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The Second Reconstruction-A Post-Civil War Kaiserreich USA Quest

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01paradox01 said:
The Atlantic is much less wide than the pacific, and yet the United States was able to fight the Japanese navy effectively. We can simply refuel in Iceland, or the Azores if Portugal joins us. As for the thousands of miles of supply lines, did you read what I previously wrote? Or are you just conviently ignoring it? If we can get Ireland into the Entente, which shouldn't be impossible with Ireland's ties to the US, we can 'easily' supply our invasion.
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Look, the Pacific had a hundred little islands, the Philpines and Australia for a base and an invasion of Japan still would have been a nightmare on a scale hard for American minds to comperhend.

Britian requires us getting both Spain and France on side, and then mounting at least a two year long prep, oh and destroying the UOB navy. I mean, if Jee offfers us the opportunity to do it, I'm all for it, but if we stick to realism, then no, alas I don't think a invasion of Britian is on the table.
 
01paradox01 said:
The Atlantic is much less wide than the pacific, and yet the United States was able to fight the Japanese navy effectively. We can simply refuel in Iceland, or the Azores if Portugal joins us. As for the thousands of miles of supply lines, did you read what I previously wrote? Or are you just conviently ignoring it? If we can get Ireland into the Entente, which shouldn't be impossible with Ireland's ties to the US, we can easily supply our invasion.
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We should be careful about derailing. Maybe you could type a response, and take the final word? I don't want to get too far away from the actual story.

When we first fought the Japanese Navy in the Pacific, we were both fighting away from our nations. They came out to give battle among island chains that were distant from both America and Japan. The British have absolutely no reason to come out and fight. Even if we did establish a base in Iceland, we would still be fighting them very very far from our own airfields, while they would have full access to land-based air.

So your plan is to recruit Ireland...into an alliance that includes the British Empire...so that they can restore royalist rule over Britain. I see absolutely no reason for them to agree. Ireland's warm ties with America don't mean that they have a happy relationship with Britain. IRL, they refused to enter the Second World War, choosing to remain neutral. Why wouldn't they do the same here? Syndicalist Britain hasn't invaded them, which is more than Royalist Britain can say.

We would be launching an invasion across three thousand miles of ocean, against one of the most powerful navies in the world. Our enemies would be fighting on their home ground, with full access to land-based aircraft, shells coming directly out of their factories, and they would have the ability to mobilize their population, while we would be limited to the soldiers we could transport across three thousand miles.

Compared to this, D-Day would be a walk in the park. Iwo Jima would be a beach vacation.
 
I'd also like to note that the Feds win, or at the very least, survive, so I feel no rush to write the Entente a blank cheque to avoid losing. I want to see how this plays out.

Canada will have to get involved sooner or later. Despite what the mod itself says, they're a complete paper tiger. Their population is one tenth the size of America's, located almost entirely in three city areas: Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. It has a fraction the industry that America does. It's army is smaller than any side of the civil war. It's navy is bloated with literally no ports big enough to house the whole thing. It doesn't have the money or manpower to maintain anything but a fraction of the former British Navy. The rest is rusting away or been scrapped to afford keeping the rest afloat.

Canadian intervention means a few thousand soldiers backed by RCMP officers rush in to start gunning down protestors, strikers, and militias, then get pushed back when they fight actual red guard units. The CSA is going to be churning out more heavy artillery and war machines than Canada, or the rest of the Entente combined. Australia is even less developed than Canada with less industry, ports, and manpower. France's army is gutted and fighting an unending insurgency across North and West Africa. Algeria is a settler export colony with next to no industry. The Raj is imploding in slow motion and basically a scheme by British aligned princes to wring blood from a stone to get British support to help them conquer India for themselves. South Africa is on the verge of civil war or revolution and likely going to join the Pakt if the Boers win or Internationale if the workers win.

The Entente is a alliance of pathetic powers pretending they still rule the world. Canada barely tolerates the King's militaristic fantasies. It doesn't like the CSA obviously, so it will probably tolerate fighting them, but full scale invasion or even fighting America wouldn't fly. The King needs American approval to put boots on the ground in New England. If we say no, we might cause a crisis in Canadian with the King trying to do so anyway against the wishes of the Prime Minister, since it'd mean declaring war on America.
 
[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
I already said why I preferred the middle path. The Entente will almost certainly seize our terrority even if we refuse the offer, but joining them outright would be considered bowing to foreign powers. However, since it doesn't seem like most agree..

[X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.
Simply because if we'll going to have to do yet another war after the civil war, doing a naval invasion and liberation of Panama and Hawaii from an Entente occupying force will be far easier and practical than trying to invade the Union of British from across the Atlantic.
 
