Xander [Quest], Thread Fourteen: You Could Use the «Luck Bonus» Right About Now...

Cytokinesis said:
I'm really leaning towards confessing at least part of the danger here, though I could be convinced otherwise.

Why? Well, it's a matter of Courage.

::Snip::
Actually I think this is a matter of Wisdom.

We're not out to 'prove' anything here and our parents are just finding out about how different the world is. If we tell them now that we've lied to them about the danger we've faced (and we have by orders of magnitude), not just not gotten to discussing it but actively mislead we have serious problems.

First they're going to feel justifiably upset about not being able to trust us and that we don't trust them. This is true and for good reasons which is why we're easing them into this. We need them to keep trusting us so we can keep them safe something that's going to be next to impossible if they're treating us like an actual 8 year old.

We're walking a knife edge with our Youth against us here. If our parents think we're going our fighting monsters they're going to be terrified, both for us and because of us. Their not going to be rational about it because two important drives will be at work: "Our little boy is fighting monsters. He could die and we wouldn't know why or how or even help." and "Our child is a killer. He has powers we don't understand what if he turns them on ourselves or Zelda? We couldn't stop him and he's already admitted he's done it before!" (Moblin 'mind control')

At best we will end up on restriction, likely grounded, at a time we can't afford it with the Eclipse coming up and what ever the messages from Japan portend. This is a time we need their absolute trust as we're going to likely need to visit Japan by ourselves by mystic means at some point. Spooking them means they'll say no which means we'll be going behind their back and given the time frames involved almost certainly get caught creating a viscous cycle of distrust.

At worst they'll try and 'protect' us. They'll ban us from seeing Sensei and likely Cordelia, try and remove Briar and try and prevent us from pursuing magic which again means going behind they're back and eventually getting caught with the same results.

An the absolute worst case scenario (one incredibly unlikely unless we fuck up epically but still possible) we generate enough fear that we're 'banished' from our home. Either directly or because it's the only way to get round restriction placed on us without mind control or becoming a greater monster in truth.

Either way there will be more questions asked that could end up implying or flat out revealing that we're a killer if mishandled. Stepping into a Minefield without damn good reason isn't Courageous, it crosses the line into stupid.

So what do we gain by a full reveal? We're not going to impress anyone other than with our luck. Our parents will be frightened and Sensei will consider us acting short sightedly. We come over extremely mature, between Honest and Fidel Piety we basically come across as an adult. Coming clean here will just undermine everything else we have to say.

We need the Path of Wisdom here. There will be time when we can admit the full truth if it becomes necessary but words spoken can't be taken back (okay they can but see the closing paragraph about Power).

There is a time for Courage, a time for Wisdom and a time for power. This is not a Courageous action, it's short sighted. We could make it a demonstration of Power in that we could basically No Sell anything they want to do to us, pleasing Din with our determination but the price of the action is far to high. We'd be acting exactly like Ganondorf would, though fear and intimidation. It's not someone we want to be, both on the Hell Mouth and because doing it to our parents and by proxy our little sister and Briar is disgusting.

This is a conversational direction that needs headed off and unless someone come up with a better way of phrasing it I stand by my original vote because leaving something like that to luck is stupid.


Edit for a point I'd missed:
Cytokinesis said:
This also serves as an introduction to supernatural beasties and dangers. I get the feeling that Judge had our mom, who is more likely to react badly to thoughts of danger as we saw last night, get out of the conversation for a reason
It's a terrible introduction though. We can bring up, or far better have Sensei bring up life experiences as and when necessary but we need to approach the subject calmly and with as few emotional hot buttons in play against us as possible.

How would you react if you discovered that demons and 'super powered' lunatics had marked your child for death for some non-understandable perceived slight?

Compare it to how you'd react after being rationally informed with evidence that there was a greater world beyond your previous experience and that there are some basic safety precautions to take the same way you don't step onto a busy road. Simple things like don't give your full name to anyone verbally or signed and don't invite anyone in after dark.
 
[X] Silently pray that Lu-sensei will not talk about Hawaiian Sorcerer Guy!

Edit: I figure it's probably going to come out anyway, this way at least we avoid the stick of Enlightenment for trying to hide things.
 
