The Second Reconstruction-A Post-Civil War Kaiserreich USA Quest

Also a point on the RN: We shouldn't just assume it's the Reds who've been building ships. Sure, Canada on their own can't make a huge amount of vessels, but she does have her colonial empire to draw upon. South Africa, Australia, Parts of India could all provide the nessicarry material, at a price sure but one Canada would be willing to pay. Even if their not going to reclaim their homeland anytime soon, it would be imperative to have a military force ready to deter the Syndies from attacking them.

The Australasians are actually hosting a pretty massive part of the British navy. Like, we're going to be crushing the Germans, Japanese and Internationale under our boot. Their attacks on our sovereignty must not go unpunished, So getting the British navy on side makes it all the easier. Picking the 'America Stands alone' option is just pride speaking, to be frank. There is no reason not to get as much help as possible from the Entente.
 
The Australasians are actually hosting a pretty massive part of the British navy. Like, we're going to be crushing the Germans, Japanese and Internationale under our boot. Their attacks on our sovereignty must not go unpunished, So getting the British navy on side makes it all the easier. Picking the 'America Stands alone' option is just pride speaking, to be frank. There is no reason not to get as much help as possible from the Entente.
Patience my freind, patience. Vengance against the Japanese for their oppurtunism will come, but for now we have Traitors to crush. It may take time, a long time, but Japan will face music for her vulture behavior.

Edit: Overall, I think the Civil War has taught America a valuable foreign policy lesson: Isolationism won't work. Germany pushed us into this situation with her vindictive trade war and the Reds aided the cause of Revolution. America must be both muscular and have a decided voice that will show Foreign powers this sort of behavior does not pay!
 
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Hmm.

My base assumption is that the Internationale isn't willing to engage in open war. They'll send "volunteers" and supplies, but not battleships. If this is wrong, then things will get interesting.

However, if my assumption is correct, then an aging WWI cruiser can manage a blockade just fine. It's not like the South or the Syndicalists have anything larger than a destroyer.

I feel that we're operating from very different first premises. You appear to believe that the Internationale and/or the Germans could decide to make a major effort on this continent, while I believe that they won't go far beyond Spanish Civil War levels of support. "Volunteers" and equipment, yes, but not warships or armies. I think that they will keep most of their forces at home, watching the neighbors.

I don't want to deny it; Option #3 is a gamble. Option #2 offers many of the benefits of Option #3, and if the Syndicalists are kind enough to attack the Canadians in New England then we could get most of the benefits without the price. However, if they don't mess up, then we can't count on the same level of Canadian support. Which is only reasonable; you get out what you put in, and we aren't doing much for Canada if we pick Option #2.

I don't believe that this is likely to ignite a war, but if the Internationale isn't willing to escort convoys into New York, then for all intents and purposes our own navy alone is adequate to stop them. If they are willing to escort convoys with greater force than that I would still prefer that the USN alone face them down because adding Canada into the mix as an outright combatant on our side via the Option #3 deal would massively increase the impetus for the Internationale to support the CSA such that any additional naval assistance the Canadians could offer would be roughly equivalent to additional naval commitments from the Internationale.

Also a point on the RN: We shouldn't just assume it's the Reds who've been building ships. Sure, Canada on their own can't make a huge amount of vessels, but she does have her colonial empire to draw upon. South Africa, Australia, Parts of India could all provide the nessicarry material, at a price sure but one Canada would be willing to pay. Even if their not going to reclaim their homeland anytime soon, it would be imperative to have a military force ready to deter the Syndies from attacking them.

You are significantly underestimating how expensive navies are. Even presuming perfect coordination and presuming the entire population of South Africa is equally economically productive and that there isn't a massive black underclass, that is collectively maybe 30 million people. India is not going to significantly contribute, they're probably having enough trouble as it is holding down the fort.

For approximate reference, Spain had a population of about 26 million people in 1940, and while they probably produced significantly taxes than Canada and Australasia, Spain nevertheless could maintain a navy only of about 3 extremely obsolete first generation dreadnought battleships, 2 modern Heavy Cruisers, 3 modern Light Cruisers, 2 older Light Cruisers, and about 15 modernish destroyers.

