Why Game Stats are Poison to Storytelling

One interesting thing is that, in a lot of cases, these numbers don't convey any information. They're not only a part of many settings, but an unexamined and unexplained part of many of the same. In this way, we can say they tell rather than showing, but they often fail to actually tell a reader anything.

In D&D you know exactly what the gain from 17 to 18 strength is going to be, how it will change your bonuses and derived statistics, how it will impact your ability to interact with the world. You understand, very strictly, the meaning of raising strength. It's a very reduced, simplified logic representing abilities, but it's a change with concrete effects. It's rewarding, not just because the number went up (though that is intrinsically rewarding) but because your ability to interact with the world has fundamentally changed. You are different in a meaningful and consequential way.

By contrast, a lot of bad LNs don't really ever ground a stat in any meaningful way, and when they do justify the stats, there's very little that the stats add to this justification. We see a protagonist doing training stuff and getting better and see that progress through some token fight against trash mobs and happen to get told that Swording went up by 4. The latter adds nothing, while the former would be equally useful without the stat changes.

They're not even a cheat to avoid showing things, because we still need to see them in most cases. Instead, they're a means of building hype. THE NUMBERS WENT UP is psychologically satisfying, even when the reader knows, or should know, that those numbers mean nothing.

That said, I do think almost every stat-based story trips into doing at least two things that are fairly interesting, even if somewhat accidentally and poorly in many cases. There are things inherent to the idea of introducing game mechanics to a setting that change the way it works, even if writers don't consciously explore the consequence of making their world run on game rules.

Firstly, people are quantified. You never really know who in the real world is going to be the best actuary, but in a lot of these settings you can actually hire the person with the best actuary skill. Or maybe you don't hire the person with the best actuary skill because their personality is shit. Either way, you're forcing a quantification of the self that, if not narratively comprehensible, allows for decisions to be made in universe that we could not make in our own according to reasons we can understand. We may not know how +1 to actuariness facilitates actuarying, but we can understand that people in the setting do understand this and that it is true. People know things on paper that couldn't rationally be understood through other means.

Real ambiguity is lost. Even something silly like a "Who'd win" fight between Mike Tyson and Rocky are much more solvable questions to the people in the world. Tyson has A+ boxing while Rocky has A endurance instead of A- but only A- boxing rating so...

Often, this isn't explored well, but it's very hard to have levels in a setting and not have people engage with the fact of those levels being known. Society is built around this quantification implicitly or explicitly, and that is something that intrinsically adds to a story, whether it's being used well or not is a different issue, but where stats are a means of not engaging with things in many cases, the social consequence of such stats being a thing that are known in universe are innately interesting and do tend to influence any story where they come up. Vegeta doesn't need to see Goku fight to know that Goku has more than 9000 power. It is a quantifiable thing in universe and people have to face the decision to trust that reduction of the self and of self-worth or fight against it. Does Vegeta trust the Scouter? Should he? There's a pretty fundamental philosophical question this brings up, and even bad series are usually forced to engage with this to some degree or another.

The exceptions would be, of course, the stories where only super-special MC-mcamazing has stats and can see only their own, which are depressingly common.

Another interesting feature is the nature of effort and extrinsic reward. In most such settings with stats, you can see a very visible increase in your abilities by virtue of practicing. You write 10,000 lines and your Writing skill raises from 10 to 12. You know this will happen and you can see it as it happens. There is a type of gamification in the psychological manipulation and quantification of rewards sense. The character knows they can improve if only they try, and this in turn serves as a motivation to try. In the real world, it's often very difficult to see incremental change, or to know how to improve. In Dragonlance there isn't a huge relationship between the number of goblins the heroes stab and their power. There's also relatively little incentive for the characters to go around committing genocide randomly. In a game-based setting, there is often incredible motive to grind, and, equally, a social pressure to grind. The fact that this is literally power for murdering sapient creatures in many cases isn't terribly well explored, but you do see some necessary implications of living in a Jessie Schell Gamepocalypse-style world.
 
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I do remember reading on TV Tropes that 'power levels' were originally written into Dragonball to make fun of the idea that fighting prowess could be expressed as a number, though with most of my Dragonball familiarity coming from TeamFourStar I wouldn't be able to confirm this.

