That doesn't affect or relate to my opinion.
Xianxia Encompassing the World! (Xianxia Rec Discussion and Idea thread)
- Thread starter Hangwind
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That doesn't affect or relate to my opinion.
- Location
- Nunya, Arizona
Eh, it's pretty consistently a signal there's going to be issues of one sort or another with the writing. Just the basic nature of it means the writer's taking on a challenge above and beyond the fundamental complications romance of any sort induces in a story, which means they're either going to screw it up (and in my experience, it's definitely that one most often and by a wide, wiiiiiide margin, heh) or it's going to chew up a lot of proverbial screen time in order to be handled elegantly.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's a DNF waiting to happen, or that the story won't be otherwise enjoyable (particularly if you like that kind of mess to begin with), but there's a pattern there and it's not hard to notice
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- Cyberspace
Eh, it's pretty consistently a signal there's going to be issues of one sort or another with the writing. Just the basic nature of it means the writer's taking on a challenge above and beyond the fundamental complications romance of any sort induces in a story, which means they're either going to screw it up (and in my experience, it's definitely that one most often and by a wide, wiiiiiide margin, heh) or it's going to chew up a lot of proverbial screen time in order to be handled elegantly.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's a DNF waiting to happen, or that the story won't be otherwise enjoyable (particularly if you like that kind of mess to begin with), but there's a pattern there and it's not hard to notice
True - and I think I've definitely found that xianxia with a main couple (or even the protagonist being committed to avoiding entanglements entirely) tends to be more enjoyable to read. I suppose that's one reason I rather like I Eat Tomatoes's stories - he tends to establish an early romance that's a fairly enduring bond that occasionally drives bits of the plot. And the romance for "Turquoise Pond" is rather charming to read.
That said, I recall occasionally seeing one where it either didn't detract even though it was reasonably front-and-center (such as "My Senior Brother is Too Steady") or was so much to the side that it was barely a mention.
In the example above, both relationships took up a lot of screen time, but felt reasonably well integrated. They even, I would argue, add to the story (although the romance with the junior sister from the title could have fairly easily stayed platonic/familial without losing anything in particular). But that's a rare bird on that front.
Eh, it's pretty consistently a signal there's going to be issues of one sort or another with the writing. Just the basic nature of it means the writer's taking on a challenge above and beyond the fundamental complications romance of any sort induces in a story, which means they're either going to screw it up (and in my experience, it's definitely that one most often and by a wide, wiiiiiide margin, heh) or it's going to chew up a lot of proverbial screen time in order to be handled elegantly.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's a DNF waiting to happen, or that the story won't be otherwise enjoyable (particularly if you like that kind of mess to begin with), but there's a pattern there and it's not hard to notice
I think your logic generally makes sense, but there are enough non-harem-related reasons for a story to suck that I've generally found my expectation and experience of a fic to be more reflective of other aspects.
Personally, I evaluate harems the same way I evaluate romance. A well written romantic relationship is a well written platonic relationship with well written characters that gets the romance added to it.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
In this particular case it really hasn't progressed anything like far enough for that sort of thing to kick in. At this rate, I'm not convinced that it ever will.Eh, it's pretty consistently a signal there's going to be issues of one sort or another with the writing. Just the basic nature of it means the writer's taking on a challenge above and beyond the fundamental complications romance of any sort induces in a story, which means they're either going to screw it up (and in my experience, it's definitely that one most often and by a wide, wiiiiiide margin, heh) or it's going to chew up a lot of proverbial screen time in order to be handled elegantly.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's a DNF waiting to happen, or that the story won't be otherwise enjoyable (particularly if you like that kind of mess to begin with), but there's a pattern there and it's not hard to notice
- Location
- Nunya, Arizona
Gods, yes, as sins of xianxia land go, where mass murderers and/or rapists are relatively common main characters, harem mess is way down the list. It's (usually, when it doesn't also tie into nasty crap) more a canary in the punch magic coal mine than an actual pocket of mystical carbon monoxide or somethin', heh.
The only times I've actually had the harem stuff itself break the back of my tolerance for a story is when it was tied in with slavery, or had some serious dub/non-con issues of other sorts involved. As they say, if I had a penny for every time it happened, I wouldn't have much loose change, but it's kinda' concerning I'd have any at all
I stick with it because it's the only xianxia I've liked aside from Virtuous Sons and Cradle. Heck, my interest in Cradle actually started flagging around Bloodline, read the beginning of Reaper and decided to come back to it later.
