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The Second Reconstruction-A Post-Civil War Kaiserreich USA Quest

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Ghostdevil said:
There is literally no benefit I can think of that trumps getting Canada involved, they would help end the war sooner, reconstruction faster, gives us a large sphere of influence as the largest economy, we can alter pretty much any deal due to our strength once it's not under civil war. The drawbacks are basically non existent compared to the other options which have massive obvious and immediate ones.
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Directly involving Canada in the war opens the prospect of escalation that the Canadians simply are not able to match even as a fully mobilized nation as opposed to German Condor Legions or International Brigades. It is the nature of the border that post-war the Canadian and American economies will be utterly intertwined with regardless of whether or not we explicitly join the Entente or not, this is why the Smoot-Hawley Tariff was so poorly received in Canada in the first place. Australasia is also likely to gravitate towards the United States in the postwar much as it did IRL because of the threat posed by Japan and we are the only viable alternative in that regard. Not much else of the Entente is really worth the blood and sweat. The Caribbean Islands will likely follow wherever Canada goes bar revolution, the Entente would not give us a meaningful foot in the door to India regardless, and South Africa and National France are not partners worth having.
 
[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

People do realise the Economic superpower USA will become right? Syndie France and Britain will have 0 chance of stopping us when they're facing off against the Reichspakt this eliminates two foreign powers that actively work to sabotage us internally and externally and replace them with two friendly countries deep in debt and needing money to pay for reconstruction, this is how America became the world superpower OTL.
Also for those worrying about how this will make the US look, don't, because the US already has got 0 reputation left as we just split in three and other countries are taking our stuff, joining the Entente is useful as we have overseas muscle to back us up and watch our stuff while we fight the syndies and racists.
 
[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

A Middle approach is kinda acceptable i suppose. Not selling ourselves too much but a regime change in Canada after the war is still necessary i suspect.
 
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I am thinking of this as a person who has a vested interest in after the civil war that we should not involve ourselves in an even bigger war when we should instead spend our time and effort rebuilding shelled cities. The American People will be tired of war and probably not eagerly accept us going on a global crusade in the name of the Entente
 
Helher said:
I am thinking of this as a person who has a vested interest in after the civil war that we should not involve ourselves in an even bigger war when we should instead spend our time and effort rebuilding shelled cities. The American People will be tired of war and probably not eagerly accept us going on a global crusade in the name of the Entente
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The last option means we promise but are not forced to aid the restoration, they will only go on our mark anyways since they Need the US to have a chance of making it
 
Helher said:
I am thinking of this as a person who has a vested interest in after the civil war that we should not involve ourselves in an even bigger war when we should instead spend our time and effort rebuilding shelled cities. The American People will be tired of war and probably not eagerly accept us going on a global crusade in the name of the Entente
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The thing is, those decisions must be ours to make after we win the Civil War, which above all is our number one goal as a war time government. We won't get to make decisions for American foregin policy if we end up losing.
 
Earl Warren said:
The thing is, those decisions must be ours to make after we win the Civil War, which above all is our number one goal as a war time government. We won't get to make decisions for American foregin policy if we end up losing.
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Yeah but to note the narrative is already a retrospective looking back from many years in the future calling MacArthur the Hero of the Republic or something like that so I'm not so worried about us winning.
 
Cbman said:
[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

People do realise the Economic superpower USA will become right? Syndie France and Britain will have 0 chance of stopping us when they're facing off against the Reichspakt this eliminates two foreign powers that actively work to sabotage us internally and externally and replace them with two friendly countries deep in debt and needing money to pay for reconstruction, this is how America became the world superpower OTL.
Also for those worrying about how this will make the US look, don't, because the US already has got 0 reputation left as we just split in three and other countries are taking our stuff, joining the Entente is useful as we have overseas muscle to back us up and watch our stuff while we fight the syndies and racists.
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Countries tend to be less economic superpowery after a gigantic civil war. and while I'm not saying that this is an unfeasible option, we have very little reason to make that decision now as opposed to later when we still don't really know how the Civil War is going to shape up when there's hardly much penalty for deciding to do so later as opposed to now. I think outright Canadian intervention as opposed to their offered deal brings too much risk of an escalatory cycle vis a vis the Internationale and the Germans that the Canadians are simply not able to match.

Ghostdevil said:
The last option means we promise but are not forced to aid the restoration, they will only go on our mark anyways since they Need the US to have a chance of making it
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We shouldn't disregard the possibility that if we leave the Entente completely out to dry in that fashion that they will simply choose to reconcile with the Reichspakt in which case all of Europe would fall under the Kaiser's banner which I certainly think would be a very unfavorable outcome.
 
[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
Theaxofwar said:
Yeah but to note the narrative is already a retrospective looking back from many years in the future calling MacArthur the Hero of the Republic or something like that so I'm not so worried about us winning.
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Yes, but the people of the time, making these decisions don't know that, and wouldn't operate under the assumption that victory is inevitable. Plus, Canadian assistance could bring the war to an end more quickly and thus prevent more loss of life and material than nessicarry.
 
I would ask the sovereignty voters to consider the current situation.

