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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

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invictus1829 said:
Also, I figure that if we are able to bring the system to heel before their fleet returns we can take their BCs for ourselves completely unscathed. I figure that they would be willing to stand down if they see that the lives of their families are at risk. It would be glorious!
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I'm not so sure. It may be that threatening their families only enrages them further.

So far, the NASP have not retired in the face of Imperial provocation - they've always upped the ante.

These people likely have a strong ideological and personal hatred for the empire now, so trying to hold Chuang Mu hostage might work as well as the Germans trying to hold London hostage worked during WW2.

Dwergar said:
About two weeks to prepare a raid. Week in transit. Some weeks reducing Chaung Mu defences - they're extensive, after all. A week for news to reach ships over Imhotep, and likely more.

A lot of time. Possibly enough for NASP reinforcements to reach Chaung Mu.
Remember, it is a loyal NASP member (Officially); It's a fleet over Imhotep that is a rogue actor.
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This is a significant point.

Hitting Chuang Mu is much more likely to go over time, and Reinhard really needs to keep moving too fast to get cornered.

Gunman said:
I may be mis-characterizing @Satar but I believe his argument is that we can threaten to ruin Chuang Mu. In return for regaining what is now a ruined world, they end up with one of their most wealthy and developed worlds in a similar or worse state. Launching some nukes and targeting the best spots to ruin the biosphere or kill as many as possible is going to be done faster than a conventional siege.
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As I understand it Chuang Mu's fortifications are there to stop exactly that kind of attack, so we'd need to siege conventionally to hit the population.

fasquardon
 
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@Artificial Girl For what speed ship? My initial guesstimate is about 5 days for a light cruiser and double that for a battleship. 3 days for an attack skiff or 4 for a patrol cutter.
 
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Packrat said:
@Artificial Girl For what speed ship? My initial guesstimate is about 5 days for a light cruiser and double that for a battleship. 3 days for an attack skiff or 3 for a patrol cutter.
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Mostly curious for heavy ships like battleships.

So basically, if one of the enemy skiffs makes an escape, or even a civilian ship manages to flee our fleet to carry a message to Imhotep, we DO have a serious risk of the battleships over Imhotep jumping back into the system and sandwiching us while we're trying to pound our way through the defenses at Chuang Mu, since it could takes us weeks to reduce the defenses and the battleships can be back at Chuang Mu in 8-10 days, counting travel time for a messenger ship.
 
So from that guesstimate, if we hit Chaung Mu we have at least 13 days to reduce the system, assuming they can get one of their attack skiffs away with a warning. If we're lucky, we might be able to stop that happening.

I think that's long enough.
 
[X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
 
@Packrat how long does our PC think it would take to reduce Chaung Mu's defences with four Heavy Cruisers? Just ballpark. That would help with decision making here.

Artificial Girl said:
or even a civilian ship manages to flee our fleet to carry a message to Imhotep
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Civilian ships will take weeks to reach Imhotep. It took us three to get from there to Illam. If it's only civvie ships that get out, we're in the clear.
 
@Snowfire A lot really does depend upon how competent their command and crew are, also how willing you are to take damage.

If you were not bullshit, their defenses would be enough to hold off four heavy cruisers for a month taking it steady. If all four heavy cruisers were as bullshit as you were with the Endeavour (with her elite crew?). Then you could do it in a few days. A lot really depends on how competent the Viscountess and her crews are, though their upgraded heavy cruisers are as good as older ships with crews one level better.
 
What would the end goal of sieging Chuang Mu be? Stopping the battleships from attacking Imhotep I assume. which would require us to reduce Chuang Mu's defences and then have a diplomacy/subterfuge roll to make them back down, then what? The battleships go back home if we succeed. But that still leaves behind Chuang Mu in full control of their battleships and still hating us probably even more; it probably wouldn't even increase the strife between Chuang Mu and NASP. Unlike Harass, which if it lost NASP even one of the battleships would make the NASP put all the blame on Chuang Mu. As well as the fact it would be a much greater victory and revenge to destroy a battleship to make them back down rather than using blackmail - which as an addition could be seen as dishonourable in this society.

Obviously this is all guesswork on how it would go down, but I do think it is important to think what will happen after we succeed at either of these options and personally I think harass is the superior option in that regard.
 
