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Small Arms Commission Quest

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Frankengatsch & schneider Maschinengewehr should both pass, the first for being a generalist and the second for being rifle compatible and the first assault rifle analogue we have.

On the heavies keep the topani tripod but dump all the water cooled ones
 
NothingNow said:
The Schneider Maschinengewehr was probably the most complex weapon of the group, being essentially an Arbatescu rifle with a gas piston underneath and on the side driving the bolt.
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Do you mean simple? Because I have a hard time seeing a bolt action rifle selected for its simplicity with a gas piston added on being more complex than all the other designs.
 
TortugaGreen said:
Do you mean simple? Because I have a hard time seeing a bolt action rifle selected for its simplicity with a gas piston added on being more complex than all the other designs.
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A rotating bolt attached to a gas piston that needs to feed from below is pretty complicated, yes. Not all that much real estate to work with.
 
TortugaGreen said:
Do you mean simple? Because I have a hard time seeing a bolt action rifle selected for its simplicity with a gas piston added on being more complex than all the other designs.
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The other guns don't have a giant oprod and a bunch of clunky interfaces banged out by a lone guy on a milling machine (including a trick trigger group) added on. The other stuff could make do with simpler helical cams inside the action and the like and were a lot more compact and better sealed.


7734 said:
A rotating bolt attached to a gas piston that needs to feed from below is pretty complicated, yes. Not all that much real estate to work with.
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It's actually top-fed. This doesn't help that much since it still has to clear the area where a hand would be.
 
7734 said:
[X] Plan Trial
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Inform design team tripod weight is increased to 20kg
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of removal of water jacket.
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That seems like it would severely impact the sustained fire capability. If the goal is just to drop the teardown time it seems like asking for a bigger drain would be better.

globalwarmth said:
Frankengatsch & schneider Maschinengewehr should both pass, the first for being a generalist and the second for being rifle compatible and the first assault rifle analogue we have.
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The Schneider is not an assault rifle analogue.
 
globalwarmth said:
First step in that direction
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I'M A THIIIIING!

Grin_Reaper said:
That seems like it would severely impact the sustained fire capability. If the goal is just to drop the teardown time it seems like asking for a bigger drain would be better.
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I'm not looking for sustained fire; we have that in spades. I'm looking for setup speed primarily, but cutting weight is still a very major goal for the Landwhere, so out the water jacket goes.
 
[X] Plan Banana Split
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Cut
--[X] Handel
---[X] Advise design team to design better, 20kg tripod similar to Topani
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of a faster draining water jacket.
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Cut Handel
--[X] Approve remainder for field testing.

My rationale:
  • The Cirno can't even fire for a minute straight, so it doesn't cut it as an HMG.
  • The Handel HMG has a crappy tripod and slightly worse performance than the Topani, but those aspects can potentially be improved (esp. the tripod).
  • Topani can easily enlarge the drain on the water jacket.
  • Handel LMG can't fire immediately, that makes it shitty as an LMG. The rest seem like functional designs.
  • I could be convinced to advise the Frankengatsch to improve their magazines to a point where they don't need specialized tools to load.
 
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[X] Plan Banana Split
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Cut
--[X] Handel
---[X] Advise design team to design better, 20kg tripod similar to Topani
---[X] Advise design team to improve ability of the gun to fire long bursts without stoppages.
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of a faster draining water jacket.
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Cut Handel
--[X] Approve remainder for field testing.

Better plan than mine!
 
Without a water jacket or some other more efficient cooling method, the Handel simply cannot sustain fire for a longer period of time due to overheating. This is an inherent design limitation and one common with all the air cooled guns.
 
Sarpedon said:
Without a water jacket or some other more efficient cooling method, the Handel simply cannot sustain fire for a longer period of time due to overheating. This is an inherent design limitation and one common with all the air cooled guns.
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Indeed it is, just got clarification over discord. I removed that part of my plan.
 
[X] Plan Obvious
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Advise all to introduce new tripod designs within new 20kg weight limit
--[X] Have Topani enlarge water release valve
--[X] Approve all for further testing
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Cut Schneider, approve rest for further testing
 
[X] Plan Trial
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Inform design team tripod weight is increased to 20kg
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of removal of water jacket.
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Montel
--[X] Frankengatsch
--[X] Handel
 
Oksbad said:
My rationale:
  • The Cirno can't even fire for a minute straight, so it doesn't cut it as an HMG.
  • The Handel HMG has a crappy tripod and slightly worse performance than the Topani, but those aspects can potentially be improved (esp. the tripod).
  • Topani can easily enlarge the drain on the water jacket.
  • Handel LMG can't fire immediately, that makes it shitty as an LMG. The rest seem like functional designs.
  • I could be convinced to advise the Frankengatsch to improve their magazines to a point where they don't need specialized tools to load.
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- Modern field experiance in Iraq and Afghanistan has proven that seasoned fighters don't give a fuck about suppressing fire unless its landing in their vicinity with a degree of accuracy. Large sustained suppression fires are massively ineffective except for suppressing blockhouses; ergo longest sustained burst is a bad metric.
- The Handel can be improved, but we have little direction on how.
- The water jacket only improves low priority areas at free cost of the second highest priority, weight.
- An indexed drum mag will always need a loading tool.
 
[X] Plan Trial, modified
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Inform design team tripod weight is increased to 20kg
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of removal of water jacket.
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Montel
--[X] Frankengatsch
--[X] Handel
----[X] Also look into how well a tripod-mounted "light" Handel would work out.
----[X] Try to convince the designers to simplify field stripping so it's less of a pain in the ass to clean the thing.
----[X] If the set-up time is feed-related, look for ways to mitigate the issue.
 
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7734 said:
- Modern field experiance in Iraq and Afghanistan has proven that seasoned fighters don't give a fuck about suppressing fire unless its landing in their vicinity with a degree of accuracy. Large sustained suppression fires are massively ineffective except for suppressing blockhouses; ergo longest sustained burst is a bad metric.
- The Handel can be improved, but we have little direction on how.
- The water jacket only improves low priority areas at free cost of the second highest priority, weight.
- An indexed drum mag will always need a loading tool.
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This is a WW1 era HMG, I think sustained fire is more important than modern conflicts.

All the tests were based around it. There were no marksmanship, effective range or penetration trials this update.

Thank you for informing me about pan magazine loading.
 
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Oksbad said:
[thread=ThreadId]Title[/thread]

This is a WW1 era HMG, I think sustained fire is more important than modern conflicts.
All the test were based around it. There were no marksmanship, effective range or penetration trials this update.

Thank you for informing me about pan magazine loading.
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The thing is, testing a machine gun for accuracy et all is hard, and everything else is dependant on tripod and sights. I'm perfectly happy with how trials were run, honestly, but we still need to consider the realities of assaulting fortified and prepared positions; something that has barely changed in over a hundred years.
 
[X] Plan Banana Split
-[X] Heavier Guns
--[X] Cirno
---[X] Cut
--[X] Handel
---[X] Advise design team to design better, 20kg tripod similar to Topani
--[X] Topani
---[X] Inquire as to feasibility of a faster draining water jacket.
-[X] Lighter Guns
--[X] Cut Handel
--[X] Approve remainder for field testing.
 
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