If it was it was done poorly. I remember reading some people posting how ultimately they were always correct, it was the ability to determine them that was wrong with people being able to conceal them from Scouters or having abilities that multiplied them which weren't able to be detected until they were actually pulled them out.
 
If it was it was done poorly. I remember reading some people posting how ultimately they were always correct, it was the ability to determine them that was wrong with people being able to conceal them from Scouters or having abilities that multiplied them which weren't able to be detected until they were actually pulled them out.

Yeah there are some people who took the TFS "Power Levels Are Bullshit!" quote way out of context.

Even before Power Levels were introduced as numbers, Dragon Ball ran on very clear A > B > C > D logic. So if Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Part 1 was a 200, he could easily defeat everyone else in the show less than a 200.

The addition of numbers just systematized everything and honestly made it more interesting. To this day I still like reading fanmade power level charts where SSJ4 Goku has a power level somewhere in the trillions I think. You gotta figure out a few multipliers and look at second hand sources and it's all rather fun.
 
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I mean, with Dragonball Z things don't really hinge on power levels. Because power levels doesn't amount to much more than an arbitrary number to express who is more swole. The entire point of Dragonball Z is the characters constantly pushing themselves in terms of their literal strength. But the problem with that is that there's a limit in how much you can show that, because ultimately the logical endgame is people bench pressing mountains, which would just look silly.

So they threw in some bullshit number to try to quantify things a bit, it doesn't change the nature of DBZ fights as basically being screaming and punching contests where the winner is whoever is more jacked and has greater strength of will.

This also ties into something these stat heavy interpretations of shonen style power completely lack, a guiding ethos. In Dragonball it's all about working hard to push your limits and challenge yourself, the process of a character getting stronger stands for something human and real. What the hell does an RPG system stand for? Who can bullshit a set of arbitrary rules better?
 
It's not videogames themselves, but how their mechanics are implemented poorly into written works. I don't think anyone here is trying to say anything about video games. What we're talking about specifically here is how game mechanics, namely stats and how they are used, generally don't really belong in stories that are not centered around video games.

Video games are an entirely different medium from novels, and can use different mechanics to tell a story that wouldn't work in novels. Likewise there are aspects of novels that would not translate very well to games. It can be done, but requires a decent amount of skill to make work that the average light novel writer can't replicate.
Well I already noted that angle has already been discussed. Mary Sues are to stories what Munchkins are to RPGs, adding stats simply means that the Mary Sues are now literally Munchkins too. And note that when I say RPGs, I mean actual tabletop role-playing games, not videogames where you gain stats. Something like SAO's dual wielding Kirito has a lot more in common with tabletop munchkins and sues than actual videogames, which are generally balanced to exclude said nonsense to the best of their abilities.

You say that stats are poison to storytelling. I say that its just another crutch that bad storytellers fall back on and form the preponderance of works, but which has legitimate uses, like SI fics. Hence points like this:
Firstly, people are quantified.
Another interesting feature is the nature of effort and extrinsic reward.
Are more interesting to me. Such as how both principles are simultaneously egalitarian and anti egalitarian. Quantification means that you can demonstrate that bigotry against groups is demonstrably wrong as their stats can be measured and shown to be on average the same... but at a more individual level people with lower stats will get discriminated against. Improvement means that people from bad backgrounds or even with bad stats can improve to Great Man levels... but it also means that Great Man Theory will be a literal fact of life for society.

Either principle alone would generate world utterly unrecognizable, not just in power structure, but in the basic nature of society and culture.
 
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Are more interesting to me. Such as how both principles are simultaneously egalitarian and anti egalitarian. Quantification means that you can demonstrate that bigotry against groups is demonstrably wrong as their stats can be measured and shown to be on average the same... but at a more individual level people with lower stats will get discriminated against. Improvement means that people from bad backgrounds or even with bad stats can improve to Great Man levels... but it also means that Great Man Theory will be a literal fact of life for society.

Either principle alone would generate world utterly unrecognizable, not just in power structure, but in the basic nature of society and culture.

That also has interesting potential in terms of in-universe build experimentation/job based deviations/regional build differences getting explored.

