM with meself & Senoir Mort we'll address them as best we can, everyone else, this particular tangent is over, find something else to discuss.
 
Olive said:
cheers m9, i think the best of you as well

The issue I take isn't: "Golly gosh gee whizz, who would do such a thing?" in regards to the killing of Masters. I mean, Assassin exists. That is literally the purpose of that class - ignoring for the moment their lack of great successes in canon. And it's not the ability - and broad willingness - to commit acts of wanton depravity held by the majority of magi thats the issue either.

The rocks being OP isn't even the issue I was attempting to address. It's much more the mindset implied by such an act. Like, if you're joining an RP, presumably it's to participate with the other posters. Throwing rocks to kill masters strikes me as a bit, y'know, rude in that respect.

Like... imagine if you were playing chess. You're through the opening gambits fine, maybe lost a pawn or two, then the other guy announces that because he can see your king from where he's sitting he wins the game.

But anyway, I digress. In case you'd forgotten (I had), my original point wasn't even to do with the OPness of any given tactic - I'd have sent in nothing but Knight Servants if that was my concern - it was simply a raised eyebrow at such a declaration.

And besides, I think Narcissist has the right of it. @Mortifer wouldn't intentionally screw us over, would he?
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Yup, no hard feelings here, either.
Well, if your Master can get screwed over by a Servant just lazily throwing a rock at his direction then it'd be a glaring issue to begin with.
Everyone is guarding their asses, or should do it, during this game. That's the basics.
Well, yeah, killing a player early in the game is kind of a dick move but with freeform this would practically never happen. This is actuall the mixed wonders and horros of freeform RP battles. the player who gets attacked writes down the results. So in theory no harm can come in your way unless you will it.
Of course there's common sense and suspension of disbelief to consider so it basically translates back to "you sruvive anything but situations where you can't imagine a realistic escape". But well, while this is an interesting topic I am getting off-track.

Nah, having knight classes is nice but the enemy having them doesn't put you in a disadvantage even if that Servant would directly plan to assassinate your master. You imply as if only Knight Classes can smash walls or do other things. Well, for starters even Masters can do that much but that's of course not the point. The point is that so long they have the skills and stats any Servant can fight a knightly class. Hell, given examples I'd say one of the Knightly classes is actually inferior in the brawl compared to any but usually Assassins and Casters. Yup, the Archer class. Sure, the tradeoff is that they're damn good snipers but that wasn't part of the discussion. Riders and Berserkers can easily hold their ground against Saber and Lancer if the tactics are fine and the respective classes are aware of each other's features. Caster's case is more trick but basically you are prep god and you must have bunch of magically assisted contigency plans for most occasions. Either way "rock falls and your Master dies" is hardly a scenario.
Assassins are kind of a different scenario because they're classically underpowered but well, there are exceptions. That Assassin teams are sneaky lot operating under low profile so they are far less likel to be attacked. If they do, they very much fucked it up.
 
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I'd like to point out that Rocks fall, Assassin kills the other Masters is canon for when there's enough Grail Wars.
Eventually, people started teaming up as soon as Assassin was confirmed to be summoned.
(Given the 'team' nature of this, not quite as an issue, though.)
 
willyvereb said:
Yup, no hard feelings here, either.
Well, if your Master can get screwed over by a Servant just lazily throwing a rock at his direction then it'd be a glaring issue to begin with.
Everyone is guarding their asses, or should do it, during this game. That's the basics.
Well, yeah, killing a player early in the game is kind of a dick move but with freeform this would practically never happen. This is actuall the mixed wonders and horros of freeform RP battles. the player who gets attacked writes down the results. So in theory no harm can come in your way unless you will it.
Of course there's common sense and suspension of disbelief to consider so it basically translates back to "you sruvive anything but situations where you can't imagine a realistic escape". But well, while this is an interesting topic I am getting off-track.

Nah, having knight classes is nice but the enemy having them doesn't put you in a disadvantage even if that Servant would directly plan to assassinate your master. You imply as if only Knight Classes can smash walls or do other things. Well, for starters even Masters can do that much but that's of course not the point. The point is that so long they have the skills and stats any Servant can fight a knightly class. Hell, given examples I'd say one of the Knightly classes is actually inferior in the brawl compared to any but usually Assassins and Casters. Yup, the Archer class. Sure, the tradeoff is that they're damn good snipers but that wasn't part of the discussion. Riders and Berserkers can easily hold their ground against Saber and Lancer if the tactics are fine and the respective classes are aware of each other's features. Caster's case is more trick but basically you are prep god and you must have bunch of magically assisted contigency plans for most occasions. Either way "rock falls and your Master dies" is hardly a scenario.
Assassins are kind of a different scenario because they're classically underpowered but well, there are exceptions. That Assassin teams are sneaky lot operating under low profile so they are far less likel to be attacked. If they do, they very much fucked it up.
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Grue said:
I'd like to point out that Rocks fall, Assassin kills the other Masters is canon for when there's enough Grail Wars.
Eventually, people started teaming up as soon as Assassin was confirmed to be summoned.

(Given the 'team' nature of this, not quite as an issue, though.)
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Wade Garrett said:
everyone else, this particular tangent is over, find something else to discuss.
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Sorry Wade, but I'm physically incapable of taking you seriously

I tried, but each time I made the attempt I started laughing instead

Weird
 
Yeah, I'm up for continuing this, Berserker is fun to play. He's kinda terrible at tactics but does have some threatening tricks.
 
Wade Garrett said:
@Olive , @TehChron if you could bring your concerns up in a PM with meself & Senoir Mort we'll address them as best we can, everyone else, this particular tangent is over, find something else to discuss.
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Sorry for going on. I've said everything I think I wanted to.

Yeah, I'm keen to carry on, and I'm keen for a freeform style. Caster has to get a chance somewhere, and god knows it's not going to come from her stats.
 
Since the verdict seems to be unanimous, we're switching over to freeform.

I'll go find all the old Servants sheets, and help people edit them to fit the new format. As a general rule, 6 skills at the maximum. Hopefully, balancing this won't take as long as last time...
 
Mortifer said:
Since the verdict seems to be unanimous, we're switching over to freeform.

I'll go find all the old Servants sheets, and help people edit them to fit the new format. As a general rule, 6 skills at the maximum. Hopefully, balancing this won't take as long as last time...
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Would it be easier if I dug the original of my sheet out of Google Drive and we work from there?
 
BlackHadou said:
Would it be easier if I dug the original of my sheet out of Google Drive and we work from there?
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I dunno. Just do what you think would be simpler.


Also, just as a note for when sheets are being redone: To avoid people dropping Divinity straight-up to make room for other Skills, we're dropping it as a skill. When anti-Divinity abilities come up, they will still work. It'll just work more along the lines of Arturia's dragon weakness- Not on the sheet, but still a thing. That should make it easier for people to make a decision about their Skills.
 
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