Generallymyself said:
What would the end goal of sieging Chuang Mu be? Stopping the battleships from attacking Imhotep I assume. which would require us to reduce Chuang Mu's defences and then have a diplomacy/subterfuge roll to make them back down, then what? The battleships go back home if we succeed. But that still leaves behind Chuang Mu in full control of their battleships and still hating us probably even more; it probably wouldn't even increase the strife between Chuang Mu and NASP. Unlike Harass, which if it lost NASP even one of the battleships would make the NASP put all the blame on Chuang Mu. As well as the fact it would be a much greater victory and revenge to destroy a battleship to make them back down rather than using blackmail - which as an addition could be seen as dishonourable in this society.

Obviously this is all guesswork on how it would go down, but I do think it is important to think what will happen after we succeed at either of these options and personally I think harass is the superior option in that regard.
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The intent is to break their defences, eat their defence fleet, and then loot them for everything they have before we blow up their main shipyards (that are needed to build and maintain their battleships) and then bugger off, leaving their battleships without a functional support base and delivering a severe political chastisement to them having their main fleet component go aggressive on us instead of heading home like they should have done to make sure we couldn't do this again. Recall that Chuang Mu has a loot threshold in the multiple hundreds of Wealth. That's enough, if we invest it, to run a personal battlecruiser. It also has strategic concerns, because it leaves Chaung Mu screaming at the NASP for help after they incited us to come after them with a rogue action that could have sent the entire frontier into hot war. The NASP doesn't like us, but they're a federalist power with all the problems that go with that. Chuang Mu putting the Rana Salient at risk for nothing more than their bruised ego won't play well with NASP high command, and again, if we have the Governer make it clear to NASP factors that if they leave Chuang Mu to us, we'll accept their 'rogue action' story, then that could leave Chuang Mu in a wonderfully vulnerable place for a proper conquest a year or so down the line.

It might not go quite this well, probably won't, but the potential is there. And even if it doesn't work out, we can reduce a major economic and logistic strongpoint on the NASP side of the frontier. That matters.
 
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[X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
 
Forgothrax said:
The NASP is calling them rogue actors and is not supporting them here at all. This is the classic "why does Treason always prosper? Because if it prospers, none dare call it treason." The NASP is absolutely furious about this, no doubt, but if the Chuangers succeed in hurting us and breaking Imhotep loose they'll support the Chuangers. But if we bust up the Chuang fleet and crack their defenses, they'll wash their hands of them and likely sue for peace.
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While the fleet is rogue, that doesn't not mean that the NASP have washed their hands of them entirely, they will seek to get them back under control. If we bust the Chaung system and its very, very rich worlds, that is going to escalate things. That should go without saying. They are several worlds that are rich and contribute a lot to the NASP in resources and money. We are not acting in a vacuum where our actions don't have consequences. We have been successful, extremely successful against our enemies. We've wiped out several fleets and captured some very important ships, no less killing an admiral and capturing her battlecruiser. We've also gone ahead and already forced one of the Chaung worlds to give us a lot of money at the risk of destruction. The NASP has been humiliated, and no doubt its people AND its admiralty are in a uproar about how this could have happened. The NASP have to make a move to prove they aren't weak, us smashing the Chaung system and looting it will force them to escalate their military presence significantly AND get them invade our systems to show that they aren't weak, because if they don't they could see protests and even possibly secession from worlds who don't feel safe anymore under the Union.

If on the other hand we attack, destroy and possibly capture the 'rogue' fleet, they can only grit their teeth and accept that they have been defeated, but it won't escalate matters. They are going to reinforce their nearby systems to us, there's no question about that. We've done too much damage and citizens in the NASP have likely taken note and demanded their representatives do something about it. But it won't lead to a war.
 
To chime in here, one thing to consider is that the empire is not inherently weaker then the NASP alliance, even if your border presence is definitely weaker. The reason that your border fleet is so weak is that Imperial Fleet command has a death ball of a hundred plus battleships with support elements over the throne world. As well as another fifty capital ships in the core sectors.

Obviously a large part of the reason behind that is that there are ducal houses who might consider going after the throne if the Imperial Fleet looses too many of those battleships or leaves the throne world unguarded, but if those ducal houses are loyal? The empire has somewhere around two hundred and fifty capital ships.
 