Like, to focus on that last one, it could be the case that it's not some silly joke or meme or the like that The Fantasy Russians Are Immune To Cold, it's easily verified fact that they all take immunity to cold in early childhood because, well, it's cold there.

Or you might see one nation thinking the perfect miner build is z and the other thinking it's x, with knock off effects on what the miners are like and are capable of in the region. There's a lot of potential to be explored there.
 
There are good authors that managed to make alright to decent fics involving game mechanics that already been talked about like Forged destiny and natural 20, hell even Naruto: [Ramen days] can be decent in it mechanics and how it was written.

The problems most author who created these gamer fics are that they have no idea what these stats/numbers even mean. Hell most of their MC/OC/SI don't have any weaknesses and are basically good at everything, pure power fantasy sometimes.....they could at least make the effort to make the power fantasy a little interesting instead of boring and dull...

what is 10 STR, what is 20 STR, 35 STR? what would 50 STR and what is 100 STR in a term that you can understand/ in the real world be like? What is the value to lift a bus, a tank or even a build??? They don't do that kind of effort or explain it...

For example you can make 10 STR into the average, 20 STR for someone decently fit, 35 STR for peak human where the person can lift like 800-1100 pounds. 50 STR can be the amount for lifting a small car with some trouble and 100 STR can represent lifting car and throwing it far enough distance.

you can even make these same numbers into a smaller scale like so:
5 (average), 10 (fit), 17 (peak human), 25 (barely lift car), 50 (car & throw)

You can even do this for INT (intelligent is a hard stats to fully and properly define. Because there is all kind of intelligent):
like what is the average for a 15 years old, what is value is decently good at memorizing, what is a average scientist, what stat value is at the level of a photographic like memory and etc.

For example you can have high INT but be bad in one subject while someone is good at that subject. Math expert that can solve complicated equations vs. Language expert that can speak french, Spanish and etc. both have decently high INT but different areas they are strong in.

The author of the Gamer might not be perfect and still learning but most of these fanfic authors are idiots/morons compare to said author who actually tries to put in effort for his work.

Honestly, I disagree. The idea that the problem is a lack of clarity or exactness about stats feels wrong to me. To take the example of forged destiny, can you tell me what strength means in that? How much can 5 strength lift, or 10, or 20? How fast is a runner with dex vs agi? What combination of stat lets you run a 5 minute mile. Heck, there is a single stat, resilience, which is explicitly unknown. Now maybe the author has a detailed chart of what each does and what the breakpoints are, but I doubt it. For one thing, the narrative activly works against it. By keeping non-personal stats hidden, and by making it taboo to discuss them, the author make the story act (from a reader perspective) like a statless world. We know ruby has a high dex/agi because she is fast, rather than knowing she is fast because her dex and agi are both 30+. In effect, the author has created a story where we experience it as a real world, rather than a game-esq, even if we know the opposite is true for the world.


Or to put it another way, imagine every bad story/fanfic you've read with game stats in them. Would SOA have been better if it spent a chapter laying out how much lifting capacity each point of str gives you? Or what an average int it of a 15 year old vs 20. Do you real believe than any of them would be improved by those details?
 
Ranks and power levels are things that readers like, and so they make for effective tools. The kind of audience that likes these battle heavy stories will get into the concept, and more importantly they will immediately comprehend it. If you're writing a story and a character whispers 'Do you see that guy over there? That's Darker McEdgelord. They say he reached S-class in less than two years' then people will just grok that instantly due to familiarity with stories that do similar things. That's economical. It's effective - like giving a character an epithet. When I made a friend with zero familiarity with Gundam watch the original series' compilation films, just hearing people call Char Aznable the Red Comet worked. He immediately knew that Char meant business, even without knowing where the epithet came from or how Char got it. He just knew.

It's all part of hype making, which is a big part of why these fighting stories capture the imagination. How characters talk about other characters and their strength, how they rank against each other, and so on. That shit is fun. It helps you get invested. When Whitebeard finally took to the field in One Piece it was a big deal even before he did anything, because at this point everyone from his allies to his enemies had been hyping him up. Even characters established to be miles beyond the protagonist were concerned by his movements. It was a big deal - it generated emotions of awe and hope at his appearance.