Mizuki_Stone said:
Edit: I figure it's probably going to come out anyway, this way at least we avoid the stick of Enlightenment for trying to hide things.
Sensei is not going to 'Enlighten' us here and now.

We're the best judge of what our family will accept at the moment because he doesn't know them. He might 'Enlighten' us later if he thinks our reasoning was rash or poor but we actually have a damn good reason for understating things just now.
 
[x] Plan Bigger Squid.

Under Lu-sensei's silent, non-judgemental gaze, you find yourself unable to continue hold back the entire truth of the situation with Arrogante from your Dad.

Gained Filial Piety D

"I... may have understated how big of an octopus it was," you admit, rubbing the back of your head and not looking directly at your father.

There is a paternal sigh. "By how much?"

"Maybe... ten feet? Plus another eight or so in the tentacles?"

The living room falls silent again. "That's... really not what I would describe as a 'pet,' Alex," your father finally manages.

"From what I was told, 'guard beast' would be more appropriate," Lu-sensei chips in.

"Sort of a big, nasty aquatic pitbull?" your father guesses.

"If pitbulls were crossbred with electric eels, then yes."

"...should have got a beer," you hear your father mutter. "Okay, I have to ask. What kind of person can even keep a thing like that around in the first place, and what happened when they 'came to complain' about Alex picking a fight with it?"

"The beast's master was a rather territorial and rude sorcerer," Lu-sensei explains. "He managed to track Alex back to the suite where we were staying, and he and I had words - mostly about respect, discipline, and what constituted appropriate punishment for young, errant students. I didn't much care for his tone or his demands to start with, and when he tried to force his point by unleashing a pack of little monsters on me and attempting to set me on fire, I rather lost my patience."

"I can see why."

"Hmmm. In any case, our argument woke up Alex, who came to see what was going on and had the good sense to stay out of it, right up until our visitor pulled out the equivalent of an incendiary grenade. At that point, Alex cast a spell that threw the rude fellow out over the balcony he'd so graciously put himself in front of. The fire-bomb spell went off just after that, but the sorcerer had already teleported to safety, and no damage was done in any case."

Your father nods slowly. "Is that kind of ability common with magic?"

"Eh, so-so." Lu-sensei holds out a hand and waggles it. "Putting together something that goes 'boom' is not a particularly difficult task, regardless of the methods you're using. Doing it with magic, on the spot and as quickly as that sorcerer did, does require a certain amount of talent and experience."

"Could you do that, Alex?"

You could, actually. The Spell of Fireball is just about ubiquitous among battle-mages, and for good reason. While it's not always the best answer, not always even a good one, it's fast, easy to use, gets good bang for the magical buck, and can solve a lot of problems in short order. Plus, you know, fire. You could probably cast a Fireball as powerful as Hawaiian Sorcerer Guy's, too, though you might have to overcharge it.

But do you really want to tell your father any of this?

[ ] Admit the truth.
[ ] Fudge the truth.
[ ] Deny the truth.
 
[x] Say something quick, before Sensei starts talking about Hawaiian Sorcerer Guy!
- [x] Apologize and confess about how dangerous the octopus was. Explain your reasoning both for fighting it and not explaining it earlier. Don't say anything about the Hawaiian Sorcerer Guy just yet.
Honesty is the best policy in some cases.
edit: Damn.
 
[X] Admit the truth.
- [X] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic. He has seen you do a Ki version on the tape though.
- [X] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- [X] Use examples of helpful and beneficial spells for each school.
Magic is dangerous. Better he realizes this now.
edit: But it's right that truth is in the eye of the beholder, and we have our strengths and weaknesses
 
Filial Piety: D. You have respect for your forebears, and are willing to go to them for advice with problems you can't solve on your own. This reputation earns you a moderate bonus on social interactions with your elders, but also incurs a minor penalty when socializing with your peers, as talking to funky old people isn't cool in most circles these days. Disobedience or disrespect towards your seniors will still reduce your ranks in this skill.
Well.

[X] Fudge the truth.

Fudge is delicious.
 
[X] Admit the truth.

This could go either way. Either our parents freak out about us being able to do that, and we can't train without hiding it, or they're relieved that we can defend ourselves. Here's hoping it's the second, or somewhere in-between the two.
 