The Australasians are actually hosting a pretty massive part of the British navy. Like, we're going to be crushing the Germans, Japanese and Internationale under our boot. Their attacks on our sovereignty must not go unpunished, So getting the British navy on side makes it all the easier. Picking the 'America Stands alone' option is just pride speaking, to be frank. There is no reason not to get as much help as possible from the Entente.

A large fraction of those ships are approaching obsolescence and as previously discussed the Entente simply does not have the economic capability or even manpower to maintain these ships to a high standard, let alone meaningfully expand them.
 
Fuck American pride. We have a war to win, and Germans, syndicalists and Japanese to crush.
It ain't our war. If we join up with the Entente, we're fighting to bring back the old world order that brought about the First Weltkrieg. The syndicalist nations of Britain and France are democratic socialist societies that are a far cry from the despotism of the USSR, and the exiles want to tear that away for the sake of their old governments. The Germans and Japanese suck, but we can easily fight against them without humoring Edward's fantasies.

Also, the fact that King is in charge doesn't exactly mean Edward respects Canadian democracy in any way, it just means that he'll have to find other ways to get Canada to follow his interests.
 
It ain't our war. If we join up with the Entente, we're fighting to bring back the old world order that brought about the First Weltkrieg. The syndicalist nations of Britain and France are democratic socialist societies that are a far cry from the despotism of the USSR, and the exiles want to tear that away for the sake of their old governments. The Germans and Japanese suck, but we can easily fight against them without humoring Edward's fantasies.
in the old international order, you at least didn't have to suffer the presence of nations who have basically decided that only Socialist states should be allowed the decent rights of nations, who feel it is fine to send thousands of soldiers to overthrow democratically elected governments because well, they didn't choose Socialism. This may not of started as our war, but the reds in Paris and London have decided to make it ours. It's not our fault they so badly want to give American boys an all expenses payed free tour of London and Paris.
 
The syndicalist nations of Britain and France are democratic socialist societies that are a far cry from the despotism of the USSR
Their assholes actively interfering in our affairs, their AT BEST just the Old Government with red paint.
A large fraction of those ships are approaching obsolescence and as previously discussed the Entente simply does not have the economic capability or even manpower to maintain these ships to a high standard, let alone meaningfully expand them.
Doesn't matter, the UoB and CoF are not invading the US, The Logistics don't exist, even in a civil war, it would still go about as well as Operation Sealion
Even a Fully ready US needed the aid of the British Isles to launch D-Day.
So it doesn't matter if they have old ships. Its pretty much irrelevant for this Civil war.
 
I don't believe that this is likely to ignite a war, but if the Internationale isn't willing to escort convoys into New York, then for all intents and purposes our own navy alone is adequate to stop them. If they are willing to escort convoys with greater force than that I would still prefer that the USN alone face them down because adding Canada into the mix as an outright combatant on our side via the Option #3 deal would massively increase the impetus for the Internationale to support the CSA such that any additional naval assistance the Canadians could offer would be roughly equivalent to additional naval commitments from the Internationale.



You are significantly underestimating how expensive navies are. Even presuming perfect coordination and presuming the entire population of South Africa is equally economically productive and that there isn't a massive black underclass, that is collectively maybe 30 million people. India is not going to significantly contribute, they're probably having enough trouble as it is holding down the fort.

For approximate reference, Spain had a population of about 26 million people in 1940, and while they probably produced significantly taxes than Canada and Australasia, Spain nevertheless could maintain a navy only of about 3 extremely obsolete first generation dreadnought battleships, 2 modern Heavy Cruisers, 3 modern Light Cruisers, 2 older Light Cruisers, and about 15 modernish destroyers.



A large fraction of those ships are approaching obsolescence and as previously discussed the Entente simply does not have the economic capability or even manpower to maintain these ships to a high standard, let alone meaningfully expand them.

