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Whitewashed (Experimental Quest)

Dear young Fuyu. There is something a great man once said that you should hear.

Everyone is the Hero of their own tale. You are the master of your fate.
 
That's not true, they're salamanders, there's a big difference. also, as I am a giant cloud that watches over people, I do not believe I can have bad breath, let alone any breath.
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Sure sure, just keap telling yourself that, Mr Toad. :p
 
...nah.
You have some people who are entirely selfish; people who dedicate their lives to charity and the wellbeing of others. People who put their own lives at risk to protect others - fire fighters, doctors, and so on.
 
There's also another saying, "There are no heroes, just villians with different perspectives."
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Frankly, neither is terribly plausible, read as written. People have varying levels of control over what outcomes they end up with, but nowhere near the total control that "master of your own fate" implies.

Your statement seems to be suggesting that any act of heroism is self-deluding villainy, which is frankly implausible. (unless maybe you make killing people essential to the definition of hero)
Someone who risks their life to save a stranger's child from a burning building is, on any plausible account of heroism, a hero. Arguments could be made to the effect that said persons intent is not as altruistic as one might suppose, if you claim they are seeking praise or something, but that at worst makes the act morally neutral.
To say that they are a villain with a different perspective is patently absurd.
Therefore there are heroes that are not villains with a different perspective.
therefore you are wrong, Mr TOaOD! :p
 
Who said anything about killing? If a child dies, so be it, that man now saved a child, who may grow up to do terrible acts of terror. Have you watched monster? Well, a good doctor did a "heroic" deed and saved a child from death, and inadvertently caused the death of many, he now has created a monster, even when not done out of spite or malicious intent. Good job mister Doctor. You created a monster.
 
Simply bringing about bad outcomes by accident is not enough to make one a villain, on any account of villainy that even remotely resembles its everyday usage.
Villainy requires some level of malice, or at least recklessness and negligence. (The industrialist who allows a villiage's water supply to be poisoned because he does not give a fuck about them is probably a villain, even if he bears them no malice.)

But even if it were the case that causing bad things to happen always makes you a villain, acts of heroism do not always cause bad things to happen, and thus there are still cases of non-villainous heroism.
 
Fuyu. . . I am but one voice among many, and have little to offer. I shall give what meager council I can and what support you need.
 
Would George Washington be a hero? He rebelled against a monarchy yes, but he also ended the lives of hundred of men, all in the sake of propagating the goals of his own agenda, call him a hero if you will, the souls of the fallen will gnash their teeth at you, because they were people as well not some kind of monster, they were just doing what they could for their family. American soldiers are heroes to Americans no? Well, somewhere out there, a child curses America and all it stands for, for taking his father, his legs, and his happiness all because of someones misinformation. So, what are you going to tell him, that it's alright because it was done by a "hero"? He'll stab you, right then and there. No doubt.
 
TOaOD, the existence of such borderline case does not mean that there is no distinction to be drawn between hero and villain.
Your example supports the conclusion "there are heroes who are villains with a different perspective", but not the conclusion that you are claiming, that "There are no heroes, just villians with different perspectives."

I agree with you on the first point, but the second is obviously bollocks.
Washington's heroics or villainy depend on perspective, but not all do.
The existence of a single nonvillainous hero invalidates the second claim.

Ya got me?
 
So the person who was responsible for making sure no civilians were harmed in a barrage of rockets and missiles is not at fault and that child clearly does not matter because that person got most of the targets right and thus and therefore must be a hero because he targetted most of the correct targets and still hit a village filled with civilians and caused physical and mental trauma to a poor child who may or may not have become a great or bad person. Right. So this is your stance on that. Whether or not that scenario actually happened can be debated but regardless of anything, just look at the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Most people have already chosen sides, regardless of each sides heinous acts on each other. Hitler, most will agree, was a terrible man. But many seem to overlook Stalin, or the Chinese, or the Japanese's treatment to the Chinese, Korean, and other South-Eastern Asian countries, just because of Hitler. But at that time in Germany, Hitler was seen as a "Hero", no doubt that he thought he was as well. He was a skilled orator and was able to sway the entirety of Germany onto his side, for that I respect him. Not idolize nor adore, nor anything else, but simply respect his prowess at speaking. Also, the Allied Forces in the first World War taxed Germany heavily, even though they did nothing much other than honor their alliances, so while it would seem justified for the Allies, for the Germans, it was unfair beyond comparison. It's like entering a contract saying you'll defend your charge from all possible threats, having the charge piss people off, you honoring the contract, and then getting all the blame placed upon yourself. And there is also another quote to keep in mind, "History is written by the victors." That is true, to the victors goes the spoils, and with that also comes the ability to twist everything that happened, allowing them to make them seem noble and heroic. Tell me, if I created a suitably powerful artificial intelligence and then sought out to rule the world as a communist world government that would make Marx cry tears of joy, and made the A.I. adhere to the beliefs of Marxism, would that seem ideal? To some, yes, to the many masses who believe a Democratic-Republic/Socialist capitalist system is better because of their freedom, no. To myself and to others, I would be a hero for giving everyone jobs, a stable income, and all the necessities of life. However, sad to say, a true communist system is not possible as humans are inherently lazy and corrupt, slacking off of work when they could be working, therefore lowering work productivity. Also, no one will tell the truth on why they did anything, if it was a heroic act they'll start to spout things like "It was the right thing to do." or stuff like, "I know how it felt like and so I couldn't let anyone suffer the same." They won't say what truly drove them, they'll spin themselves in a good light, not outwardly tell anyone was that it was for other non-altruistic wants or needs.
 