I don't like the Gamer and I think giving characters in ostensibly 'real' fantasy settings statistics sheets is a step too far. Unless it's satirical - Konosuba really benefits from the world literally being a shitty RPG. However a lot of this is down to presentation and execution. Epithets are a great tool, but the otherwise well-written and well-executed Trails series of JRPGs has way too many of them, making the whole thing feel faintly ridiculous. But even something like Danmachi, which is hardly good, largely just presents its statuses as the blessings of the gods that grow stronger as you perform more heroic acts, with the numbers on paper just an attempt to convey what those blessings do for the adventurers. No one ever really talks about them in any great detail - in that respect they're like any other superpower, a plot device to send the characters off on heroic and exciting adventures. The only thing that matters is the character's level, which is otherwise just like any other power level thing, and one that works well enough.

To that end I'm not so fussed. If a story ends up dwelling on leveling up then it's probably not going to be great - training arcs are rarely good outside of sports stories. But otherwise it's just another tool in the box.
 
If it was it was done poorly. I remember reading some people posting how ultimately they were always correct, it was the ability to determine them that was wrong with people being able to conceal them from Scouters or having abilities that multiplied them which weren't able to be detected until they were actually pulled them out.

*Raises hand* that was me!
 
Overlord's problems is that it gets boring real quick (hopefully season 2 will fix that)

In lieu of becoming interesting or having the guild face actual opposition, the later volumes of Overlord decides to show how literally all of the people in Nazrick are sick fucks who don't deserve to live.

It's a shame too because the New World is really interesting but all of Nazrick's interactions end in horrific atrocities like the following scene from volume 7. Don't read it if you're easily disturbed.

"Ok… Uh, hmm, speaking of which, uh, what's Demiurge-san doing right now?"


"He's conducting a breeding experiment. Humans can breed with each other, but can't breed with demi-humans. Is this not a true tragedy? For lovers to be unable to bear the fruit of their union just because they're from different species! To save such unfortunate souls, Demiurge-sama is working hard. To develop that possibility between humans and demi-humans!"


The clown spoke as if he was reciting a speech with both arms wide spread and pointing at the sky. Mare blinked at Pulcinella, who changed so suddenly.


"Ah, please excuse me. I've gotten too excited over Demiurge-sama's generosity of trying to bring joy to humans. Please, forgive me."


"Ah, it's, uh, fine."


"Demiurge-sama said that he would make himself —or rather the demons— the target of the human's hatred, so they wouldn't resent each other. Such immense selflessness! This Pulcinella cannot even see because he moved me to tears."


Pulcinella motioned to wipe his tears on top of his mask. Of course, there were no actual tears and he spoke in his regular cheerful tone, which didn't sound sad at all.


"…Why would they hate him?"


"I cannot understand why they would hate our kind and generous Demiurge-sama, but he said that himself. Ah, speaking of which, listen to this. Because Demiurge-sama was so generous, he took pity on the starving livestock. So he made them exchange children with each other, roasted them and put them on the table. If he was heartless, wouldn't he have served them up without exchanging them?"


"I-Is that so?"


"Of course. He even allowed them to say farewell by bringing over both parents and letting them sit by the table… For there to be someone like Demiurge-sama, who would be considerate enough for the family to say farewell while smiling… There won't be anyone besides the Supreme Beings. I'm sure of it."


"I guess…"


Mare gave a flat response to Pulcinella's enraptured speech. He didn't care what happened to anyone who did not belong to Nazarick. After a couple of seconds, Mare erased all thoughts of Demiurge's livestock.


"Plus, when starving, their head might say yes, but their stomach might not. Demiurge-sama thought ahead and after warning them, made sure they ate it all, down to the last bit. He is a truly generous…"

I admit I'm generalising here, but I think it's no coincidence that most non-interactive stories that insist on using Stats tend to come from Japan, where strict hierarchies, (often arbitrary) classifications and knowing precisely where people stand in comparison to each other is very much a thing.
Not like that excuses Stats in Storytelling to me, but I'd say it's a factor that should at least be taken into account, and it's not like Western sci-fi/fantasy is free of arbitrariness either.