Snowfire said:
The intent is to break their defences, eat their defence fleet, and then loot them for everything they have before we blow up their main shipyards (that are needed to build and maintain their battleships) and then bugger off, leaving their battleships without a functional support base and delivering a severe political chastisement to them having their main fleet component go aggressive on us instead of heading home like they should have done to make sure we couldn't do this again. Recall that Chuang Mu has a loot threshold in the multiple hundreds of Wealth. That's enough, if we invest it, to run a personal battlecruiser. It also has strategic concerns, because it leaves Chaung Mu screaming at the NASP for help after they incited us to come after them with a rogue action that could have sent the entire frontier into hot war. The NASP doesn't like us, but they're a federalist power with all the problems that go with that. Chuang Mu putting the Rana Salient at risk for nothing more than their bruised ego won't play well with NASP high command, and again, if we have the Governer make it clear to NASP factors that if they leave Chuang Mu to us, we'll accept their 'rogue action' story, then that could leave Chuang Mu in a wonderfully vulnerable place for a proper conquest a year or so down the line.
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On the other hand, precisely because the NASP is a federalist power, they can't ignore a member that's being raked over the coals by the Imperium. If they do, it risks all of their members walking out.

I don't doubt that the NASP leadership is upset Chuang Mu moved without them, but I am sure that if we force the NASP to choose between existence and backing up a member they are annoyed by against the Empire, they'll back the member against the Empire.

I'll be honest, if we were playing the NASP quest and Reinhard hit Chuang Mu again, I'd feel the only rational choice was to escalate further. And with things as they are, that might mean war. Which even if Reinhard can handle, I doubt the empire can.

@Packrat: If we choose to attack the NASP over Imhotep, can we buy up investments and futures in the Imhotep system? I'm imagining that this latest reverse in Imhotep means there's alot of nobles selling out and opportunities to do insider trading if we think we can hold the system...

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
Which even if Reinhard can handle, I doubt the empire can.
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I feel like the post above yours somewhat invalidates this statement.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Sep 3, 2018 at 6:43 PM, finished with 2242 posts and 29 votes.
  • [X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
    [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    [X] Their problem. The Imperial Fleet is exhausted. Now is the time for the Duchies to show their patriotism!
    [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    -[X] conscript every ship you can, and use political favour to borrow more from every local ducal House and crush the rogue fleet over Imhotep
    [X] Reinforcements. The Imperial Navy is keeping it's capital ships in reserve as a fleet in being, but there is now a squadron of NASP capital ships pushed into Imperial space. You are not equipped to fight them but your job is to serve as a trip wire not deal with an invasion. Request that Fleet Command send heavy vessels to assist.
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[X] Reinforcements. The Imperial Navy is keeping it's capital ships in reserve as a fleet in being, but there is now a squadron of NASP capital ships pushed into Imperial space. You are not equipped to fight them but your job is to serve as a trip wire not deal with an invasion. Request that Fleet Command send heavy vessels to assist.

Why not go for the sure thing? They've already killed all the Imperial forces on Imhotep, so there's no one we're desperately waiting to rescue. Take a little extra time and roll in with a superior fleetball and mow them down. The Imperial Navy can easily break loose enough ships to crush them, especially if NASP lets them swing in the breeze.
 
Snowfire said:
I feel like the post above yours somewhat invalidates this statement.
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The problem is, the ducal houses aren't loyal.

Now, potentially Reinhard can profit like a bandit if war starts with the NASP and the empire breaks into civil war during or just after the second NASP war. I am wary about getting drunk on Reinhard's stats though.

I don't want him to end up like Napoleon or Nader Shah and keep attacking until he bites off more than he can chew.

So I don't think what Packrat had to say does invalidate my point.

Also, as I've said before, I think going for the battleships is the path to more loot.

fasquardon
 
Come on people, we're drawn up now. A vote for Raiding is a vote for breaking the border of the NASP under the enraged incompetence of their member states!
 
fasquardon said:
Now, potentially Reinhard can profit like a bandit if war starts with the NASP and the empire breaks into civil war during or just after the second NASP war. I am wary about getting drunk on Reinhard's stats though.
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In my opinion the best case scenario is a second NASP war before the civil war. If NASP is eliminated as a threat, the Imperium can have their civil war without NASP "liberating" multiple sectors.
 
I don't know if now is the proper time, but I just wish to voice my opinion on the potential of a second Empire-NASP war.

