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Xander [Quest], Thread Fourteen: You Could Use the «Luck Bonus» Right About Now...

GhostKing666 has a point. While the ritual itself was designed by simple mages it is powered by fragments* of the souls of semi-divine beings. That probably puts it above DBZ wishes in power wise and below the Triforce but over all probably retains the same position since DBZ and Buffy wishes are probably close in power but lacking in the 60 year build up required.

*We know it can't really run off the souls of Heroic Spirits since that would remove them from the throne and Servants can't contain the full soul anyway.

Personally I suspect that what actually happens is a fragment is called down and imprinted into the vessel and when the Servant is destroyed that fragment is reunited with the rest of it's soul in the Throne. However all of the Servant's memories/experiences/growth/ect are consumed by the grail hence why they don't remember the experience.
 
Dummy045 said:
For the most part you are right, but certain skills would be better suited for direct training, like the Five Elements Style Martial Art. That is something that can only be learned from a teacher, and not through fighting other monsters.
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Still not worth it. IIRC we have only 4 timeskip training slots at present. 1 of them is locked with Briar's Priority. One has to be dedicated to Spiritual Prowess to suppress PLE. One has to be dedicated to Mental so we can build up more training slots. That leaves us with a single slot to train with. There are very few sub-skills we can't train "in the field" as it were (a dedicated anti-PLE subskill among them) and I would contest the worth of many of them. As far as the Five Elements Style, do note that we ranked up our Sword skill just by using a sword in the field, without any formal training. Also note that we train with Lu-Sensei multiple times per week automatically; the skill ranking up in the field could just reflect us putting our behind-the-scenes training into practical use. We just have too much to do to spend time training subskills that we can rank up faster in the field anyways; we need to have an extra slot or two available to grab Priorities or build magic items.

As far as Magic goes, I'd like to push for us to try to put yearly slots into the Prowess at least twice once we have a teacher so we can rank-up to B-rank. We haven't had much difficulty ranking up our sub-skills in magic; we rock most non-Elemental spells at C or D-rank. With B-Rank magic and C-Rank subskills, we can cast 7th-level spells off the cuff, 8th level if we have time to cast them as a Ritual. If we continue to be this "busy" in between training times, I can definitely see us hitting C-Rank in all the different schools of magic in the next few years, with the most common schools hitting B-Rank themselves (say hello to 8th level spells off the cuff and 9th level with ritual casting!) That's enough power to casually smash most Buffyverse enemies into the dirt, short of Glory or the First Evil, and give even Glory a run for her money.
Judge Mental said:
*snip*
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Hey Judge, how are you treating Divine magic in this quest? I know that entity/external magic is a thing because this is Buffyverse, but is that granted as arcane power or divine power (Alex vs. Willow vs. Dark Willow vs. Ethan Rayne)? is Divine casting granted to persons with high-ranked Favor, or is something else required?

Also, about the Ward again-- is it portable enough that if we spent a few years warding the house and then had to move, we could move the ward to the new home, or is it relatively fixed?
 
Forgothrax said:
Hey Judge, how are you treating Divine magic in this quest? I know that entity/external magic is a thing because this is Buffyverse, but is that granted as arcane power or divine power (Alex vs. Willow vs. Dark Willow vs. Ethan Rayne)? is Divine casting granted to persons with high-ranked Favor, or is something else required?

Also, about the Ward again-- is it portable enough that if we spent a few years warding the house and then had to move, we could move the ward to the new home, or is it relatively fixed?
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This doesn't answer all your questions but Judge did comment on Divine stuff before.

There's actually a google doc floating around somewhere with quotes from Judge on it, but my computer crashed so I don't have a link to it anymore.
Judge Mental said:
OOC: Current vote is a 5/4 split between "walk slow" and "fly slow." I guess I'll wait a bit.

OOC: Ranks of divine favor reflect how important the subject is to the deity in question, and break down roughly as follows:

No Rank: You're pretty much a non-entity in the eyes of the Goddess, moving background scenery at best or an obstacle for killing! at worst. You don't know her name or just don't care, and she feels the same way about you.