Well, Fuyu, I was using the wrong tactics to drive you mad before. I now see that I should have just had an argument in your head.
 
TOaOD said:
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For future reference I would break that up into paragraphs so that its easier to read. Now I'm not entirely sure what it is you are trying to argue you for, It appears to be a deterministic view of morality, but I'm seeing a definite trend of relativism as well. Morale relativism doesn't play to well with other systems of morality so I'm somewhat confused on what exactly your argument is.

However none of this is pertinent to Kuyu at the moment so I would suggest that this discussion be continue in another place or time. I of course cannot stop you from engaging in such a debate and would be happy to do so if it becomes pertinent.
 
You mistake me entirely.
So the person who was responsible for making sure no civilians were harmed in a barrage of rockets and missiles is not at fault and that child clearly does not matter because that person got most of the targets right and thus and therefore must be a hero because he targetted most of the correct targets and still hit a village filled with civilians and caused physical and mental trauma to a poor child who may or may not have become a great or bad person
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Nothing I said even remotely entails that. If this person fucked up and people died because he did not do his job properly, or because he did not give a fuck about the people at risk, then he is probably a villain. If people died due to factors wholly beyond his ability to predict or control, then he probably isn't. That doesn't make him a hero, obviously, as there are people between heroes and villains.


You keep pointing out cases where people do mixed great and terrible things, where their heroism or villainy is unclear, and dependent heavily on perspective. I agree that in all of the cases you have put forward, the person is either not a hero or only a hero from certain perspectives.

This does not in any way show that more clear-cut cases of heroism are villainy from some perspectives.
To reiterate: I agree that whether someone is a hero or villain often depends on perspective, but not in all cases. Some people perform actions that are purely self-sacrificing, or that could not be viewed as heroic by any stretch of the imagination.

If that does not satisfy you, feel free to continue the conversation in PM, but the head of a traumatised young woman is not the place to discuss this.


Edit: PS Senor paragraph is your friend. Make use of him and you will not induce migraines.
 
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Well then Skewfiend, you have put admirable thought upon this topic, and so it would be unseemly to continue our verbal spar. *draws swords*. Instead, let us meet face to face, on the field of honor, steel drawn as instead of words as our weapons, we instead have our swords pointing towards us. So let us Skewfiend, nay, you are not Skewfiend, instead, you shall be an opponent most worthy, perhaps a rival? May I see you upon the ring if you accept. Friend. *plants sword into ground, waiting patiently on an open field*
 
Hmm. Does this work like Homestuck? If so...

Fuyu: Be the other guy. Yes, the Demon Lord.
 
OOC: I am officially declaring this quest dead

Apparently, getting into character for writing this quest managed to so kill my mood that It's taken me nearly all month to recover my ability to write. I was having trouble early on, but then my poor mood began to space out the updates too much, which turned this from many short updates, to needing looong updates to address everything people were posting, which my poor mood just couldn't support. I feel that I've learned some things from this. 1) I shouldn't emulate mentally-ill/depressed/despairing people in my people emulator (a.k.a. my brain). 2) If I was doing this format again, it's clear that frequent updates are mandatory to keep too much backlog from piling up. I think I'd do it as a true short quest, just constantly working on it over a long 3-4 day weekend.

Now to explain what's been going on so you can have some sort of closure.

The setting is heavily influenced by Maoyu Mao Yusha (Demon King and Hero). I drew a lot of elements from that, including to how identity is closely tied up with people's roles instead of their names (which is why assigning a NAME to the MC was a big deal, as it's a bridge to changing/forging a new identity).