Judge Mental said:
I sort of can and probably should argue with that because at least partially you are wrong, but that "Don't be an asshole" part of me holds me back from continuing the debate when you clearly want it stopped yesterday and "Somebody is wrong on internet" is not exactly great reason to be That Guy.

So, yeah, back to lurking. I sort of wanted to contribute something useful for taking your time with those longposts, but at this point besides throwing my vote into the bin I have nothing, and you have enough of that. Sorry about that.
 
[x] Admit the truth
- [x] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic.
- [x] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
 
I'm tempted to go for Fudge, but I don't see a huge point in doing so right now.

[x] Admit the truth
- [x] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic. You're more focused on magic to make things better, protect them, travel, and to help you learn.
- [x] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- - [x] Describe examples of helpful and noncombat spells for each school.


This segues into a different discussion and I've been wanting to explain that for a while.
Madfish said:
You have several good points, but I'm not not entirely displeased with this outcome yet. We had a pretty major difference of opinion because my stance was based on "Let us trust in Dad, and not keep lying out of fear that the worst will happen." and yours was based on avoiding risking those consequences in the first place. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with this and I may have liked to have had more discussion about it (not that I dislike waking up to an update, which is always great), but nothing we can do about it now.

I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, especially since I'm usually the cautious one in these debates, but I feel we had reason to believe this could turn out well. I'm not usually a proponent for the truth, but our dad has been incredibly good about things so far and even now his reaction wasn't terrible - it was mostly what I expected.
 
Cytokinesis said:
I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, especially since I'm usually the cautious one in these debates, but I feel we had reason to believe this could turn out well. I'm not usually a proponent for the truth, but our dad has been incredibly good about things so far and even now his reaction wasn't terrible - it was mostly what I expected.
It was rather better than I expected though mainly because Sensei was good about putting the sorcerer across and I think because mum wasn't there to ask a more pointed question. Just a feeling that she'd be the one to ask the more dangerous questions.
It's also a mistake to think be certain he's telling it well, remember is a conceal your emotions type. I'd like to get a low level empathy up if we get a chance.

If it had been any other time I probably would have agree'd with you or at least disagreed less strongly. The idea of restrictions when we've got so much going on is a big big deal and one she should remain wary of.

I think I'll agree with your vote here with a some small changes and a small addition

[X] Admit the truth
- [X] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic. He has seen you do a Ki version on the tape though.
- [X] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- [X] For enchantment examples make sure to include the less 'rapey' spells like Sleep, Keep Watch, Bestow Skill and Hold along with the Inspire type spells like Heroism as well as Charm. If/when he reacts badly charm make a point how they can be used to help people with addictions keep straight.
 
Madfish said:
It was rather better than I expected though mainly because Sensei was good about putting the sorcerer across and I think because mum wasn't there to ask a more pointed question. Just a feeling that she'd be the one to ask the more dangerous questions.

It's also a mistake to think be certain he's telling it well, remember is a conceal your emotions type. I'd like to get a low level empathy up if we get a chance.
Well I felt more reasonable doing it because mom wasn't there, but that's a damn good point about concealing his emotions that I hadn't considered.

I do wish we had more time to debate about it, but hopefully this will have people speak up next time if they disagree with the way the votes are going. Nobody can consider every angle and having someone point out what is being missed can be really helpful for the votes.
If it had been any other time I probably would have agree'd with you or at least disagreed less strongly. The idea of restrictions when we've got so much going on is a big big deal and one she should remain wary of.
Definitely true, my hope is just that we can have a serious talk with our father and not just push it off till later. Given how close in contact they are with us, and the fact that we still need to discuss Sunnydale, they're going to find out eventually.

I do hope I haven't made a major miscalculation, but I'm just hoping that Judge's hint with the whole Trial of Courage applies in this situation. Misjudging the situation and reactions to what we do is our biggest hurdle.
I think I'll agree with your vote here with a some small changes and a small addition

[X] Admit the truth
- [X] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic. He has seen you do a Ki version on the tape though.
- [X] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- [X] For enchantment examples make sure to include the less 'rapey' spells like Sleep, Keep Watch, Bestow Skill and Hold along with the Inspire type spells like Heroism as well as Charm. If/when he reacts badly charm make a point how they can be used to help people with addictions keep straight.
Well he was asking about incendiary grenades and we've never done that. Even for Fire Elementalism in specific we haven't cast that many spells with it. Our actual skill is only slightly better than our worst non-elementalism spell aside from the boost from the Heart of Fire. The last line is a good clarification thouh - I've put

- - [] Use examples of helpful and noncombat spells for each school.