Virtuous Sons does not feel "YA", and same with Ave Xia in spite of character ages in some ways. I'm going to hold out the hope the harem doesn't take up too much screen time. I've tried Path of Ascension, Forge, and many other major english cultivation recs.
Heart of Cultivation by jacobk seemed good, but it's abandoned and it became clear the author loved to lean heavily on the humorous misunderstanding trope to drive the plot forward, which got annoying for me. To be fair, Virtuous Sons does something similar, but it doesn't seem to dominate the story in the same way. It helps that the setting of VS is more fleshed out and interesting, while there are also a bunch of interesting characters.
May try Memories of the Fall again, if that rewrite ever finishes.
Was never a big light novel reader/isekai anime watcher. so maybe I was less cynical about Ave Xia Rem Y. My first major exposure to harems in media was translations and serials on RR. Did still avoid the story for a full year though, until one day I just went "screw it. why not?"
Virtuous Sons does not feel "YA", and same with Ave Xia in spite of character ages in some ways. I'm going to hold out the hope the harem doesn't take up too much screen time. I've tried Path of Ascension, Forge, and many other major english cultivation recs.
Heart of Cultivation by jacobk seemed good, but it's abandoned and it became clear the author loved to lean heavily on the humorous misunderstanding trope to drive the plot forward, which got annoying for me. To be fair, Virtuous Sons does something similar, but it doesn't seem to dominate the story in the same way. It helps that the setting of VS is more fleshed out and interesting, while there are also a bunch of interesting characters.
May try Memories of the Fall again, if that rewrite ever finishes.
Was never a big light novel reader/isekai anime watcher. so maybe I was less cynical about Ave Xia Rem Y. My first major exposure to harems in media was translations and serials on RR. Did still avoid the story for a full year though, until one day I just went "screw it. why not?"
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FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Xianxia tends to have harems, not because of any inherent link between Chinese internal alchemy and harems but because Xianxia (or at least the Xianxia we all read) tends to be power fantasies, and having a harem is a pretty common power fantasy. Especially, I imagine, in China given what their male/female gender split looks like.
As for Ave Rem Xia Re, so far the 'harem' consists of the girl he was in an arranged marriage with telling the protagonist that she doesn't mind if he dates other people before she goes away to spend the rest of her life in an all women sect (and in her eyes probably never see the protagonist again). He then waits a bunch of time, but when he joins his new sect (following the invasion) then begins dating the most terrifying woman he can find.
As harems go it's pretty wholesome so far, and the story is generally good enough that I'm prepared to not be as hair trigger to drop as I normally am about harems.
As for Ave Rem Xia Re, so far the 'harem' consists of the girl he was in an arranged marriage with telling the protagonist that she doesn't mind if he dates other people before she goes away to spend the rest of her life in an all women sect (and in her eyes probably never see the protagonist again). He then waits a bunch of time, but when he joins his new sect (following the invasion) then begins dating the most terrifying woman he can find.
As harems go it's pretty wholesome so far, and the story is generally good enough that I'm prepared to not be as hair trigger to drop as I normally am about harems.
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- Location
- Washington
I mean we also can't forget that the historical periods it's attempting to ape it's also just... a thing. There's a reason why it's usually not just the protagonist building up a harem like in other genre power fantasies, other powerful figures in Xianxia also have harems.
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- Elsewhere
There are a couple other reasons a lot of Xianxia tends towards harems.
Women are less likely to be considered a threat/rival to the male MC, which means if they accumulate followers that make admiring noises at all their cool moves, they tend to be female or otherwise non-competitive.
Webnovels tend towards a long, long, series of mini arcs, which lends itself to a constant accumulation of new powers/treasures/women rather than continuing the old ones, that might not fit the new arc.
Women are less likely to be considered a threat/rival to the male MC, which means if they accumulate followers that make admiring noises at all their cool moves, they tend to be female or otherwise non-competitive.
Webnovels tend towards a long, long, series of mini arcs, which lends itself to a constant accumulation of new powers/treasures/women rather than continuing the old ones, that might not fit the new arc.
