You Are (Not) at Fault

Should this story start on Shinji's chapter (chapter 2) or Asuka's chapter (chapter 3)?

  • Shinji

    Votes: 23 44.2%
  • Asuka

    Votes: 19 36.5%
  • Either

    Votes: 10 19.2%

  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .
One thing that ticked me off in cannon was how the synchronization training was dropped after that episode. Or the fact that there was no team building exercises. Or any kind of combat training, bar that vr exercise shinji did near the beginning. Is two eva pilots working together not useful? You could even have a pacific rim type situation where the mental load and pain feedback is split between the pilots.

Teamwork makes the dream work!
 
One thing that ticked me off in cannon was how the synchronization training was dropped after that episode. Or the fact that there was no team building exercises. Or any kind of combat training, bar that vr exercise shinji did near the beginning. Is two eva pilots working together not useful? You could even have a pacific rim type situation where the mental load and pain feedback is split between the pilots.

Teamwork makes the dream work!
The military tactics in Eva never made much sense. The Children got their asses handed to them by Bardiel because they attacked one by one from positions that made it impossible for them to even see each other, much less offer mutual support. Hence why they did the opposite in A&T. You're right, they should have been working on group tactics as often as possible, and constant close cooperation with the JSSDF conventional assets. Even if they can't hurt an Angel, they can distract it and keep its attention away from the Eva's getting a killing strike ready or something.
 
So I actually just watched that scene for the first time, and is it weird to say that I was unimpressed? Yes, Gendo is an idiot, but Asuka goes down instantly? Rei, who admittedly isn't the close range combatant Asuka or Shinji is, ALSO goes down with virtually zero effort? I'm not talking about after her arm is blown off (Yeah, don't sever the nerve connection first, you fucking tool), I'm talking about when Bardiel pins her like she's trying to grapple someone twice her size. Bardiel's moving at a(n Eva-sized) snail's pace, how did it get the jump on them? Specifically, when Asuka is about to tell Shinji the pilot is Touji.

And then there's the Dummy Plug. I was expecting more from it. The only moments during its activation that really gave me pause were it pulping Unit-03's head and crushing the entry plug. The shots of the buildings with huge blood splatters was a nice touch, as was the river turning red, but I feel like the scene was done about a hundred times better in its Rebuild incarnation, at least as far as "brutal visceral horror" goes. That shit was like the MP Evas tearing Asuka apart.

I do think the Dummy Plug crushing the entry plug in its grip was a better touch than Unit-01 cracking it in its jaws.
 
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It's been a good long while since I've seen 2.0, but I do know what you're talking about. I do remember being freaked out by the coffin she was quarantined in after the event.
 
You're right, they should have been working on group tactics as often as possible, and constant close cooperation with the JSSDF conventional assets. Even if they can't hurt an Angel, they can distract it and keep its attention away from the Eva's getting a killing strike ready or something.

Ever read In Tune?

So I actually just watched that scene for the first time, and is it weird to say that I was unimpressed? Yes, Gendo is an idiot, but Asuka goes down instantly? Rei, who admittedly isn't the close range combatant Asuka or Shinji is, ALSO goes down with virtually zero effort? I'm not talking about after her arm is blown off (Yeah, don't sever the nerve connection first, you fucking tool), I'm talking about when Bardiel pins her like she's trying to grapple someone twice her size. Bardiel's moving at a(n Eva-sized) snail's pace, how did it get the jump on them? Specifically, when Asuka is about to tell Shinji the pilot is Touji.

I always thought that Asuka going down immediately was due to being really distracted with worrying about telling Shinji, and a non-zero amount of care about Toji, so she got sucker punched.

But yeah, Eva tactics... Anno is nothing if not themes before everything.

Edit: Eva, a series where everything goes to increasingly depressing shit and people experience being maimed horribly physically and emotionally sometimes before horrific deaths, but would be only be lightly injured in a decent chunk of fights with proper emotional support and healthy communication to keep them on task and working in sync; but that's the point of the whole thing, so, it is what it is.