I will be entirely clear, a war between these two powers is only beneficial for us. War more than likely means additional funding and even more opportunities to raid and make a profit.

If thing go very well, we could leverage our PC into gaining control of even more forces. Afterall, in the eyes of many nobles and even commoners, we are something of a hero. I imagine that we are the kind of person who people point to and say "he might be a commoner but he sure as hell is one of our greatest strategists".

Not that I think what the empire things of us truly matters to Reinhard.

In the end we are not the Empire or one of its loyal servants. We are simply Reinhard. And we as players should do everything in our power to ensure that things go well for him.
The Empire is little more than a means to an end for us. As is NASP.

If we were to lead the two into war with one another, we would want it to be as bloody and drawn out as possible. The longer the war goes on, the longer we have to amass power and gain the loyalty of others. Regardless of who wins this hypothetical war, I want to see US as the ones on top.

Let the Empire and NASP bleed each other dry. Their loss is our gain. Any potential power vacuum can be filled by us. That is what I want to see. We are potentially the most brilliant strategic mind on this side of human inhabited space. Let us leverage that into power. Pure and simple.
 
Gunman said:
In my opinion the best case scenario is a second NASP war before the civil war. If NASP is eliminated as a threat, the Imperium can have their civil war without NASP "liberating" multiple sectors.
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That it would involve large capital ship numbers ending up in our sector, under our command, is only an accidental side effect of course :p
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Satar on Sep 3, 2018 at 6:48 PM, finished with 2244 posts and 29 votes.
  • [X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
    [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    [X] Their problem. The Imperial Fleet is exhausted. Now is the time for the Duchies to show their patriotism!
    [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    -[X] conscript every ship you can, and use political favour to borrow more from every local ducal House and crush the rogue fleet over Imhotep
    [X] Harass
    [X] Reinforcements. The Imperial Navy is keeping it's capital ships in reserve as a fleet in being, but there is now a squadron of NASP capital ships pushed into Imperial space. You are not equipped to fight them but your job is to serve as a trip wire not deal with an invasion. Request that Fleet Command send heavy vessels to assist.
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@fasquardon raiding chuang mu is still a threat. Look at one of the earlier vote options we had for Chuang Mu

[] Destroy Them. In retribution for the atrocities carried out on Imhotep, kill three hundred million people with fusion torpedoes, wrecking the infrastructure around the gas giant for decades to come and sending an unmistakable message of Imperial supremacy. (Will only take hours, then you can leave, will give ~30 Political Capital)

If we really want to, we can threaten to take it further than that. The new reinforcements should have their own heavy firepower because they're newer heavy cruisers.
 
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Gunman said:
In my opinion the best case scenario is a second NASP war before the civil war. If NASP is eliminated as a threat, the Imperium can have their civil war without NASP "liberating" multiple sectors.
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So you reckon we should seek to precipitate war so we can finish off the NASP before the empress dies?

I'm not sure we can finish the NASP off so quickly. But then we can't make any guesses as to how long the empress will hang on...

Also, the NASP "liberating" sectors and Reinhard "re-liberating" them could actually drive the social change that would lead to people supporting Reinhard as emperor or president...

invictus1829 said:
If we were to lead the two into war with one another, we would want it to be as bloody and drawn out as possible. The longer the war goes on, the longer we have to amass power and gain the loyalty of others. Regardless of who wins this hypothetical war, I want to see US as the ones on top.
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I have a feeling it will be long and bloody whatever Reinhard does. The NASP is a peer power with a slight technological edge against the empire's slight manpower edge...

Certainly such chaos would make gaining the imperial throne easier.

Gunman said:
@fasquardon raiding chuang mu is still a threat. Look at one of the earlier vote options we had for Chuang Mu

[] Destroy Them. In retribution for the atrocities carried out on Imhotep, kill three hundred million people with fusion torpedoes, wrecking the infrastructure around the gas giant for decades to come and sending an unmistakable message of Imperial supremacy. (Will only take hours, then you can leave, will give ~30 Political Capital)

If we really want to, we can threaten to take it further than that. The new reinforcements should have their own heavy firepower because they're newer heavy cruisers.
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I'm not quite sure what point of mine you are replying to.

That I don't think that Chuang Mu will be nicely cowed if we threaten them?

fasquardon
 
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