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Small Arms Commission Quest

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That's what I figured, but I was concerned about it being slightly too advanced for our present technology.
 
Chronologist said:
Or we could try to imitate the French and get a tiny 37mm cannon.
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I love those tiny 37's. If my 25mm goes through I hope what ends up getting designed is something between those and a bolt action version of an L-39 Lahti. Bolt action might be too weak for it though so maybe 37mm style sliding block or riff off of Kapan's pseudo interrupted screw.
 
Himmelhand said:
That's what I figured, but I was concerned about it being slightly too advanced for our present technology.
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The semi-auto version (PTRS), probably. The bolt action is probably doable.

radiorobot said:
I love those tiny 37's. If my 25mm goes through I hope what ends up getting designed is something between those and a bolt action version of an L-39 Lahti. Bolt action might be too weak for it though so maybe 37mm style sliding block or riff off of Kapan's pseudo interrupted screw.
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All good options.
 
After further consideration, refined options I'm pondering. I kinda want the 9mm for MG usage, but it's probably redundant and not suited to this competition.

[ ] 9x103mm Schwalbe
-[ ] 35g bullet
-[ ] 1500 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Linked belt for MG usage
-[ ] AP or API

[ ] 12.5x102mm Adler
-[ ] 50g bullet
-[ ] 1100 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[ ] AP or API

[ ] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[ ] 60g bullet
-[ ] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[ ] AP or API

[ ] 23x142mm Falke
-[ ] 140g bullet
-[ ] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[ ] AP or API

[ ] 37x136mm Roc
-[ ] 650g bullet
-[ ] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action
-[ ] AP, HE, or APHE
 
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Himmelhand said:
[ ] 37x136mm Roc
-[ ] 650g bullet
-[ ] 1200 m/s muzzle velocity
-[ ] Designed for use in bolt action
-[ ] AP, HE, or APHE
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Do current propellent's let us hit this kind of velocity? I think you're heavily overestimating our current ability. I was looking at some 20mm's of WW1 to get a ballpark for my 25mm and it seemed that none of them could even push past around 850 m/s. Pom-Pom's were 37mm and they only do 550 m/s, French semi-auto Puteaux's could only do 600 m/s, and Russia's 37mm trench gun is even worse at only 440 m/s. Even amongst WW2 era 37mm's from the US, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Germany, and Japan I don't see any velocities above 890 m/s with 760 m/s or so being more common.
 
radiorobot said:
Do current propellent's let us hit this kind of velocity? I think you're heavily overestimating our current ability. I was looking at some 20mm's of WW1 to get a ballpark for my 25mm and it seemed that none of them could even push past around 850 m/s. Pom-Pom's were 37mm and they only do 550 m/s, French semi-auto Puteaux's could only do 600 m/s, and Russia's 37mm trench gun is even worse at only 440 m/s. Even amongst WW2 era 37mm's from the US, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Germany, and Japan I don't see any velocities above 890 m/s with 760 m/s or so being more common.
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You're right! Got my wires crossed and put ft/s numbers where m/s should be. Editing.
 
Ah, that makes a lot more sense though I have to note now looking it over again that a 650g projectile seems like quite a lot for even a 37×136 when a 37×94 shell weighs 450g in total.
 
Ok here's my actual vote. I think this is how you want us to do it? If not I'll fix it up tomorrow in the morning.

[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
 
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wait did you make THREE plans?

Or are we trying to make three bullets to test?
 
DB_Explorer said:
Or are we trying to make three bullets to test?
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Yes we are.

@N.Now we are testing these rounds before adopting them, right?

[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
--[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
--[X] At least 600 m/s
--[X] Designed for use out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle.
--[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

[X] 14.5x114mm
--[X] 60g bullet
--[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
--[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
--[X] AP or API

[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
--[X] 225 gr bullet
--[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
--[X] Rimless cartridge
The reasoning here was that the 25mm from @radiorobot's plan seemed overkill and likely to result in something that was more of a stationary defense than an actual manportable small arm. At the same time, given the state of armor in 1910 ish, I thought it likely that we might not even need too much penetration for this to work. Thus, a smaller round that allows the operator to get more than two shots off of each shoulder and possibly a repeating action for more rapid follow-up shots might be a better idea.
 