F-Rank: Non-worshipper who is related to a member of the faith OR whose actions have benefitted the faith on a local scale (like a single town). You're on the Goddess's radar, if only just. You (probably) know her name and she deigns to admit that you exist and maybe, possibly shouldn't be smote for getting in the way. Unless you make a pest of yourself, that is.

E-rank: Typical lay-worshipper level, also that of "allied" non-worshippers with regional influence. If you are a worshipper, religion is more a thing you do because it's expected of you than because you really believe, and the Goddess responds in kind - she'll send a hero to save your nation if needed, but you, personally, are on your own. On the upside, smiting is unlikely, as much because you know not to get in the way as because the Goddess values your existence.

D-rank: Affirmed worshipper, low-ranking clergy, allied non-worshipper with national influence. If you're a worshipper, your faith is an important part of your life, though only part, and you in turn are an important part of the Goddess's church - but only part. Minor miracles may occur on your behalf when you are in serious need, and you would have to seriously screw up to merit a smiting. Even then, you'd get a pre-smite warning. Personal faith notwithstanding, most Kings of Hyrule were in this category by dint of pure political value; the ones that actually had a Zelda around ranked up due to their importance to her.

C-rank: Zealous worshipper, mid-ranking clergy, lesser chosen ones, allied non-worshipper with worldwide influence. If you're a worshipper, you're the sort for whom your faith is your life, and your life is the Goddess's; this makes you valuable to her. She knows your name and is actively looking out for you, sending miracles when you are in need. Most divine spellcasters get this rank, as do Slayers (with the Powers That Be) and some other champions.

B-rank: High-ranking clergy, saints, lesser divine servitors, greater chosen ones, allied non-worshipper with influence on multiple worlds. Something you are or do is benefitting the Goddess in a way or to a degree that cannot be easily replaced, and so she takes measures to ensure she's not going to lose you any time soon. Unsolicited visits from divine messengers are a thing, as are other major miracles. Buffy has this rank of pull with the Powers. It's also the minimum rank a D&D divine caster would need to perform a successful Miracle.

A-rank: The leader(s) of the faithful, greater divine servitors, legendary chosen ones. You're sort of irreplacable, and the Goddess has your back all the time and is willing to make personal sacrifices to help you out. Link and Zelda have this in every incarnation. Ganondorf started out with it in his first life, but we all know how that went.

EX-rank: Somebody the Goddess would risk her own life for. The backstory of Skyward Sword suggests that the original Hero was this important to Hylia, although he may not have started out as such.

OOC: Yes to both! :D
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Dummy045 said:
Again, I agree with almost everything that you have said, except the assumption about being able to increase the Five Element Style. My reasoning is that it is a specific style, unlike generic sword use. I have no doubt that we could increase a brawling skill by fighting, but I do not see how we could justify learning new style specific elements to fighting without a teacher of that style. However, I don't believe it has been indicated either way, so lets ask Judge.

@Judge -

Can we level up Five Element Style with out having dedicated actions to learning it like other skills?
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We already did, we leveled it up by showing it in front of Alexs parents.
Zelda promptly scurries over, pokes the mote, and gigglingly pronounces it warm and fuzzy.

"It'th like Alexth, only tiny."

She's more right than she knows. And also embarrassing - no doubt EXACTLY as much as she means to be.

Gained Hand-to-Hand (Five Elements Style) F+++

"And that" - your father points at the ball - "isn't magic?"

"No, it's not. It's supernatural, but it's not magic."

"...I'm not sure I get the difference," he admits.
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Dummy045 said:
That increase was not significant. My point is that in real life you cant figure out the high end ins and outs of a martial arts style from practicing the basics of that style. If you do so and keep at it, you will get your own style in the end. That was my point about a brawling. I was asking for confirmation that this is not the case, and that it can indeed be leveled up without studying (and a good teacher) unlike real life.
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Not significant? I'm not sure I follow how you work that out. It's no more or less significant than any other + to a skill we've gained. We've seen nothing that suggests any skills operate differently on how to obtain increases to them from usage.
 