I mean, more bombardment to get an idea of enemy abilities would have helped too, but certain angels still were kind of just OCPs designed thematically around the main ideas with no consistency to their abilities, so good teamwork could still flounder against Leliel or Armisael.

Themes and message first though, so, military logic took a far back seat. Still, I do so wish the sync training had more lasting consequences for their behavior. I guess you really couldn't have them keep at that training on a regular basis and keep it a cautionary tale about the damage of poor communication in relationships, because they'd probably even have wrecked Zeruel without too much issue after continuing to communicate to an increasing degree, but do something more with it at least Anno!

*shrugs* I guess sync training was showing how powerful a relationship can be before it showed its decline as they got increasingly distant after the failed kiss? That's probably why Matariel was made to be such a scrub taken out with team work, trust, and compromise; since they were at a relationship and general happiness high point around that time.

Eva is flawed in a number of ways, but very interesting regardless. That's probably why we have so much fanfiction, and so much official basically fanfiction. It's a thematic and character goldmine in a way.

Even Rebuild seems like more a weird maybe sequel/AU thing exploring the opposite side of how one can fail to communicate and invite disaster by doing so than a remake. 3.33 was not subtle about the themes, which I think it suffered for; well, I actually withhold judgement until 4.0, 1.0+3.0, or whatever they say they're going to call it after they get to work on it hopefully after Shin Godzilla.

On an unrelated note in regards to Shin Godzilla, I so so cannot wait to hear Shiro Sagisu's take on the classic Godzilla theme music! Plus what Anno does with some themes that seem sort of diametrically opposed to those of Eva.
 
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I always thought that Asuka going down immediately was due to being really distracted with worrying about telling Shinji, and a non-zero amount of care about Toji, so she got sucker punched.
That, compounded with the failed kiss, really started the downward spiral. It might make for an interesting starting point for a point of divergence fic: what if she immediately took action to get Toji out and rallied the other Children? If they hadn't failed so thoroughly in that fight, maybe Asuka and Shinji might have healed the damage caused by the failed kiss.
 
That, compounded with the failed kiss, really started the downward spiral. It might make for an interesting starting point for a point of divergence fic: what if she immediately took action to get Toji out and rallied the other Children? If they hadn't failed so thoroughly in that fight, maybe Asuka and Shinji might have healed the damage caused by the failed kiss.
If we are going to be theorizing, I'll through my two knuts in and say that it will probably end like in A&T with Shinji and Asuka at the least suspended, probably more.

That would be dangerous in itself, because it requires Shinji to pull his head out of his ass and comfort Asuka lest she breaks down completely.

Assuming he does that, our favorite redhead might then desperately clutch onto Shinji as her reason to go on.

...Is it just me being me, or is that PoD kinda depressing?
 
Bardiel is where everything really starts to slide downhill with no hope of recovery, yeah. Recovering anything like a stable, positive set up for the Children past Bardiel becomes increasingly impossible, so this really is the last point you can stop it from becoming a tragedy.
 
Bardiel is where everything really starts to slide downhill with no hope of recovery, yeah. Recovering anything like a stable, positive set up for the Children past Bardiel becomes increasingly impossible, so this really is the last point you can stop it from becoming a tragedy.
You could claim that Armisael is the very definite last chance, but that would pretty much require the PoD to actually happen earlier. As an example for that fight, I think it was That Which Could (Not) Happen where, earlier in the story, Kaji sneaks Shinji a code that lets him break out of an Eva lockdown.

Other than something like that, you'd likely be straying into either OOC territory, or doing something contrived, to get Shinji out there rescuing Asuka.
 
The military tactics in Eva never made much sense. The Children got their asses handed to them by Bardiel because they attacked one by one from positions that made it impossible for them to even see each other, much less offer mutual support. Hence why they did the opposite in A&T. You're right, they should have been working on group tactics as often as possible, and constant close cooperation with the JSSDF conventional assets. Even if they can't hurt an Angel, they can distract it and keep its attention away from the Eva's getting a killing strike ready or something.
Strypgia, since you are a military man, I was wondering if you could answer some questions.
1. Does the U.S. Military and by extension, most major militarizes, require a psych evaluation on a regular (yearly) basis?
2. Should Misato have to be reporting to a superior officer on a regular basis? A Major and/or a Lieutenant Colonel? Should there have been a subordinate officer stationed with her, ready to take over should Misato be unable to do her duties? A First Lieutenant and/or a Captain?
 
