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I kind of did spell out what I meant with this in the paragraph following that. Have you just... stopped reading there? It isn't that religious people are evil when they practice religion (unless it drives them to do evil things, of course). Rather, if religion is per se evil (which I don't believe, it's far more complex; that was just my example, to show that can be a perfectly valid argument to make) then religious people are the ones affected by that evilness. The religious people themselves would then rather be victims of that evilness. Thus, it isn't necessarily an attack on them as people as 1986 claimed.
That argument ignores individual agency. If one chooses to be part of an objectively evil faith (which does not exist IRL, given we are clearly in the realm of abstract and theoretical discussion) then one has chosen to be evil. Naturally, this relies on whether or not you believe religious faith to be a choice, but choosing to be part of an evil system makes one complicit in that evil.
 
That argument ignores individual agency. If one chooses to be part of an objectively evil faith (which does not exist IRL, given we are clearly in the realm of abstract and theoretical discussion) then one has chosen to be evil. Naturally, this relies on whether or not you believe religious faith to be a choice, but choosing to be part of an evil system makes one complicit in that evil.
Only if you join in the full knowledge of all facts, and hence in full knowledge that what the faith is doing and affecting is in fact evil.

As @Aris Katsaris said:
"if a religion is considered to be evil because the religion is a lie, then a person honestly believing in that religion is obviously not morally blameworthy for honestly believing in that lie. They're instead a *victim* of the lie."

In the same vein, to continue my example, if you think that said dogmatism is actually a good thing, because you believe, as part of your religion, that ensures more people will enter heaven - that is, if you think that because of what your religion has sold you, then you aren't in full knowledge of all facts. The evil here is then exactly that religion is selling you an untruth, leading to negative outcomes.
 
Y'all have been warned with a feather that this has strayed well past the scope of the ATC thread, and I suspect that if this continues, you will be warned with a brick.

Probably best make a thread in the communications subforum or something.

Edit: ninja'd.
 
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There is a general belief - you can dispute whether it's reasonable or appropriate or not, but it exists - that religion is not a choice, like political ideology, but a pseudo-innate characteristic. The law - and our own policies as well - accept that difference.

There's a difference between saying "homosexuality is evil" and "conservatism is evil".

What on Satan's green earth are you talking about? Nobody's born a Christian.

E: D'oh, there's another page with a "knock it off". :/ Disregard!
 
A small question: why are certain tribunals not flagged while most are? I find it useful to check over them on occasion to get a feel for the forum, and while most have a nice clear colour for my monkey brain, others lack it entirely despite similar sentencing.

It's a minor thing, but it helps when looking specifically for not fully upheld cases, which tend to give the most insight into the specific values of councilors and staff.
 
I just read through this and it raises a related question.

To what extent is it the duty of each poster to familiarize themselves with extremist dogwhistles, hateful memes and so forth before posting?

That had nothing to do with dogwhistles and everything to do with Sarissa missing a fairly obvious reading of the comic because Sarissa was thinking in terms of the not-offensive meme Sarissa was familiar with and wanted to use.

Sarissa probably did in fact know about dogwhistles and hateful memes, but that knowledge did not help in that case because Sarissa was thinking in terms of a harmless fun meme and missed that the framing of the comic posted could be read another way.

So your example does not actually relate to your question.
 
2019-AT-12: Staff and TaliesinSkye
staff and taliesinskye
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

2019-AT-12: Staff and TaliesinSkye Upheld

I received the following threadban from moderator 1KBestK: "Your conduct in this thread, and in particular your hounding of the author on updates, has been disruptive to the author, and I will be accepting their request to remove you from the thread. Your ability to post in the thread has been...
 
A straightforward case, but also one worthy of the Council's time.

A good start to the season.
 
@EmpressSquishette, was the QM's release acquired for posting this one? I could have missed where this was covered in the thread, if it was.

In cases like this I think it would be unfair to publish the report text and private message text without agreement from the person who wrote those things.

I mean, also the identity of reporting parties should be confidential. But as pointed out in the tribunal thread it was already made clear in the quest thread who had called for the threadban.
 
While Ralson is correct that a subjective problem with the QM is an objective problem with the quest, not all subjective experiences are going to be equally valid. The Council very much avoided dealing with that, despite the fact several of them raised a metaphorical eyebrow at the two cited postings being enough, to the point we first had the false assumption that something had to be happening off-site because of that assumed insufficiency.

That assumption shaped a great deal of the following discussion because it came from an authoritative source, @Cetashwayo , but given its falsity...some of the Council phrased their discussion in such a way that it didn't matter, but asking about the limits of QM ability, but not all.
 
That assumption shaped a great deal of the following discussion because it came from an authoritative source, @Cetashwayo , but given its falsity...some of the Council phrased their discussion in such a way that it didn't matter, but asking about the limits of QM ability, but not all.

Hmm? I wasn't the source of that claim, Vecht was. I assumed when he meant 'prior experience' and 'the contents of private discussions' here he was referring to things happening off-site or at the very least out of our own ability to see them. It might have been on discord or not (I did not quantify whether it was discord) but it was hard to know what he would be getting at otherwise.

It was not allowed to reach out to Vecht and verify it during the tribunal, however, so there was a lack of clarity on what Vecht actually meant, and it was ultimately immaterial to the final decision as the rules basically allowed Vecht to do as he liked if he thought someone was disruptive. My feelings on Taliesin's rebuttal is that he could be lying or it could have been a misinterpretation, but I wasn't able to pursue it and was busy later in the week.

It was very difficult to get further context on the matter as I couldn't actually speak to Vecht or clarify anything, and I did not want to get into a situation where I was debating with an appellant the veracity of their claims or not. I was reluctant to backpeddle on these claims on the words of the appellent when the QM was not there either.
 