Under the threat of sounding like wanking fanboy, and eternal shame of delurking only to argue about obscure mechanics...
Judge Mental said:
OOC: Fate-style wishes are the weakest. The Heaven's Feel ritual was designed by a small group of mortal magi working with a second-rate magic system and no divine input (Zelretch doesn't count, no matter what he says), and as noted, it has one of the longest charge times and the possibility of a nascent evil god actively working to ensure that all wishes are realized in the worst way possible.
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Sorry, no.

There are two moments in your chain of logic what irk me in specific, beyond the conclusion in general, especially when I read descriptions of other contenders.

First is somewhat laughable, but bear with me: considering what at least one direct participant of the ritual, who then sacrificed herself to became a core of the system was called an Archmagus, saying "Mortal Magi" doesn't really quite works. It's like saying what Karsus, Reistlin or Elminster are "Mortal Magi".

I understand; you are comparing mortal (if exceptional, or not even that if you deny the first point) magic with outright divine powers, and it's logical to default to "Weaker than Divine source" in that case - I see from where you are coming from, really, mortal magic is not supposed to be compared to Creator God(s) own McGuffins - but well, there goes the second point.

Saying "Mortal Magi" is a mistake because it's misses the entire point and mechanics behind the ritual - Heaven Feel is a classic example of Epic Level Magi doing what they do best - cheating and stealing God's fire*. They use already mentioned semi-divine beings as a stepping stone to tap into even greater - no, outright omnipotent multiversal source of... everything to accomplish their goals.*

Which is directly answers "Why it so stupidly powerful if it's created by mere mortals" questions. Because it's a cheating device of cheating mages, who cheat.

Succesfully. If with a stupidly big "Horribly Right" potential even discounting whole "God of Evil" debacle.

The closest example would be Karsus stealing the position of the Mystra, with all secondary qualities like dying horribly if you didn't thought about little details like "What's next?" or "Just what (And how exactly?*) exactly you want from me, mate?".

It's unstable, prone to gettings possessed*, takes a longest time to charge - but it is no way "Weaker". The example of the fully charged wish is Fourth Magic, which is one of the greatest forms of immortality seen in fiction. Wiping humanity from the map, or, you know, changing the laws of the universe on the table, too.

I cannot judge the "Power" of other wish granting devices fully, but if it compared to the examples like "50-years life extension", or to the "Easily Broken Reality Warp And It Requires Upkeep" it's not the Holy Grail what is falling short in terms of permanence and effect achieved.

Tl;dr - weakest is the wrong world. Most potentially disastrous, barbaric and unwieldy it is, certainly, which is the real weakness in comparsion to everything else. The "Why" - obviously - above.


*"God's fire" doesn't work, as it does taps into completely different and arguably greater kind of power, but, meh. Details.

*I am not sure how it's supposed to work in your fused cosmology, but, well, yeah. It's supposed to tap into pretty much the hightest power there is. But well, again. Details.

*Too much cheating.

Now, excuse me while I go back to lurking and proceed living with my shame from now on, and forever.:(
 
Forgothrax said:
Still not worth it. IIRC we have only 4 timeskip training slots at present. 1 of them is locked with Briar's Priority. One has to be dedicated to Spiritual Prowess to suppress PLE. One has to be dedicated to Mental so we can build up more training slots. That leaves us with a single slot to train with. There are very few sub-skills we can't train "in the field" as it were (a dedicated anti-PLE subskill among them) and I would contest the worth of many of them.
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Something to learn faster would be a good sub-skill, and would quickly pay off massively.
 
where does the Hogyoku sit on the wish list levels? Because if we keep having relations with the Bleach crew Alex is going to have to deal with that eventually.
 
I think to a large degree the +'s we gain from votes rather than the annual are consolidating what we've picked up as it comes together for us.

Though I think I get what's being aimed at too.