Human society is largely feudal, with dozens of Kingdoms all organized against the Demon invasion under the Church (vaguely Catholic anime church!) Classes are even stricter that expected due to the long war against the demons leading to a very regimented and militarized society. To fight against the individual might of the demons, it takes heavily armed, armoured and trained soldiers, meaning untrained peasant levies are useless, resulting in a powerful and large knight class. Below the knights are artisans and farmers, who are concentrated in making goods needed for war, and food for the populace. Trade is largely reduced, due to important resources being taken over as part of the war effort, and luxuries being disdained as part of the teachings of the church. The ultimate power resides in the church, which coordinates the efforts of the individual kingdoms, having moved from a spiritual power to a strong temporal power in the face of an external threat.

Demon society is largely tribal, with hundreds of independent tribes. Before the war, limited, ritual warfare between tribes was occurring constantly, with an elected-for-life figure (The Demon Lord) keeping it from erupting into open warfare. Demon technology and society is dependent on magic. A demon's base abilities/appearance are no different than a humans, but even before the war, body modification using magic was common to survive in the much harsher demon world, resulting in many different abilities and shapes.

The War has gone on for a very long time. However, it all started when a demon needed to escape his enemies and accidentally opened a portal into the human world (specifically a city). First contact went poorly, with frightened humans attacking the demon and his pursuers, with the demons retaliating, resulting in widespread destruction and the abandonment of the city. The demon who had learned how to open portals to other worlds died in this initial conflict. The local king led his army to retake the city, and then continued into the demon world. It spiraled out of control, and the humans and demons found themselves into a war to the death. The demons, after unifying under the demon lord in repelling the invading Human King, were initially quite successful, destroying many kingdoms, but were forced to a stalemate once the Church organized the remaining kingdoms into a unified force. The war has continued in this manner for quite some time, due to the humans being convinced that they are in a holy war, and the demons due to the side-effects of magic.

Magic has near limitless potential. It's limitations are due to it's source, namely emotions and the psychic energy of sentient beings. Magic power from yourself is dangerous, as you alter your mind by 'using up' whatever emotion is fueling your spell, but these emotions replenish over time. Demons often use positive emotions over negative emotions to fuel spells, as it's easier to fight having lost your compassion than if you had used your all your anger up. Demons also favor spells that have lasting effects on their bodies, rather than the flashy one-off spells human mages use.

It's almost impossible to use other people to power magic, but can be done by spilling their blood ritualistically. This ability has only arisen since the start of the human-demon conflict, and is not fully understood as to how it works. (I had not yet decided, since it wasn't directly relevant to anything in the quest).

At the height of the conflict between humans and demons, the current demon lord used his powers and the blood sacrifice of 1000 humans to power a spell to predict and announce the end of the war, to demoralize the remaining human defenders. Instead, it resulted in the following prophecy:
A Hero will arise and gather together a band of the most skilled humans. They will invade the demon's innermost sanctuary and after many trails and and a trail of death, the Hero and the Demon Lord will fight to the death. The Hero will slay the Demon Lord, and then go to the Holy City and create a golden era of peace from the ashes of war.

This demoralized the demons and the stalemate continued until the present day. The current Demon Lord, seeing that a Hero had arisen, sought to deliberately force a prophecy twist. The Demon Lord, instead of trying to kill the Hero, sought to capture him instead, postponing defeat since that would occur after the 'fight to the death.' The Demon Lord was successful, having sacrificed her bodyguards in a blood ritual to capture the hero in a powerful magic spell. The Demon Lord then killed the Hero's companions, bound herself to the Hero (back-to-back, sitting on an altar), and cast a spell to erase the Hero's identity and establish a bridge between their minds, while using most of her own memories and personality as fuel. What's left of the Demon Lord is your MC, and the plan is to steal the identity of "the Hero," force the identity of "Demon Lord" onto the former hero, and kill him in a duel to the death. Then head to the Holy City, burn it to the ground, throwing the church into disarray, allowing the demons to finish the war and bring in a new era of peace, thus ending the war without violating the prophecy.

How successful this plan would be would depend on how the players influenced the MC, and how much they figured out from hints as to the true identity of the MC and 'him.'

If there is anything people still have questions about, feel free to ask! I'll be happy to answer it if I can.
 
Thank you for the closure.
Too many quests just vanish to thin air and I am left wondering about the plot.
Also: I get to feel clever! :D

It was very good while it lasted.
 
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