The frustrating thing about xianxia harems is that historical Chinese imperial harem politics can be absolutely fascinating, but xianxia stories rarely do anything with their harems. At most, the MC's father has a harem and that undermines the MC's position within their clan, but the MC's family problems never last that long.
Xiran Jay Zhao has a two-part video series here and here about the rise to power of Wu Zetian, China's only female emperor and the inspiration for their sci-fi novel's protagonist, and the gigabrain 13D chess moves in the imperial harem are fucking wild.
Xiran Jay Zhao has a two-part video series here and here about the rise to power of Wu Zetian, China's only female emperor and the inspiration for their sci-fi novel's protagonist, and the gigabrain 13D chess moves in the imperial harem are fucking wild.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
I'm going to lay a guess that the deep focus on that stuff comes in the distaff side of the "translated chinese webnovels" pool.
The problem with harems in Chinese WNs is that, metaphorically speaking, the harem is just there to jack off the MC. All the members are jade beauties of "high" status/talent who are amazed by the MC. If they're in love with the MC while the MC is still weak, they can't do anything to stop low level scrubs from picking on/trying to kill the MC because that would get in the way of the MC showing off, though when the MC is strong it is possible for a harem member to be relevant to the plot by being a damsel in distress who the MC saves. And the whole MC cultivates faster than everyone else thing when all the conflicts revolve around cultivation level can lead to the situation where non-MC characters only have the capability to be plot-relevant outside of the damsel case for a limited period of time, with a sudden reveal of some hidden bloodline/talent temporarily extending that period.
Like, the broken engagement trope at the beginning is just the same principle applied in the opposite direction. The MC starts out as a scrub so it would only be natural for him to be rejected, and the MC ending up OP makes the choice to reject him an objectively wrong one because whether or not to be in a relationship with someone only depends on whether or not they're OP.
Like, the broken engagement trope at the beginning is just the same principle applied in the opposite direction. The MC starts out as a scrub so it would only be natural for him to be rejected, and the MC ending up OP makes the choice to reject him an objectively wrong one because whether or not to be in a relationship with someone only depends on whether or not they're OP.
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- Elsewhere
Which would be hilarious if they actually looked in to it.
"You stole my girlfriend!"
"Oh? I recall it was her idea..."
"It couldn't be, she loves me!"
"Hmm, maybe you can help me with something."
"Why would I want to help you!?"
"Simple. I have a problem. As a wealthy Young Master, it's always a question if women are attracted to me because I'm awesome, or if they are simply gold-diggers trying to exploit my wealth. I propose a test. She is currently in closed door cultivation. When she exits, we can put on a little play. You've ascended quite rapidly, and even become the direct disciple of an Elder. We will emphasize that, pretending that you've even pulled ahead of me. If she is truly awestruck by me, she will stay loyal. If she is just choosing for her own benefit, then she will switch."
"And how do I know you'll accept it when she chooses me?"
"Why would I oppose it? If she's just using me for resources, I want to get rid of her. You'll be doing me a favor. Either I don't need to cling to her, or I don't want to cling to her. There's plenty of gold-diggers to choose from."
***
It was only weeks later that OP HeroFace finally realizes the cunning plot of De'vius YungMaster.
By depriving him of a fight, he had not only prevented OP from truly showing his awesomeness, he had also stripped away the validation granted by beating an enemy by force and taking what he wants.
It emphasized that her desires, and choices, actually mattered... and she hadn't chosen him originally.
Now he was faced with the horrifying possibility that she might make choices in the future too, and she might not always agree with him.
How was he supposed to be in a relationship with someone who might disagree with him?
Compromise?!
That's not the way the Law of the Jungle works!
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FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I love the idea of Young Master D'Vius, whose secret superpower is that he understands that other people have opinions and agency too.
OP McFacepuncher goes through training from hell to be able to punch his problems away after E'Vile Villin doesn't knowtow eight times to his dog, meanwhile D'Vius is like 'yeah we had a chat, and it turned out that our issues with each other weren't actually all that big - it's just a dog man'.
Because D'Vius has been raised to be the Clan Heir since he was born and there's more to running a clan than just being able to punch good.