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@EmpressSquishette, was the QM's release acquired for posting this one? I could have missed where this was covered in the thread, if it was.

In cases like this I think it would be unfair to publish the report text and private message text without agreement from the person who wrote those things.
Good question. I considered this issue fairly carefully at the time, but decided after doing so that the report could not reasonably be considered confidential.

First, it was not, functionally, a 'report' in the classical sense. It was a request by a QM to have someone threadbanned from their thread. For that purpose, it could only have come from one person (and thus anonymity is not a concern).

Second, and to the extent that the report was intended to justify the request, it would not - except in very unusual circumstances - be considered 'confidential' any more than a moderator's rationale for thread-banning someone would be considered confidential. Keeping it confidential - particularly without extenuating reasons - would allow the Staff's decisions to avoid meaningful review: the actual rationale would be confidential, and the staff's decision would therefore not be based on anything that anyone could see.
 
Hmm? I wasn't the source of that claim, Vecht was.

Ehhh. Vecht didn't participate in the discussion in any meaningful sense. Their original report requesting the threadban made no such reference (and appeared after you made the claim anyways), and you didn't link that post either; you simply said it must be so. So yes I think it's fair to say you were the source of the claim in this discussion since there's no clear sign it came from Vecht when you mention it, or elsewhere in the thread.

Vecht's "troublemaker elsewhere" comment is easily pointed to one of the two offending posts; they caused drama in other rational community stuff on SV, since that was quite literally dragged into this thread openly.

and it was ultimately immaterial to the final decision as the rules basically allowed Vecht to do as he liked if he thought someone was disruptive.

But A: I acknowledged that, and B: Squishy did invite, as was pointed out, commentary on this, but the Council more or less avoided offering it and stuck to a judicial role of deciding if the rules had been followed, not exercising their advisory function, or exercising it by refusing to comment and giving tacit support. Despite some of them expressing reservations about it, no one opted to suggest any changes.
 
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Interesting.

I can't disagree with the council on factual grounds, but the procedures and guidelines surrounding OP-requested threadbans need to be both public and clear, and they very much were not going into this tribunal.

Now, I have seen some posters removed from threads at OP request for being disruptive (see, any thread where a particular poster posting turns the thread into "Attempt to argue with this person power hour", but that's covered under the Rules anyway)

So I suppose it comes down to two things:
1) What's the threshold for being disruptive?
2) Should appealing an OP-requested threadban be harder or easier than appealing a staff-based puntitive threadban?
 
Ehhh. Vecht didn't participate in the discussion in any meaningful sense. Their original report requesting the threadban made no such reference (and appeared after you made the claim anyways), and you didn't link that post either; you simply said it must be so. So yes I think it's fair to say you were the source of the claim in this discussion since there's no clear sign it came from Vecht when you mention it, or elsewhere in the thread.

The Council had information collected in the Council Discord before it was given in the tribunal thread. My tribunal posts were the culmination of discussion, not the only source of them, and were drawn from reasonable inferences of Vecht's posts. We could, after all, all read the report well before it was posted in the tribunal. Councilors have wide oversight and research powers including report access.

My failure was neglecting the public element of the discussion and that from the user-side it seemed as though I was making the claim independently, which I acknowledge and apologize for, but I did not mislead the other councilors and they are capable of thinking for themselves- I do not believe I was the original person who ascertained off-site interaction, as a number of councilors came to the same conclusion together. I do not believe the implication of the claim, that I was misleading other councilors, is true, although if other councilors disagree they can speak up and I would be happy to apologize.

Many of the current councilors are accomplished people, former councilors, or incumbents, and thus I think my voice is just as authoritative as anyone else's on this matter where I had no special advantage or knowledge; I had drafted the rules before this came into effect, and I had no experience with the rationalist community. I do not think I had any special influence through that voice on the tribunal.

But A: I acknowledged that, and B: Squishy did invite, as was pointed out, commentary on this, but the Council more or less avoided offering it and stuck to a judicial role of deciding if the rules had been followed, not exercising their advisory function, or exercising it by refusing to comment and giving tacit support. Despite some of them expressing reservations about it, no one opted to suggest any changes.

It was fairly difficult to juggle all three criteria in a single thread, though. I was personally hoping for additional prompting from the administrator which didn't come to discuss #2 further and #3 had very little discussion at all- the tribunal was posted publicly without any council discussion on whether or not the thread should be posted and no opportunities for council revision or conclusion, which I felt was simply because this was our first tribunal and we were getting used to the new format. A more sequential format in which each question was put to us after the previous question had been exhausted would have been more useful.

I appreciate the criticism, by the way. It's good to have public attention on the tribunals and for people to actively work through them and ask questions of councilors.
 
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I think Vecht should have shared his side of the story, without it I find the entire thing to be dubious at best.

This should not have been upheld.
 
I think Vecht's characterization of TaliesinSkye's supposed behavior would itself be a Rule 3 violation if public. Do lower standards apply to the contents of reports?
 
I think Vecht should have shared his side of the story, without it I find the entire thing to be dubious at best.

This should not have been upheld.

Frankly, there's no reason for us to make the QM interact with someone they don't want to and so overturning this was never really in the cards. QMs have fairly broad discretion when it comes to requesting that people be removed from their threads.
 
Do lower standards apply to the contents of reports?
They kind of ought to.

I mean, if a report describes as poster as being mentally deficient by means of an ablist slur, that should probably earn some consequence for the reporter.

But if a reporter isn't particularly mindful or just uses harsh language that doesn't inherently attack vulnerable populations then, like, the importance of not discouraging report submission probably outweighs the importance of moderation staff not having to read a phrase like, "This chucklefuck is wrong and also fucks their laundry. Also they're engaging in ad hominem."
 
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