I do remember reading on TV Tropes that 'power levels' were originally written into Dragonball to make fun of the idea that fighting prowess could be expressed as a number, though with most of my Dragonball familiarity coming from TeamFourStar I wouldn't be able to confirm this.

Trying to derive insight into a culture via a specific subset of a specific type of media that appeals to specific demographics while ignoring everything else is absolutely ridiculous.

The reason is more likely that light novels and web novels have a lower barrier to entry than most western media due to various reasons. This naturally leads to a lot of trash, some of which include stories that do things like this. It's not as though there's aren't five billions Game of the Year fanfics that did the same long before translations of light novels like this ever arrived.

Funnily enough, this thread actually inspired me to incorporate Stats and rankings in a couple of my own works, but as enemy propaganda in one and as part of a 'performance' characters put on in the other, not as anything that factually exists in either story's worlds.

Why though? It's rare that adding something into a story from so little an inspiration ever ends well. For one, it immediately makes you wonder why they'd make such ridiculous and obviously untrue propaganda.

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The root of the matter is treating something intended to be an abstraction of reality as something objectively true and whether or not you follow through on the idea, thinking about what it would mean if they were real. The distinction between a positive and negative use of game mechanics in general are whether you then indulge them or engage with them, they aren't intrinsically poison*. It's a matter of verisimilitude.

If you indulge them, you use them in the same way and for the same purpose as videogames, while also having them exist within the world of the story** and have characters be able to access them***. It's an obvious and radical departure as we know it and yet they don't bother to examine what that change would mean beyond a cursory level and maybe some characters calling the main character "bullshit" a couple of times. Ugh. They're using it to skip the story.

Alternatively, you engage with them.You treat them as real and then examine what that would mean for the world. You think about how society would change if they existed. You think about how these mechanics works and how your attributes represent them. Or perhaps how they don't represent conventional attributes at all and the latter are distinct i.e. Charisma vs simply giving persuasive arguments. And so on. They're using it to create story.

The fact that they care enough and are able to do this means it isn't going to innately be shit and are a sign that it might actually be good.

For example:

Classes are real, objective things that people can see? What would that mean for the world? That'd almost inevitably lead to a caste system and thus discrimination. What happens when someone has a strictly superior variant of a class to another? How are they treated? How do they react? What happens when someone does something not represented by their class? Do they still get better at it, at least in the conventional sense of muscle memory and experience (not XP)? Are they even physically capable of doing so? How would people react to any of the answers to those things?

Statistics are real, objective things that people can see? Well, how do they work? In real life, physical abilities tend to raise across the board to some extent and mental abilities are almost always cross applicable. What does a high STR represent? There's a reason people say not to skip leg day. Is this strength even across the entire body across every point of leverage? What happens to muscles? Do muscles even do anything? If they do, what about characters with physically impossible levels of strength? If not, what do they do? How would people react to any of the answers to those things?

You can see how many questions are immediately raised by things like this. A trash story will just take it for granted that everything is the same, uncritically indulging in the use of game mechanics. A not trash story will think about what those mechanics would mean for the world, engaging with the idea.

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*It's not even an issue innately exclusive to them. Treating an abstraction as real without thinking about it immediately fucks things up. Imagine a work where scene transitions or other narrative shorthands were objectively real, yet the characters didn't think about them or react to them on more than a surface level.

People don't do this because they aren't intended to represent the character getting stronger so who gives a fuck amiright? That and/or it's too much of a break from anything resembling reality for even a complete hack.

**though this is not necessary for it to be shit, it's just that the alternative is so bad even the most shameless light novelistwouldn't do it i.e. using them to skip story without having them exist in the story.
***Nor is this. The alternative is even worse though because it means you can't even use flimsy excuse of the characters seeing them when you interrupt the flow of the narrative with this bullshit.

If you've seen examples of either of these, please tell me. That's a nadir that I have to see.
 
I admit I'm generalising here, but I think it's no coincidence that most non-interactive stories that insist on using Stats tend to come from Japan, where strict hierarchies, (often arbitrary) classifications and knowing precisely where people stand in comparison to each other is very much a thing.
Not like that excuses Stats in Storytelling to me, but I'd say it's a factor that should at least be taken into account, and it's not like Western sci-fi/fantasy is free of arbitrariness either.