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Fission Battery said:
I'd also like to note that the Feds win, or at the very least, survive, so I feel no rush to write the Entente a blank cheque to avoid losing. I want to see how this plays out.

Canada will have to get involved sooner or later. Despite what the mod itself says, they're a complete paper tiger. Their population is one tenth the size of America's, located almost entirely in three city areas: Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. It has a fraction the industry that America does. It's army is smaller than any side of the civil war. It's navy is bloated with literally no ports big enough to house the whole thing. It doesn't have the money or manpower to maintain anything but a fraction of the former British Navy. The rest is rusting away or been scrapped to afford keeping the rest afloat.

Canadian intervention means a few thousand soldiers backed by RCMP officers rush in to start gunning down protestors, strikers, and militias, then get pushed back when they fight actual red guard units. The CSA is going to be churning out more heavy artillery and war machines than Canada, or the rest of the Entente combined. Australia is even less developed than Canada with less industry, ports, and manpower. France's army is gutted and fighting an unending insurgency across North and West Africa. Algeria is a settler export colony with next to no industry. The Raj is imploding in slow motion and basically a scheme by British aligned princes to wring blood from a stone to get British support to help them conquer India for themselves. South Africa is on the verge of civil war or revolution and likely going to join the Pakt if the Boers win or Internationale if the workers win.

The Entente is a alliance of pathetic powers pretending they still rule the world. Canada barely tolerates the King's militaristic fantasies. It doesn't like the CSA obviously, so it will probably tolerate fighting them, but full scale invasion or even fighting America wouldn't fly. The King needs American approval to put boots on the ground in New England. If we say no, we might cause a crisis in Canadian with the King trying to do so anyway against the wishes of the Prime Minister, since it'd mean declaring war on America.
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If we go by your standards of strength, You could call all the factions of Kaissereich paper tigers, lmao. Also, saying Canada could only muster a few thousand RCMP troopers is just a blatant lie, to be quite frank.
 
01paradox01 said:
If we go by your standards of strength, You could call all the factions of Kaissereich paper tigers, lmao. Also, saying Canada could only muster a few thousand RCMP troopers is just a blatant lie, to be quite frank.
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Look, Canada is not soft. They're an armed force with a decade of prep for what everyone realizes will be the hardest invasion in human history, with experience from the Great War, something is Americans all missed out on. They can be great assets and horrible enemies, and we should treat them as such.
 
01paradox01 said:
If we go by your standards of strength, You could call all the factions of Kaissereich paper tigers, lmao. Also, saying Canada could only muster a few thousand RCMP troopers is just a blatant lie, to be quite frank.
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No, that's completely disingenuous. Other factions have actual industry and manpower to fight other great powers, something Canada lacks, unless you think Canada, Australia, and French Algeria is a peer opponent to Germany. The CSA has a larger population than Canada, and likely more than the rest of the Entente combined, sans the Raj. New York has more people than all of Canada. Ohio has a larger population than all of Australia. This isn't hard to grasp. There are states in America with more people and factories than entire countries. Even if they send fifty thousand soldiers, they'd only have an advantage at the start of the war before the CSA begins churning out more equipment and better armed soldiers.

Earl Warren said:
Look, Canada is not soft. They're an armed force with a decade of prep for what everyone realizes will be the hardest invasion in human history, with experience from the Great War, something is Americans all missed out on. They can be great assets and horrible enemies, and we should treat them as such.
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Realizing an invasion is hard doesn't equal having a military capable of pulling it off. Canada does have veterans of WW1 in the army, but lack the manpower or material to leverage it beyond small numbers. Canada is burdened by British expats running the show, lose of trade to Britain, and a downturn in relations with America is going to hurt an already fragile economy built on exporting to the imperial core. The British expats are unlikely to pursue a program of state directed industrialization necessary to expand Canada's existing industry, especially when mostly Tories fled Britain.

Even if Canada pursued an aggressive policy of militarization and industrialization at the cost of everything else, its forces would be smaller and less well equipped than CSA's army. The majority of America's war industries is in the CSA, so tanks, artillery, guns, and airplanes alongside a bunch of other stuff are in the CSA.

You do not understand the sheer amount of people and industry in the CSA. The AUS has racist militias and German support, but beside that they're running off hope and momentum. Feds have secondary, smaller manufacturing hubs in California and border states that haven't joined the CSA. Canada is a speedbump in this war. America was its last major customer too, so with the civil war breaking out Canada's economy is not going to be doing well.
 
Fission Battery said:
No, that's completely disingenuous. Other factions have actual industry and manpower to fight other great powers, something Canada lacks, unless you think Canada, Australia, and French Algeria is a peer opponent to Germany. The CSA has a larger population than Canada, and likely more than the rest of the Entente combined, sans the Raj. New York has more people than all of Canada. Ohio has a larger population than all of Australia. This isn't hard to grasp. There are states in America with more people and factories than entire countries. Even if they send fifty thousand soldiers, they'd only have an advantage at the start of the war before the CSA begins churning out more equipment and better armed soldiers.