For example could we declare that during the year we're going to make a point of running and jogging everywhere we can when out and about to get our Running Speed and Endurance up despite not giving them a slot directly.
 
windlich said:
where does the Hogyoku sit on the wish list levels? Because if we keep having relations with the Bleach crew Alex is going to have to deal with that eventually.
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Wasn't that thing made by a single reaper?
A super-genius one, granted... but it shouldn't match up to a guardian of a whole planet or a creator goddess trinity.
 
Do you think Taki or our ninja friends fathers sent us a level. Also has our magic skills advanced to the level where we can just stick japanese in our head?
 
Krain said:
Wasn't that thing made by a single reaper?
A super-genius one, granted... but it shouldn't match up to a guardian of a whole planet or a creator goddess trinity.
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Two were made by both Sosuke Aizen and Kisuke Urahara, and then fused together to create the final item.
 
Krain said:
Wasn't that thing made by a single reaper?
A super-genius one, granted... but it shouldn't match up to a guardian of a whole planet or a creator goddess trinity.
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It does grant something close to perfect invulnerability from mortal and spiritual damage by healing it faster than it happens and 'evolving' the bearer. They couldn't actually kill Aizen even after Ichigo beat him down with a 'suicide' technique.
 
windlich said:
where does the Hogyoku sit on the wish list levels? Because if we keep having relations with the Bleach crew Alex is going to have to deal with that eventually.
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Oh god, the Hogyoku manifests the desires of the people around it so long as they have the power to enforce their will on it.

Forget Navi's mirror, putting Alex in proximity to that thing is liable to manifest a fully powered avatar of Ganondorf if not resurrect him outright.

...Which would be a really cool ending to that arc considering we're liable to be near endgame levels of power by then. At the least it would be really amusing to see Aizen double take at someone coming out of nowhere and stealing his precious rock.

I am now imaging Ganondorf pulling his trick from Twilight Princess and possessing Aizen to form a fusion boss.
 
windlich said:
Two were made by both Sosuke Aizen and Kisuke Urahara, and then fused together to create the final item.
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Ah, fair enough.
Hm, well, might be better than the Dragonballs, but should still be inferior to the Triforce.
Madfish said:
It does grant something close to perfect invulnerability from mortal and spiritual damage by healing it faster than it happens and 'evolving' the bearer. They couldn't actually kill Aizen even after Ichigo beat him down with a 'suicide' technique.
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Being unable to be permanently put down... I think that was just from the Triforce of Power (to be honest, I don't want all of these things talked about... I just want the Triforce of Power, so we can be Din's Chosen, and make her happy after all the shit she went through with multiple Ganondorf's - and, yes, I want to play with that sort of Power)
Cytokinesis said:
Oh god, the Hogyoku manifests the desires of the people around it so long as they have the power to enforce their will on it.

Forget Navi's mirror, putting Alex in proximity to that thing is liable to manifest a fully powered avatar of Ganondorf if not resurrect him outright.

...Which would be a really cool ending to that arc considering we're liable to be near endgame levels of power by then. At the least it would be really amusing to see Aizen double take at someone coming out of nowhere and stealing his precious rock.
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If Ganondorf is going to do anything Bleach-related, it should be him strangling Yhwach, IMO.
I think Judge agrees with me as well, as he talked about Ganondorf 'choking a bitch' earlier.
 
Madfish said:
I think to a large degree the +'s we gain from votes rather than the annual are consolidating what we've picked up as it comes together for us.

Though I think I get what's being aimed at too.

For example could we declare that during the year we're going to make a point of running and jogging everywhere we can when out and about to get our Running Speed and Endurance up despite not giving them a slot directly.
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We want to pick up parkour as well.
 
Nightblade said:
We want to pick up parkour as well.
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I did think about adding that as a further example of something that can be learned while doing something else (or travelling a to b) or during quiet moments like sewing/embroidery, which I'd really like us to pick up for use with item crafting.
 
windlich said:
where does the Hogyoku sit on the wish list levels? Because if we keep having relations with the Bleach crew Alex is going to have to deal with that eventually.
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The Hogyoku never does anything truly exceptional in terms of reality warping at best you can say it acts as a potential significant boost to a single person.
 
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