I do remember reading on TV Tropes that 'power levels' were originally written into Dragonball to make fun of the idea that fighting prowess could be expressed as a number, though with most of my Dragonball familiarity coming from TeamFourStar I wouldn't be able to confirm this.

Funnily enough, this thread actually inspired me to incorporate Stats and rankings in a couple of my own works, but as enemy propaganda in one and as part of a 'performance' characters put on in the other, not as anything that factually exists in either story's worlds.

Ok, quick thing, in DB, power levels are a thing, they were intended to show the flaw in relying on them, but they were always factually accurate- in terms of expressed power, if one was hiding them or had techniques that could change them or so on. And when someone increased in power, it'd really increase at the speed of plot.


A lot of Japanese media has a hierarchy of numbers or ranks, but also likes to throw it, "Ah ha, but it's not as absolute as people think!"- but often more in the 'there's more movement between them than they like to accept' or 'they don't want to count X in their ranking system' type thing rather than it actually being flat-out false.
 
Overlord's problems is that it gets boring real quick (hopefully season 2 will fix that) and of course stats don't play much of a role. Konosuba gets over it because it doesn't take itself seriously.
I am not the most versed in the series - let alone its extended universe / original media, the light novels - but from what I can recall its stats were infuriatingly obfuscated and unclear with things such as "The average caster can only learn spells up to Third Level but there's casters up to Sixth Level but the tier between levels is so grand that something immune to spells 6th and under can be one-shot by 7th level magic also despite magic above Third being uncommon there's an asston of rituals and joint spells that can duplicate higher level spells and-" And I just started to wonder "What's the fucking point of using Tiers and mechanics when what @Revlid said in Post 1 is not only far better writing but more cohesive and understandable too". The class system is just as much a mess (if not moreso) too.

Also it's dreadfully boring (when it's not downright horrifying in the sheer number of atrocities the 'protagonist' engages in / they and their peer enact as jokes or are treated as benevolent for doing) because of aforementioned "A single tier of magic can be such a huge WTFOMGBBQ variance that it goes from complete no-sell to instant-death. By the way, the protagonist? Can casually toss around spells three tiers above what the best-of-the-best in-universe can do and has a cleaning staff whose weakest members require said best of the best with coincidentally perfectly-tailored spells for natives to stand a chance against."
 
I get it guys, Overlord kinda sucks (I'll still be watching it though, just to see the train derail and kill off all its passengers). :V

Maybe make a new thread about it huh? At least it'll be not boring compared to season 1.
 
I find it funny that Log Horizon has stats that are obviously a big thing in universe but we never deal with that directly. We deal with the fact Newbs can't get enough money to supply themselves so they get abused. We deal with the fact that the NPC's can't hold off the invasion so they literally Waifu the adventurers into fighting their war.

In a show about economics and society building, one where a whole fight was solved by using an actually clever combo of abilities we never actually get the numbers. Just that, it was a stun+eachattackdoesmoredamage and hitsatonoftimesreallyfast so they took down someone who was stronger by teamwork.

Coincidentally one thing I think works better is if you keep it vague. Nasuverse reads alot better when you assume that the stats are an actual range within itself and a rough estimate at that(hence why there'll be + or - and so many odd ducks).
 
Idk enough about MMO mechanics to say if Log Horizon's mechanics hold up, but honestly the stats don't matter in the long run. Shiroe and his closest party members are all maxed level. There are differences in numbers with a level 1 fighter and a level 90 fighter sure, but considering the hardest dungeon runs in Log Horizon are more about strategy than numbers, it works far far better. For all of season 2's missteps, it does dungeon raids right.

And that's lacking in a lot of these stat-based stories: wits. Shiroe is max level, but considering he's an Enchanter, aka a buffer based class who can't handle things on his own, he's dead if he goes out dungeon diving alone. His prowess comes not from individual fighting skill, but tactics. He lets other people do the actual fighting while he buffs from afar.

Honestly, how many of these stat based protagonists are like Shiroe? You get Kirito the fighter/DPS, Momonga and his nukes (that he got from buying P2Win items), and I'd say something about Gamer but I haven't read Gamer and probably won't.

It'd be nice to see more Shiroes and less Kiritos.
 