Realizing an invasion is hard doesn't equal having a military capable of pulling it off. Canada does have veterans of WW1 in the army, but lack the manpower or material to leverage it beyond small numbers. Canada is burdened by British expats running the show, lose of trade to Britain, and a downturn in relations with America is going to hurt an already fragile economy built on exporting to the imperial core. The British expats are unlikely to pursue a program of state directed industrialization necessary to expand Canada's existing industry, especially when mostly Tories fled Britain.

Even if Canada pursued an aggressive policy of militarization and industrialization at the cost of everything else, its forces would be smaller and less well equipped than CSA's army. The majority of America's war industries is in the CSA, so tanks, artillery, guns, and airplanes alongside a bunch of other stuff are in the CSA.

You do not understand the sheer amount of people and industry in the CSA. The AUS has racist militias and German support, but beside that they're running off hope and momentum. Feds have secondary, smaller manufacturing hubs in California and border states that haven't joined the CSA. Canada is a speedbump in this war. America was its last major customer too, so with the civil war breaking out Canada's economy is not going to be doing well.
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And in Kaissereich, Canada has the ability to field a large force of hundreds of thousands of soldiers with good equipement. And sure, production capabilities matter, but only if the civil war lasts long enough for them to put them to good use. The Canadians have plenty of war materiel NOW while the CSA is still just a bunch of cobbled up militas with fuck all experience. Sure, they might have guns thanks to their sponsors in the internationale, but they aren't going to be able to go against a modern and well organized army. You're basically overexaggerating issues Canada has. Those same British expats also served on the war, and probably are patriots who'd join the army in a heartbeat. What I'm seeing is You overplaying the CSA's readiness and experience in fighting a conflict, while downplaying the value of that of the Canadians.

edit: and to continue along that line of thought, Canada's industrial capacity isn't small, hell, Canada has been, for the last 18 years, been the center of the Commonwealth. It's become the new metropole, so to speak. 18 years is a lot of time to build up industrially and militarily, because the direction of the country has been, since the exile of the British, aimed at one target: war with the syndicalists, which explains why Canada is capable of everything it's able to do.
 
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notbirdofprey said:
With what money and what resources have they been building up these industries?
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You realize that the commonwealth is still mostly intact, right? I swear you people…

hell, if you want a primary source of all things, in the game itself, Canada and the CSA start about on par with eachover industrially. Like, what the hell do you want from me at that point? Can you pull up charts and data yourself about a fictional alternate realty in a game?
 
The Commonwealth after 1925 is Canada, South Africa, Australia, and some incredibly unstable portion of India. Oh, and another apartheid state in the form of sand France.
 
Guys, I think it's time for a chill on this conversation. It's obviously becoming a derail, creating some hard feelings and not particularly relevant. Ultimately, How poweful Canada is is up to Jee, and that's that, acrimonious argument won't change things or add to the enjoyability of the game.

So yeah, can we please end things right now before the Mods decide to come in.
 
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notbirdofprey said:
The Commonwealth after 1925 is Canada, South Africa, Australia, and some incredibly unstable portion of India. Oh, and another apartheid state in the form of sand France.
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Ok? Your point? Barring the irrelevant comments about apartheid states. That's not small, lmao.

edit: also, you failed to adress my second point. Anyways, i'm done entertaining you.
 
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[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
[X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.
 
[X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.
God forbid we allow the R*yalists to occupy an inch of our land
 
I still think that we have no chance of winning alone because the CSA is backed by the Internationale while the AUS is getting support from the Germans. If the civil war did not have any meddlers at all, we could have safely refused the Canadian offer, but as it is we can't afford to do so, so we have to take the offer or go for the counteroffer. As of now it's 28 votes for no deal, 26 for counteroffer and 15 for the deal, which means that it is unlikely that deal has enough time to catch up to the other 2 options (unless we start having more people who are voting for counteroffer but not deal also vote for deal). For anyone who does want the support of Canada here in some way, I must ask that you vote for both options that involve bringing in the Canadians (aka deal and counteroffer), for we can not beat the CSA and the AUS while they have foreign support, even if we get lucky and manage to weaken them by using propaganda to paint their acceptance of foreign support in a way that causes defection, the aid they will be getting from the foreign support will more than compensate for whatever losses they may incur from defection, if they happen at all, and the Entente is the only faction that would be willing to ally with us so we can't risk alienating them. We won't make it far in the world if we have no allies we can depend on.
 
[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.


[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
Doesn't the newer version of KR have the UoB start a civil war in anticipation or alongside the first Canadian landings?
 
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