We are in the middle of a civil war, and civil war is not a Happy Time. Even if the syndicalists are interested in trying to fight a somewhat less awful war, you know that the Southerners are going to start purging the Negro-Bolshevik menace.

Every day that the civil war continues is another opportunity for more war crimes. We want to end the war now, and that means accepting help. Any ingrained dislike of foreigners/imperialists/the damned British means absolutely nothing compared to reducing the number of mass graves.
 
I have enabled ranked voting, considering the rigorous debates, and I don't want anyone voting for the Canadian offer as is to feel like they are potentially throwing their vote away in case there isn't a movement towards that vote. To be safe, if you want to rank your votes I recommend reposting your ballot over editing.
 
dptullos said:
I would ask the sovereignty voters to consider the current situation.

We are in the middle of a civil war, and civil war is not a Happy Time. Even if the syndicalists are interested in trying to fight a somewhat less awful war, you know that the Southerners are going to start purging the Negro-Bolshevik menace.

Every day that the civil war continues is another opportunity for more war crimes. We want to end the war now, and that means accepting help. Any ingrained dislike of foreigners/imperialists/the damned British means absolutely nothing compared to reducing the number of mass graves.
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Also, quicker civil war means less of a desire on our part to fill said graves. Right now, most of our soldiers and Politicans haven't lost people to Red Terror or Southern Savagery. Give it two to three years, and yes they will lose people to that and they will demand retaliation. We will have to give some. Best case scenario and we get Nuremberg, which is a relatively lawful trial with maybe some Mac tampering to convict some people. The scenarios after that get steadily more unpleasant
 
[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

Approval voting for every option that isn't "No we don't need foreign help". Both the Southerners and the CSA are accepting foreign aid, and I'd like to win the civil war as quickly as possible.
 
Andre Massena said:
[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

We can really use the help right now, but I think the counteroffer is pushing our luck too much, makes us look too weak, and might prove a burden in the future.
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Editing this too:

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

For now I think it's better to just take the offer instead of trying to push it too far, since that always seems to go badly in this quest.
 
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[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
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[X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

[X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.
 
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As the intellectual leader of Olson-Newworldist Thought, I call upon my followers to approval vote for the middle option. I could write an essay on why this is the better course of action, but @Sturmi already covered basically everything.

Only thing I would add is that the Entente is going to do something to our country either way, so much better to do it on amicable terms than as a subordinate or as an enemy.

But have no fear. Should the muscular nationalism line prevail, we will kick out all foreign powers and go on to liberate the world. Rawr. 💪
 
1. [X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.

2. [X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

I can accept the middle option, but not the counter offer
 
1. [X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.

2. [X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

I am in agreement.
 
The only reason I don't consider option one as sabotage of the quest or suicide is because of qm fiating us winning, the second option is neutral while the third is the one that makes the most sense in any direction you look at it.
 
1. [X] The Cabinet had a counter offer, formally asking that Canada join the Civil War on their side, launching military operations against the CSA, and in return when the time came to retake the Isles, the US would play an active role, essentially joining the Entente.

2. [X] Recognizing that the Federals needed serious assistance, the Cabinet had accepted the offer and the agreement would be signed by Olson and Hull.

3. [X] The US would not allow its sovereignty to be trampled on nor be a beggar power, it would win the war and defend its overseas territories on its own.
 
I don't think that's how you approval vote?

You have to check the options you want; choosing all three is the same as not voting at all.

Sturmi said:
Directly involving Canada in the war opens the prospect of escalation that the Canadians simply are not able to match even as a fully mobilized nation as opposed to German Condor Legions or International Brigades. It is the nature of the border that post-war the Canadian and American economies will be utterly intertwined with regardless of whether or not we explicitly join the Entente or not, this is why the Smoot-Hawley Tariff was so poorly received in Canada in the first place. Australasia is also likely to gravitate towards the United States in the postwar much as it did IRL because of the threat posed by Japan and we are the only viable alternative in that regard. Not much else of the Entente is really worth the blood and sweat. The Caribbean Islands will likely follow wherever Canada goes bar revolution, the Entente would not give us a meaningful foot in the door to India regardless, and South Africa and National France are not partners worth having.
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The Germans and the Internationale are already intervening in the civil war. They wanted us to lose before we accepted any foreign help.

We may get the Condor Legions or International Brigades anyway, as the Germans and the International escalate in response to each other. Our best option is to call the Canadians in, use their full strength to tie down the CSA, and free up our own troops. Either to crush the CSA in a decisive offensive that closes one front, or to divert our attention to the South. I'm not sure which option would be best.
 
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dptullos said:
I don't think that's how you approval vote?

You have to check the options you want; choosing all three is the same as not voting at all.
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I thought you had to check off all three in Rank Choice?

dptullos said:
The Germans and the Internationale are already intervening in the civil war. They wanted us to lose before we accepted any foreign help.
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Will say, I don't get why Germany has intervened so forcefully on the side of Long. There's nothing that particularly lines up idealogically, if anything mild distaste on the part of Berlin for a Populist rabble rouser. Were they promised a completely free hand in South America? That make some sense, I suppose. Also "The Feds have lost already, better to get someone forceful against the Reds?"
 
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