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[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
--[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
--[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
--[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications

only thing I care about
 
[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 560 m/s
-[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
-[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
-[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.

[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 600 m/s.
--[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.

We've got a good and not overkill heavy mg round, a man portable round, and an emergency solution to any issues they might have here. Go me.
 
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Prelim tally:
Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 2:24 AM, finished with 1343 posts and 5 votes.
  • [X] Plan Two Zero One Oh Five
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] Plan Heavyweight
    -[X] 25×152mm
    --[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    --[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    --[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    -[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    [X] Plan Shoulder Protection
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] At least 600 m/s
    --[X] Designed for use out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    -[X] 14.5x114mm
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    -[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    -[X] General:
    --[X] Entertain the possibility of the enhanced penetrator round for all three
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [x] plan smoke rings
    -[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    --[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    --[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    --[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    -[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    -[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 8:22 AM, finished with 51 posts and 7 votes.
  • --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] AP or API
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    [X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    -[X] 650g bullet
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] Plan Two Zero One Oh Five
    --[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    -[X] 225 gr bullet
    -[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    --[X] Designed for use out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle.
    [X] Plan Heavyweight
    -[X] 25×152mm
    --[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    --[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    --[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    -[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    [X] Plan Shoulder Protection
    --[X] At least 600 m/s
    -[X] 14.5x114mm
    --[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    -[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    -[X] General:
    --[X] Entertain the possibility of the enhanced penetrator round for all three
    [x] plan smoke rings
    -[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Michael Lewis on Jun 28, 2018 at 8:23 AM, finished with 51 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Plan Two Zero One Oh Five
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [X] Plan Heavyweight
    -[X] 25×152mm
    --[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
    --[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
    --[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    -[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    [X] Plan Shoulder Protection
    -[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] At least 600 m/s
    --[X] Designed for use out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    -[X] 14.5x114mm
    --[X] 60g bullet
    --[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    --[X] AP or API
    -[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    --[X] 225 gr bullet
    --[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    --[X] Rimless cartridge
    -[X] General:
    --[X] Entertain the possibility of the enhanced penetrator round for all three
    [X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
    --[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
    --[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
    --[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
    [x] plan smoke rings
    -[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 360 m/s
    --[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
    --[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
    --[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
    -[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 400 m/s.
    -[X] Develop and issues a standard rifle round with tool steel bullet to machine gun crews in case of emergency.
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
    [X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    -[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X] 7.92×107mm PaP
    -[X] 225 gr bullet
    -[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Rimless cartridge
    [X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
    -[X] 60g bullet
    -[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X] 23x142mm Falke
    -[X] 140g bullet
    -[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
    -[X] AP or API
    [X] 37x136mm Roc
    -[X] 650g bullet
    -[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
    -[X] Designed for use in bolt action
    -[X] AP, HE, or APHE
Click to expand...
 
Let's see if I've got the block voting set up right.

[X] 37x136mm Roc
-[X] 650g bullet
-[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action
-[X] AP, HE, or APHE

[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
 
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X] 23x142mm Falke
-[X] 140g bullet
-[X] 800 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API

[X] 37x136mm Roc
-[X] 650g bullet
-[X] 525 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action
-[X] AP, HE, or APHE
 
Himmelhand said:
Let's see if I've got the block voting set up right.

[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
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That's wonky. I mean, setting aside that we use metric system and 7.92 is really not up our country's alley, something is very wrong about the bullet mass.
 
Kornet said:
That's wonky. I mean, setting aside that we use metric system and 7.92 is really not up our country's alley, something is very wrong about the bullet mass.
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Click to shrink...
Those aren't grams. Those are grains. A British unit commonly used for bullets and gunpowder. It's approximately 64.8 milligrams. In other words, that's a 14.57 gram bullet.

@N.Now I know that the vote tally's set up the wrong way. There simply wasn't any other way to keep all the bullet specs in one place and not have the vote be a catastrophic mess. This way, we aren't trying to sift out "25x200 Big Fucking Round" from "Muzzle velocity 3000 fps".

Also, we have two votes for the 14.5mm; I just cleaned it up a bit for mine.
 
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Since we're each voting for three cartridges, please split them up as I have (ie not in a plan) so that the tally works right.

Each cartridge should be its own independent block.
 
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