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Small Arms Commission Quest

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Let's try that again, shall we?
Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 9:14 AM, finished with 54 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] 14.5x114mm
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] Plan Heavyweight
    -[X] 25×152mm
    --[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    --[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    --[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    -[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    [x] plan smoke rings
    -[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    --[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    --[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    --[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    -[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    -[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 9:19 AM, finished with 55 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    -[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    -[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    -[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    -[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    -[X] 225 gr bullet
    -[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] 25×152mm
    -[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    -[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    -[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
    -[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    [x] plan smoke rings
    -[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    --[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    --[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    --[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    -[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    -[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
Click to expand...
 
@7734 still needs to get with the program and change his votes so the block tally behaves, but otherwise everything works. That tally did need some vote management though.
 
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So 14.5 and 20mm look like they're in. Nothing else has broken out yet. Do we go big or small?
 
I think the 25mm will end up having a lot of utility as a crew served weapon and as an autocannon round. Unless designs surprise us we'll probably want a lower caliber man-portable weapon but a single-shot or magazine fed 25mm could be a good higher-velocity crew served alternative to something like the tiny 37mm potato guns mentioned earlier.
 
The 37mm might be a good choice as it allows a large enough HE shell to do damage to entrenched infantry even when it's not shooting at enemy vehicles.
 
True but the fact that modern autocannons on IFVs are usually closer to 25mm than 37mm makes me believe that it has enough volume for explosive filler. 37mm was used a lot in this era because it was effectively the minimum size for explosive projectiles under the St.Petersburg Declaration which I believe has no mentioned analog in this setting. The 25mm will be asking a lot in the weight department already and the long barrel needed to push a 37mm to the velocity you want could add an extra man or two to the crew requirement.
 
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

And as much as I love the derpy 37, I'm gonna throw my support behind the 25 as well.

[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
 
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)

Placing a proper vote to keep things simple for the tally.
 
Alright, since several of these terrify me beyond all belief, I'm just gonna do a quick run through on plauseability.

-[]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
--[] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
--[] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
--[] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is fine. @Artificial Girl good job.


[ ] 9x103mm Cartridge
-[ ] 35g bullet
-[ ] 1200 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Linked belt for MG usage

[ ] 13x111mm Cartridge
-[ ] 55g bullet
-[ ] 900 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

These are not fine. Minus the fact that you're talking muzzle velocities in line with a tank cannon, modern .50 BMG ammunition fired out of a modern 88 caliber barrel normally gets 860-920 m/s. Making the bullet lighter won't help your acceleration, it'll actively hurt it since a 35g 9mm spitzer bullet will be so long as to experiance significant longitudnal flex and shock, meaning it will destabalize in flight and have a coin flip odds of hitting a barn from a hundred meters- see the infamous 17pdr HVAP and Sabot round expiriments for proof. The 13mm round is much more sane comparitively, although still shit because your bullet will also be longer than this post to yell at you fuckers who don't understand basic dimensional analysis and therefore have the same problem as the other overly long bullet.

[ ] Heavyweight
-[ ] 25×152mm
-[ ] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[ ] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[ ] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This one is... meh. I really hate the concept of a 25mm AT gun because at that point you need a fucking carriage, but as a bullet it passes muster. 7/10, good show, passing grade.

[ ] 12.5x102mm Adler
-[ ] 50g bullet
-[ ] 1100 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[ ] AP or API
Click to expand...
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What the fuck. This bullet is heavy as fuck, faster than a falling Communist, longer than a bad penis metaphor, and will tumble like a Smartcar in a crash test.

[ ] 23x142mm Falke
-[ ] 140g bullet
-[ ] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[ ] AP or API
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh hey, something resembling sanaty-
>140g bullet
-I stand coreccted. Aside with my issues with the caliber, this thing is still absurdly fast for the weight of shot it uses, and the weight of shot is pushing the envelop for apropriate length. Not the worst here... but still shit.

[ ] 37x136mm Roc
-[ ] 650g bullet
-[ ] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action
-[ ] AP, HE, or APHE
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...



[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
--[X] 225 gr bullet
--[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
--[X] Rimless cartridge
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

how the fuck are we getting these muzzle velocity numbers jesus christ where's my reaction images folder...




SUMMARY: we're fucked.
 
.... so I was thinking of finding some RL bullets from WW1 era and offering those.... since I know nothing of bullet design.
 
Do you have any good references to look at for this, @7734? More education is always good.

I was trying to base off cartridges from existing anti tank rifles from Wikipedia surfing, so I won't claim my entries were written up with expert knowledge.
 