Into my vote.
 
I think changing the subject is probably better. Something like:

[ ] You might be able to, but you've never tried. You're more focused on magic to make things better, protect them, travel, and to help you learn.
- [ ] Take the opportunity to move the discussion to how not all magic is equal
 
Alratan said:
I think changing the subject is probably better. Something like:

[ ] You might be able to, but you've never tried. You're more focused on magic to make things better, protect them, travel, and to help you learn.
- [ ] Take the opportunity to move the discussion to how not all magic is equal
I don't really object to that, but I don't see it as much different than voting for 'Fudge' + my other additions. Still, that's some good phrasing and I think I'll borrow a line.

Edit: Did a little bit of editing here, as I always change my mind.
 
[X] Admit the truth.

Let's not have Alex blatantly lie to his parents about something they're right to want to know about, shall we? It'll bite him in the ass later if he lies anyway.
 
[X] Admit the truth
- [X] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic.
- [X] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- - [X] Use examples of helpful and noncombat spells for each school.
 
[x] Admit the truth
- [x] You never have though - Elementalism in general is tied for your worst area of magic. You're more focused on magic to make things better, protect them, travel, and to help you learn.
- [x] This is a good time to explain 'Spell Levels' and the various 'Schools' of magic.
- - [x] Use examples of helpful and noncombat spells for each school.
 
Cytokinesis said:
Our lack of Courage is also what caused Gorn's and the Sorcerer's deaths in the first place. For Gorn it was a matter of not believing that we could handle him nonlethally. We did have spells that probably could have put him down - an overpowered sleeping spell could have done the trick, and I'm sure I could think of a few more with a quick glance at the spell list. For the Sorcerer it was fear that he would come after us when he got away, even though we had confirmation from Judge that it could have been resolved.

Yes, it's possible they both would have come back to haunt us, but that's the thing - we didn't have the Courage to accept that possibility, to be the better person and look for the best solution rather than to go for the one that solved the immediate problem. Being both an eight year old (which means he should not be making these kinds of decisions) and the reincarnation of Ganondorf (which means he absolutely should distance himself from those kinds of instinctual rage reactions - and go reread the relevant posts if you doubt that rage was involved in the decision making), we have to work much harder to be good than a normal person. Or at least should if we want to go for the best ending and be the hero.
If "let a literal hero-killing demon that has tried to kill you survive" would be a sign of Courage, Farore must be awfully disappointed in Link, because he never lets any demon that attacks him with lethal intent come out of it ok.
Then we throw in how, if we left him alone, he could grind much better than us due to constantly getting stronger from anything that didn't kill him and, well, I think even Farore couldn't blame us for it, without being a massive hypocrite (and if she wants to bring in the old sorcerer who threw lava at an 8-year old boy, I'm sure Alex would be happy to talk about Twinrova and what Link did to those two mortal witches)
 
Krain said:
If "let a literal hero-killing demon that has tried to kill you survive" would be a sign of Courage, Farore must be awfully disappointed in Link, because he never lets any demon that attacks him with lethal intent come out of it ok.
Then we throw in how, if we left him alone, he could grind much better than us due to constantly getting stronger from anything that didn't kill him and, well, I think even Farore couldn't blame us for it, without being a massive hypocrite (and if she wants to bring in the old sorcerer who threw lava at an 8-year old boy, I'm sure Alex would be happy to talk about Twinrova and what Link did to those two mortal witches)
Fine, that may have been a bad example, but I feel deeply uncomfortable that we've lead Alex to kill sentient beings twice now.

Gorn is easier to justify seeing as we were a moment away from getting our head chopped off, but with the Sorcerer Judge outright told us there was a path for the 'best' solution available.

I don't think it was evil, I just think we could have (and should have) done better.
 
Cytokinesis said:
Gorn is easier to justify seeing as we were a moment away from getting our head chopped off, but with the Sorcerer Judge outright told us there was a path for the 'best' solution available.
Could I get a quote on that? Because I don't really remember that being said.
 
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