No, they probably won't actually personally intervene if Canada does. They still have Germany and her Allies breathing down their neck, Volunteers are an easy thing to send, but a declaration of war by having the French or british ships shoot at American ships is clearly off the table.
 
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Their assholes actively interfering in our affairs, their AT BEST just the Old Government with red paint.

Doesn't matter, the UoB and CoF are not invading the US, The Logistics don't exist, even in a civil war, it would still go about as well as Operation Sealion
Even a Fully ready US needed the aid of the British Isles to launch D-Day.
So it doesn't matter if they have old ships. Its pretty much irrelevant for this Civil war.
I have no idea what you're arguing against, I agree the Entente Navies are essentially a wash if they become actively involved on our side.
Didn't Reed's revolt start after striking workers were gunned down despite us promising that we wouldn't allow that?
They were ordered not to, we cannot control every actor on the ground, and we have cooperated with the SPA to the greatest extent possible in the leadup to the crisis, passing an anti-lynching bill, a stronger NLRA, we have done what we could.

No, they probably won't actually personally intervene if Canada does. They still have Germany and her Allies breathing down their neck, Volunteers are an easy thing to send, but a declaration of war by having the French or british ships shoot at American ships is clearly off the table.
The line is often much much blurrier than that, I don't think war will occur but there is a difference between a 1,000 strong Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and an 80,000 strong Corpo Truppe Volontarie
 
The line is often much much blurrier than that, I don't think war will occur but there is a difference between a 1,000 strong Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and an 80,000 strong Corpo Truppe Volontarie
Their not getting 80 thousand "volunteers" into the United States, and they would stupid to do so.
Seriously the Spanish Civil War which was LITERALLY right next door for all these powers only had 35k TOTAL amongst ALL the foreign powers involved.
Socialists do not have teleportation.
 
It ain't our war. If we join up with the Entente, we're fighting to bring back the old world order that brought about the First Weltkrieg. The syndicalist nations of Britain and France are democratic socialist societies that are a far cry from the despotism of the USSR, and the exiles want to tear that away for the sake of their old governments. The Germans and Japanese suck, but we can easily fight against them without humoring Edward's fantasies.

Also, the fact that King is in charge doesn't exactly mean Edward respects Canadian democracy in any way, it just means that he'll have to find other ways to get Canada to follow his interests.

I don't know much about the merits of British and French syndicalism.

I do know that they're actively supporting our enemies in the civil war. If they didn't want us to join Team Entente, they could have...not done that. Whatever they might believe about British or French democracy, it's pretty clear that they don't believe in American democracy.

King Edward does not have magic mind control powers. He can't force millions of Canadians to do what he wants.

They're already going to be sending volunteers in the tens of thousands. they escalated first, so I see no problem in doing the same.

We don't know how many volunteers they're going to be sending.
 
We don't know how many volunteers they're going to be sending.
That said, tens of thousands is a safe bet, at least on the Syndie side. America is a big investment and they don't have pesky neutrality laws or international communities to worry about, winning here is well worth, say 50 k soldiers, hell a lot more but they can't pull off too many. Germany on the other Hand is just here on the Kaisers whims and to test out her sweet new tanks. They don't have any particular need to win this conflict, especially when they have a war in Asia to win, an Africa to control, and Syndies and Savinkov to face off against in Europe.
 
That said, tens of thousands is a safe bet, at least on the Syndie side. America is a big investment and they don't have pesky neutrality laws or international communities to worry about, winning here is well worth, say 50 k soldiers, hell a lot more but they can't pull off too many. Germany on the other Hand is just here on the Kaisers whims and to test out her sweet new tanks. They don't have any particular need to win this conflict, especially when they have a war in Asia to win, an Africa to control, and Syndies and Savinkov to face off against in Europe.
Again, how on earth are they going to get tens of thousands of people across the ocean effectively? Its one thing if they warred the US, then at least they can mobilize transport and resources, logistics be damned but here... they are just teleporting over? Its not exactly an easy Plane ride over to the US, your going by naval vessel and even then ONLY possible that way if we decide to be stupid and decline ANY aid whatsoever and allow our enemies to have ALL the aid.
 