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
 
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
 
...Why are we having an artillery calibre weapon in a Small Arms thing? 25mm isn't a bad round, but by that point we're talking less "three guys and an AT rifle" and more "jesus fuck it's artillery". For reference, the only historical 25mm AT gun I can find was this guy, and it weighed 480 kg. If we're really going to go there, why not go all out and have a carriaged 37mm AT gun? It's not like the 25mm one is going anywhere in any short amount of time.

@7734 the 7.92 round is actually based off something that actually existed, so yeah, reality's where I'm getting those velocity numbers.
Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 5:05 PM, finished with 68 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] 14.5x114mm
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] At least 600 m/s
    --[X] Designed for use out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] 25×152mm
    -[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    -[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    -[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
    -[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    -[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    -[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    -[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    [X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    [X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 6:04 PM, finished with 77 posts and 11 votes.
  • [X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    -[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    -[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    -[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    -[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] 25×152mm
    -[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    -[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    -[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
    -[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    -[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    -[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    -[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    [X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    [X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    -[X] 225 gr bullet
    -[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X] 13x111mm Cartridge
    -[X] 55g bullet
    -[X] 900 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    [X] 88x571mmR Jesus Fucking Christ What The Hell Were We Thinking
    --[X] 1000 m/s
    --[X] 10.4 kg projectile
    --[X] Designed for use in "heavy man-portable field infantry anti-tank weapons system"
    [X] 7.62x39 Mary Sue
    --[X] 139 gr bullet
    --[X] 3.00×10⁸ m/s muzzle velocity.
Click to expand...
 
DB_Explorer said:
Creep of the bureaucracy.

Soon we will be in charge of ALL infantry & Man-portable weapons!
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Why not just go all out and get a 50mm thing?

[] 50×419 mmR Big Fucking Round
--[] 2,740 ft/s
--[] 4 lbs. 9 oz projectile
--[] Designed for use in bigass "manportable" AT "rifle"

Or even better:
[] 88x571mmR Jesus Fucking Christ What The Hell Were We Thinking
--[] 1000 m/s
--[] 10.4 kg projectile
--[] Designed for use in "heavy man-portable field infantry anti-tank weapons system"
 
Last edited:
Seriously though, part of the purpose of this thing was so that the infantry doesn't need a field gun or rifle grenades to kill tonks. Designing another field gun sized object kinda defeats the purpose.
 
@7734 I want to vote for one of your cartridges, but while the rest are kind of optimistic in terms of velocity, yours are straight up garbage. So I'm grabbing the three I have the least issue between "hopeless optimism" and "that's half the velocity this should be doing".

[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications


[X] 13x111mm Cartridge
-[X] 55g bullet
-[X] 900 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action
 
It's not over 'till the fat lady sings.
[] 356mm Bag-Loading, Manportable, Super-Heavy Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons System
--[] 680 kg projectile
--[] 820 m/s

[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
--[X] 225 gr bullet
--[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
--[X] Rimless cartridge

[X] 88x571mmR Jesus Fucking Christ What The Hell Were We Thinking
--[X] 1000 m/s
--[X] 10.4 kg projectile
--[X] Designed for use in "heavy man-portable field infantry anti-tank weapons system"

[X] 7.62x39 Mary Sue
--[X] 139 gr bullet
--[X] 3.00×10⁸ m/s muzzle velocity.
 
Last edited:
Michael Lewis said:
...Why are we having an artillery calibre weapon in a Small Arms thing? 25mm isn't a bad round, but by that point we're talking less "three guys and an AT rifle" and more "jesus fuck it's artillery". For reference, the only historical 25mm AT gun I can find was this guy, and it weighed 480 kg. If we're really going to go there, why not go all out and have a carriaged 37mm AT gun? It's not like the 25mm one is going anywhere in any short amount of time.
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And there's a 37mm which is this big and weighed 108kg when deployed.



Our 25mm doesn't have to be as big as the Hotchkiss. It won't be the 37mm potato cannon above either seeing as it needs some velocity but it'll be more like it or a Super Lahti L-39 than the Hotchkiss.
 
Michael Lewis said:
What type of range does that thing even get? A 37mm in a barrel that short seems...a bit extreme.
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Wiki says it had an effective range of about 1,500 meters, with a maximum firing range of 2,400m. Fired a 37x94R mm shell at 367 m/s. Which means just over 4 seconds to travel to it's maximum effective range and about 6.5 seconds to get to maximum firing range (assuming lack of air friction, etc, this is back of an envelope calc).

Projectiles weighed just over half a kilo a piece and had a bursting charge of 30g in the HE version. Armor penetration on it and similar guns was about 23-25mm, at best (with AP ammo).

For comparison, the OTL French 25mm ATG fired a smaller shell at about 918 m/s, which could reach it's max effective range of about 1km in just over one second.
 
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