Strypgia, since you are a military man, I was wondering if you could answer some questions.
1. Does the U.S. Military and by extension, most major militarizes, require a psych evaluation on a regular (yearly) basis?
2. Should Misato have to be reporting to a superior officer on a regular basis? A Major and/or a Lieutenant Colonel? Should there have been a subordinate officer stationed with her, ready to take over should Misato be unable to do her duties? A First Lieutenant and/or a Captain?
Sort of. I had to show no signs of major mental problems whenever I renewed my security clearance, though some forms of psychological counseling were specifically excluded from being used as a negative factor, like grief, marital counseling, or PTSD (that last had to be severe before it could be grounds for denial of clearance). And every time we returned home from 12+ months in Iraq, we had several days of briefings where counseling, chaplain's care, and other things were brought up and made available. Deployed bases of brigade size or larger have dedicated clinics of psych docs and chaplains specifically for helping manage stress, etc. So care was available.

A psych evaluation, though? Not on a regular basis. I think people in sensitive positions, like nuclear missile silo crews and submarine captains do, though. It's a matter of job position, I believe.

For the latter, not really on the reporting. Misato was low-rank for her position (which I think is why she was quietly bumped to a Lieutenant Colonel in Rebuild.), but NERV is a semi-military Special Purpose UN Agency, so they basically are a custom build. Misato reports to Gendo and Fuyutsuki as Commander and Sub-Commander, but they're far more scientists than military men. She definitely should have had a subordinate, though. Anything can happen, from her getting injured when Bardiel blew up Matsushiro, to her just being out of position during the blackout and unable to reach Central Dogma. You always have redundancy.

For example: Once upon a time my battalion was at Fort Polk for a training rotation. During a foot patrol in the simulated village, a 'man with a knife' managed to run right through our BN Commander's security detail and 'stab him in the neck', then get away. The referees decided this was a great chance to see how our Battalion would react to our commander suddenly being dead, so he was taken off the field for 24 hours. Our Battalion XO, Major Johnson, stepped right up, and things kept going. The mission is never allowed to stop for one person.
 
She definitely should have had a subordinate, though. Anything can happen, from her getting injured when Bardiel blew up Matsushiro, to her just being out of position during the blackout and unable to reach Central Dogma. You always have redundancy.
Though, I think you could argue that the Bardiel episode shows that Gendoh thought himself to be good enough for that, and that Misato was the redundancy, in his mind.
 
Another thing about this episode that's bugging me: Most material I've read says that Gendo was SUPER eager to use the dummy plug. But he doesn't order it deployed until Shinji refuses to fight outright (NGE) or Shinji is about to die (RoE). Why not just deploy at least one Evangelion immediately DP-active? He knows Shinji is the most effective combatant so he'd probably want Unit-01 to be controlled directly at that point, but why risk Rei? And why risk Asuka doing something stupid like she did against Israfel?

EDIT: It just occured to me that there really isn't any risk to Rei before Ritsuko flushes the clones, but the point still stands that Rei is an asset that doesn't need to he carelessly thrown away, even with a back-up.
 
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Another thing about this episode that's bugging me: Most material I've read, including A&T, says that Gendo was SUPER eager to use the dummy plug. But he doesn't order it deployed until Shinji refuses to fight outright (NGE) or Shinji is about to die (RoE). Why not just deploy at least one Evangelion immediately DP-active? He knows Shinji is the most effective combatant so he'd probably want Unit-01 to be controlled directly at that point, but why risk Rei? And why risk Asuka doing something stupid like she did against Israfel?
If I'm not mistaken, the Dummy Plug had been untested up until that point. I assume not even Gendo is clueless enough to depend on something like that unless the situation is sufficiently desperate (like the Positron Cannon during Ramiel's siege).
 