Their not getting 80 thousand "volunteers" into the United States, and they would stupid to do so.
Seriously the Spanish Civil War which was LITERALLY right next door for all these powers only had 35k TOTAL amongst ALL the foreign powers involved.
Socialists do not have teleportation.
This is factually false, there were about 35,000 volunteers to the Spanish Republicans, the Italians made the single largest commitment at about 75,000 army soldiers for the Nationalists, not including the Air Force or Navy, along with about 10,000 Portuguese, and 15,000 Germans. America is important enough that the Internationale has been extensively supporting the SPA for quite some time now and have intervened immediately. I do not think it so absurd that they would commit comparable numbers of soldiers.
 
This is factually false, there were about 35,000 volunteers to the Spanish Republicans, the Italians made the single largest commitment at about 75,000 army soldiers for the Nationalists, not including the Air Force or Navy, along with about 10,000 Portuguese, and 15,000 Germans. America is important enough that the Internationale has been extensively supporting the SPA for quite some time now and have intervened immediately. I do not think it so absurd that they would commit comparable numbers of soldiers.
Every source i look at says at MOST 50k total, can i get a source on 75k from Italy alone, thanks?


Edit: Found a wiki that says all the axis sent a total of 76k to Allies 50k,

So even if this was the case, the French are not going to able to send 80 thousand people to the US.
 
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This is factually false, there were about 35,000 volunteers to the Spanish Republicans, the Italians made the single largest commitment at about 75,000 army soldiers for the Nationalists, not including the Air Force or Navy, along with about 10,000 Portuguese, and 15,000 Germans. America is important enough that the Internationale has been extensively supporting the SPA for quite some time now and have intervened immediately. I do not think it so absurd that they would commit comparable numbers of soldiers.

Fact of the matter is that they'll send that many anyways if they could, Entente or no Entente. The only matter to take into consideration is if we want to invade Britain, but honestly, after what the internationale has done? The damn totalists are getting what's coming for them.
 
[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
1. [X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

2. [X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
To be safe I'd cut out the numbers, not entirely sure if the voting machine will register with them in.
 
Okay so i was wrong about the number, but what I am still not wrong about is the Logistics, the Italians were able to send 50k to SPAIN which is practically next door. How does anyone expect 80k men from France alone to get to the US? Only Canada could do that easily and thats because they literally share the world's largest border with the US.
 
Okay so i was wrong about the number, but what I am still not wrong about is the Logistics, the Italians were able to send 50k to SPAIN which is practically next door. How does anyone expect 80k men from France alone to get to the US? Only Canada could do that easily and thats because they literally share the world's largest border with the US.
They do have a fleet and ships. It would be difficult, no doubt, and more difficult still if we say transferred a fleet from the pacific to harrass them, but they could do it, If motivated.
 
I don't like giving a check like this but we don't have a lot of choices considering that some of our best soldiers have sided with the rebels and we have both the Communists and the German Empire deciding that yes actually they really want in on the second American Civil War in Ernest. Canada for all our issues with it and the fact we would have to agree to help putting a King I don't care about back on his throne has been a pretty good friend and ally sense the 1890's both in the OTL and this timeline. Plus this tickles my fancy for the damm Windsor family only sitting on their Throne because American's put them there and them knowing it. I mean hell this timeline if we can get a clean win and put the International and the Germans in their place has the added benefits of a Russia and China that could actually be our friends if we can help them out.

[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.
 
They do have a fleet and ships. It would be difficult, no doubt, and more difficult still if we say transferred a fleet from the pacific to harrass them, but they could do it, If motivated.
Using their fleet like that would literally cause a war, The US alone wouldn't be able to stop it, due to the civil war, but Canada with its gigantic if outdated navy would have a massive logistical advantage.
Plus theres no way France or the UoB navy can even handle doing this, they are relatively new Navies but small, they would also have been built for defense against the Entente and Germany not for Cross Ocean Naval Offenses.
 
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