For a manga that uses "power levels" and handles it decently at least, I think Toriko deserves a mention.

Capture Levels are used early on to show how tough on average a creature is (there's literally an early explanation saying CL1 means dudes with shotguns can take it on, CL5 can bust a tank, etc.), but it's also noted that more rare/hard to prepare or capture (ironically) stuff also gets high-ish capture levels. Many/most creatures have their Capture Levels given during their first appearance, just so we can see the progression in strength of the main characters (who literally are making it a mission to find tougher stuff and eat more exotic stuff).

When we see the 4 Beasts, who are roughly CL 100, we also are treated to seeing what each of them can do-namely, tank continent-leveling firepower, or dodge lasers, or spit massive volumes of acid that destroy the ground, etc. But the key thing is that the Capture Levels are independent of the abilities of the creatures. The general gist was the higher the Capture Level of a creature, the more tough/strong/hard to capture or find it was, but usually exotic abilities or something cool came into play that was more important and the focal point of the character.

When the 8 Kings are introduced, and we see the Capture Level of them (6K+), Capture Levels serve to illustrate "woah these things are way above the paygrade of the other insane wildlife" but we've already gotten that impression (literally, when we see Heracles' hoofprint is literally a kilometer in size) and the CL level is basically a formality to the readers who really want to know power levels. The interesting part of the 8 Kings was "what is their unique ability/power set" and how they use it in combat. When we FINALLY see Derous the Dragon King, everyone went "WOAH I WONDER WHAT HIS ABILITY IS" and when the Capture Levels of the 8 Kings are brought up it's only once and then the rest of the exposition on each King is about their abilities. Hell, one of the Wolf King's subordinates is CL 6200 or something, and that's HIGHER than Bambina's (sealed) CL or the Crow King's, but CL is somewhat of a formality when you get to this level (which is "casual planet-busting/devastation") and doesn't really tell the whole picture (GOD has a CL of 10000 but would likely get killed by any of the 8 Kings).

This is also all subverted in the final battle, when we're given the Capture Level for Neo/post-God Neo/NeoAcacia, and all it does is instill a sense of "oh jeez he's even MORE overpowered now" and Midora immediately goes "who the hell is keeping track of CL and power levels that's really stupid." In fact, we never even find out MIdora's Capture Level (or EoS Toriko or his demons) but we sure as hell know his strength and are excited to see him fight NeoAcacia.
 
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Actually, no. He's close, but the latest game update (the same one that brought them to the game world), like any major updates, raises the level cap by... ten levels, I think? Raising the levels requires steep grinding which only a few guilds have done IIRC.

Yeah he's level 90 and the max cap became 100, my point still stands though.
 
Doesn't the dungeon arc mention they're under leveled and geared for it though? 'Cause it certainly plays like it and helps ramp the tension a bit.
 
It'd be nice to see more Shiroes and less Kiritos.

I'm not hugely fond of listening to narration about action scenes, to be honest :V

A fair few issues arise in Log Horizon due to the raised level cap. It's what creates the market for EXP pots, as the raiding guilds want to raise their levels above 90 but the experience gain is abysmal. By the latest volumes characters like Krusty and Isaac have reached level 94. However in general what we're supposed to be taking away is that the top figures are all basically at the heights of Elder Tale's power. Shiroe can overpower a Lander with two fingers despite being an anemic spellcaster, for example.

In any case the absolute best power level system is the bounties from One Piece. Actual genius.
 
I suspect I know what you mean, but do you mind elaborating on why you think it's the best "power level" system?

Most importantly it's characterful, and it makes a great deal of 'sense' within the assumptions of the setting. Bounties represent, in a raw dollar value, how dangerous a person is. When the World Government puts a hundred million bounty on someone, you know hat they take that person seriously, that they are a big deal because of the attention they have received. However by nature they have some ambiguities. To start, they are criminal bounties, not direct representations of power, so for a while Robin had a higher bounty than Sanji, even though Sanji is the stronger of the two, while Chopper has a bounty of 100 because the World Government think that he's a pet.

Also because they are arbitrary cash values, they can be manipulated by the powers that be, for one reason or another. They exist in a really interesting story space as a result, while still effectively working as a system of power level.
 
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