OP McFacepuncher goes through training from hell to be able to punch his problems away after E'Vile Villin doesn't knowtow eight times to his dog, meanwhile D'Vius is like 'yeah we had a chat, and it turned out that our issues with each other weren't actually all that big - it's just a dog man'.
Because D'Vius has been raised to be the Clan Heir since he was born and there's more to running a clan than just being able to punch good.
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True IRL, not so much in Xianxia settings.
- Location
- New York
In a setting where the guy he's succeeding might be immortal? All being the Clan Heir guarantees are top-quality drugs, cultivation, and access to the "do you know who my parent is !?!?!?" card when you get yourself into trouble. Oh, and a high-level babysitter.
Good behavior is entirely optional, sadly.
- Location
- Cyberspace
On the other hand, when you see the old master get stronger, they tend to be less interested in management and more interested in pursuing ever-higher levels of power, with their power base funding their efforts.
So why not stick your heir with the job? He'll be your filter to deal with the non-cultivation issues in life.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I mean you can definitely write it that way, and a lot of Xianxia does, but it's kinda uninteresting.
On the other hand there's plenty of things for the heir to do even when their parents are still around. Young Master Vius of Clan De has been raised to inherit, yes, but also as a trusted problem solver for his clan. The Clan Head and his wife might be immortal, yes, but there's only two of them and Clan De is big.
Besides, immortals do occasionally die, ascend, or (more commonly) take long cultivation breaks. They need someone to leave in charge whilst they're off cultivating. And yeah, it might be a long long time before Young Master Vius's parents either ascend or die and leave the Clan to him but Vius is going to be an immortal too some day. He can afford to take the long view.
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Not saying xianxia harems are good or anything, but the reasons xianxia harems (and most harem stories) doesn't deal with harem politics are simple: the target audience aren't interested in such things, so the authors don't bother. If you want imperial harem politics, you should not look for it in xianxia, but rather in historical fictions, there are a lot of such stories with female protagonist in imperial harem, usually by female authors for female audience. (of course, how good the politics are varies a lot)
Also, the vast majority of authors (I am including professional authors here) lack the ability to write convincing politics.
- Location
- New York
The stereotypical setup is hardcore cultivating reserve elder, clan head/sect leader actually runs things, young master coasts off clan backing and competes with their peers. There's presumably some point in time where the young master stops being an ass and starts being useful, but I don't recall ever seeing it (usually they all die, starting with the young master).
Besides, if we're talking about the long view the prime cultivation age is when you're young. Learning how to manage the clan or solve problems? That can be done at any time and is arguably much easier when you're older depending on how much cultivation boosts mental processing ability. A parent busy with clan management or cultivation might only have the spare time to pay attention to the "be at realm X by age Y or suck" parameters, but as long as those are met they can solve the other issues (if they're even considered issues) on their own time.
This behavior only becomes problematic when some Heaven-Defying MC shows up and the young master starts a blood feud, but unless that happens they can freely enjoy their bratty childhood until their busy parents decide to beat some sense into them (they certainly won't let anyone else do it, not to their own child).
- Location
- Washington
Honestly "the moment their busy parents decide to finally beat some sense into them" sounds like an interesting premise for a Xianxia story.
- Location
- Nunya, Arizona
I wish I could remember examples, but I'm like 95% sure I've seen that general plot (arrogant young master type getting reigned in by older master) used at least four or five different times (which would make it pretty rare, because over the years I've read at least several dozen stories where "young master type" is a relevant archetype, but still).
You do occasionally see a xianxia (adjacent) writer have a old master see what a young master is doing and go, "Wait, what the hell do you think you're doing you suicidal little shit" and then, just... do something about it. Without either of them getting brutally murdered by a rampaging golden thumb'd menace. It can be a pretty neat thing to encounter, iirc.
You do occasionally see a xianxia (adjacent) writer have a old master see what a young master is doing and go, "Wait, what the hell do you think you're doing you suicidal little shit" and then, just... do something about it. Without either of them getting brutally murdered by a rampaging golden thumb'd menace. It can be a pretty neat thing to encounter, iirc.
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- Washington
Oh yeah I've seen it but generally you see it from the perspective of the older master or a third party observer. I'm more proposing "young master learning to be less of a dipshit" as the protagonist.
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- Elsewhere
This thread is for talking about Xianxia stories.
Not some genre that includes that "character development" nonsense.