A psych evaluation, though? Not on a regular basis. I think people in sensitive positions, like nuclear missile silo crews and submarine captains do, though. It's a matter of job position, I believe.

For the latter, not really on the reporting. Misato was low-rank for her position (which I think is why she was quietly bumped to a Lieutenant Colonel in Rebuild.), but NERV is a semi-military Special Purpose UN Agency, so they basically are a custom build. Misato reports to Gendo and Fuyutsuki as Commander and Sub-Commander, but they're far more scientists than military men. She definitely should have had a subordinate, though. Anything can happen, from her getting injured when Bardiel blew up Matsushiro, to her just being out of position during the blackout and unable to reach Central Dogma. You always have redundancy.
Piloting a giant cyborg that can tank a nuke? Sounds like the perfect position to have regular psych evaluation. Lol. Although i do suspect seele running interference and the secrecy of the project before the Angels show up as a reason that this was not done with the pilots.

Although once the project is brought to light of day, anyone in a position of power and a lick of morals will be calling for better care of the pilots. Seele only works as it did because of working within the system and not rocking the boat. Once a conspiracy gets too big or becomes too obnoxious / obvious, the chance of it becoming exposed gets higher. We already see this with kaji and the japanese department of interior (japans spy agency i think). Combining with Gendos incompetence (in my opinion regarding bringing shinji in as he did, the bardiel situation, etc...) it was only a matter of time. It worked in seeles and gendos favor that the Angel war lasted less than a year.
 
That's part of my point: An Angel attack is the perfect time to remove a problem/unstable element (Asuka) to test something like the Dummy Plug while keeping your best asset (Shinji in Unit-01) active in case something goes wrong, if Gendo really was as eager to get them on the field as he's often portrayed.

If the Dummy Plug works despite lack of more testing, fantastic. If not, you've still got Yui to bail you out against quite literally every Angel but three, two of whom hadn't even shown up yet.

Maybe I'm expecting more out of the characters than they're capable of, but everything I'm seeing says Gendo WAS cautious of the Dummy Plugs and his grin as it was tearing Bardiel apart was him thinking "Oh, this is PERFECT." He gets to take Shinji out of the line of fire and he gets an Evangelion that is guaranteed to follow his orders. At that point the Scenario was all-but-guaranteed. Yui shutting out the Dummy Plug and Rei betraying him at the last moment were so far out of left field he couldn't have predicted them.
 
I'm not sure they had cause to bench Asuka at this point. She acquitted herself well against Sahaquiel, the last Angel she'd fought, after all (Ireul was weird and Leliel cheated).
 
Yui shutting out the Dummy Plug and Rei betraying him at the last moment were so far out of left field he couldn't have predicted them.
Maybe Rei was, but what did he expect when he subjected his own son to that almost literally inside his mother's womb? That mommy would thank him?

He can be glad she only snubbed him.
 
Maybe Rei was, but what did he expect when he subjected his own son to that almost literally inside his mother's womb? That mommy would thank him?

He can be glad she only snubbed him.
To be fair, she did bite him in half later.
I'm not sure they had cause to bench Asuka at this point. She acquitted herself well against Sahaquiel, the last Angel she'd fought, after all (Ireul was weird and Leliel cheated).
Yes, but she still has a history of being extremely heated and reluctant to follow orders. I'm not saying it would have been permanent, but for this particular sortie to test the Dummy Plug.
 
Maybe Rei was, but what did he expect when he subjected his own son to that almost literally inside his mother's womb? That mommy would thank him?

He can be glad she only snubbed him.
Things were going somewhat according to plan up to a point, so maybe he was overconfident. But then again, arrogance was a characteristic of SEELE and Gendo. They thought themselves greater than they actually were.
 
To be fair, she did bite him in half later.
Speaking of that point, am I the only one who thinks that Gendo was just talking shit when he said he was afraid of Shinji? Literally the entire series he doesn't show more than vague interest in his own son, and when he does it's just to order him around. At no point do we see even an inkling of anything resembling concern. It's all 'Get in the fucking robot you little shithead'.

This situation is actually going to give me trouble at a major point in Ya(N)aF, because I don't know how to have Shinji react to an important thing.
 
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