When Heroes Die

[Glau]

...don't do this Taylor. You've already seen most of the princes destroyed by a hero, the best option you have left is to finish the job.

Do your enemy no small injury. For those whom you injure must not be able to retaliate against you, and those you have not injured most know themselves safe.

Machiavelli was right.

But here you've got a woman who hates you for this and for blaming her for it, and she's not going to let it go. This could have gone very differently, but it didn't, and so now the fallout needs to be contained. Procer cannot stand another civil war? Then there must only be one ruler.

 

[Caiuz]

My attention returned to Cordelia once more.

The shadow flickered, then faded away.

Did she just… refuse the Name?

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My bet is on there being a Villain at play here already. Though I am starting to believe that Cordelia needs to be removed from play permanently, preferably even as far as "Go straight to Reincarnation. Do not pass afterlife, do not collect grave goods".

 

[Glau]

I feel like the minute she is though, the dead king makes his move. She was the Bard's weapon against him, and with her off the board...

Idk. I think with this massacre we may already be at the point that the South cannot be rallied to support the North. There's not really a chamber of princes left, so the bonds holding Procer together are very much in doubt.

 

[famfrit]

So the first one was probably the statue of the sword of the free in the crazy city of Blepharon which is basically extreme democracy everyone is equal all is decided by vote and even jobs are determined every year by lottery. They also have funny sayings to those that go against their beliefs such as may you be eaten by a swarm of bees. Not really sure about the second one with the lighthouse tho.

My bet is on there being a Villain at play here already. Though I am starting to believe that Cordelia needs to be removed from play permanently, preferably even as far as "Go straight to Reincarnation. Do not pass afterlife, do not collect grave goods".

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There is Hasenbach something that's not really touched on is that Above and Below fundamentally aren't about Right and Wrong and Good and Evil that's really more to do with local stories and roles. The bet that creation is made around is basically about the role gods should have whether they should actively guide the flock by setting rules and so on or allow personal freedom and let people rule themselves.

This is actually shown a few times in canon such as the twin stories that cropped up during a plague. A young boy and girl in different towns both had innate magic and could sense it cause it was more of a magical curse. The girl went to the church and continuously prayed for salvation while the boy chose to act and used his magic to burn those infected. Both got Names for it where the girl kept praying until the darkest hour and was rewarded with an Above Name for her show of faith that could cure the infected while the boy got a Below Name that granted magical fire able to destroy the plague and magic in general. Essentially those chosen by Below are those with those who see something wrong with the world and act to fix it themselves according to their own judgement such as how Hasenbach was leaning there while Above is about following the guidance of the gods.

I feel like the minute she is though, the dead king makes his move. She was the Bard's weapon against him, and with her off the board...

Idk. I think with this massacre we may already be at the point that the South cannot be rallied to support the North. There's not really a chamber of princes left, so the bonds holding Procer together are very much in doubt.

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Nah it's fine the fundamental thing to understand about he who created the system of magic founded on usurpation and even tries to usurp the name of a much beloved cultural icon is that he plays so as not to lose because as an undead he can't really grow but has plenty of time so he plans around not being diminished unless there's some great gain that outweighs it. Given all the new Names and Stories from Taylor's world now released which he'll know about from his spies that coward won't poke his head out his hole. Besides it's pretty much directly said in canon that he can't just come out and has to be invited out by someone else granting him the right to other territory which he can then invade. Additionally, in canon he required Bard's assurance that she wouldn't be playing against him and would let him eat the baby this time.

 

[Glau]

I'd say the new stories have thrown those assumptions into turmoil. We've got stories now about monsters eating the works one piece at a time without any invitation: endbringers. We've got stories where the villain wins.

So I think it becomes a question of whether he's more threatened by the new stories, and tries to force an older 'evil sent back defeated' story to keep himself safe from novelty.

 

[Roth963]

I feel like the minute she is though, the dead king makes his move. She was the Bard's weapon against him, and with her off the board...

Idk. I think with this massacre we may already be at the point that the South cannot be rallied to support the North. There's not really a chamber of princes left, so the bonds holding Procer together are very much in doubt.

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There are bonds, the house of light, Taylor can rally a crusade if the dead king attacked, and she can use her superior maneuverability and fire power to disable the armies of all the princes and force them to heel, sput something about how the princes were corrupt for long enough and that it is time for the gods' guidance to truly lead Procer into being good.

She said herself that the armies might turn of their princes if she asked because religion has power here.

I think Laurence already did enough damage, Procer is now split between Taylor and Cordellia that would use her power to try and push Taylor down.

It seems like Cordelia will continue acting against Taylor, probably starting with PR move to paint Taylor as responsible, Taylor should already skip to the end and kill Cordellia for her blindness to understanding she isn't the one with he power here, that Procer now exist in it's current form because Taylor had not yet decided burning it down to replace it is worth it.

There wouldn't even be a civil war, every army assembled will get compassisoned, if they even agree to march, now it is only a matter of either Cordelia realizing it and trying to work with Taylor, or acting against her and doing how much damage she could before Taylor had enough.

I'd say the new stories have thrown those assumptions into turmoil. We've got stories now about monsters eating the works one piece at a time without any invitation: endbringers. We've got stories where the villain wins.

So I think it becomes a question of whether he's more threatened by the new stories, and tries to force an older 'evil sent back defeated' story to keep himself safe from novelty.

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The new stories don't stop the old stories, namely Taylor isn't afraid from endbringer stories because monster killing stories also exist.

He is also blind to the new stories, acting now is wading into a land full of landmines.

 

[Glau]

I don't think we know what happens when a new story comes into conflict with an old one. TBD.

It seems like Cordelia will continue acting against Taylor, probably starting with PR move to paint Taylor as responsible, Taylor should already skip to the end and kill Cordellia for her blindness to understanding she isn't the one with he power here, that Procer now exist in it's current form because Taylor had not yet decided burning it down to replace it is worth it.

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I mean, she should absolutely kill Cordelia despite the fact Cordelia doesn't deserve it and it would be immoral to do it.

Because it's about rulership now. Regardless of whether Taylor wanted it to be- it is and it kinda always was.

And you can't make an enemy like this and then leave them alone if you want to survive as a ruler. So this can end cleanly and everyone can move on, or it can end in a gigantic mess and struggle that will last well into the next crisis.

But I guess Taylor is as trapped as Cordelia is. Taylor can't murder the ruler of a nation and take it over, not without changing her story. Cordelia can't back off of her principles now after sacrificing so many for them.

Interesting times.

There wouldn't even be a civil war,

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Well, yeah. The point is that the armies wouldn't come, not that they would.

And given the ruler of Procer almost came into a villian name just now, I would not bet on a crusade pulling everyone in- Procer being 'good aligned' is not super reliable, especially not with it being a blatant power grab if Taylor called it.

 

[Roth963]

Well, yeah. The point is that the armies wouldn't come, not that they would.

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Even Cordellia can't control the armies, if Taylor did a power grab, she would probably start with grabbing all those soldiers with nothing to do and start turning them into her own army like she intended, only with more roles than policing named.

And given the ruler of Procer almost came into a villian name just now, I would not bet on a crusade pulling everyone in- Procer being 'good aligned' is not super reliable, especially not with it being a blatant power grab if Taylor called it.

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There are also the scribes, author mentioned they are still writing (and damm, that impressive), so at least peasants will know what took place in this room.

So I wouldn't say Taylor can't win the PR war.

There is the fact that Cordelia did honestly not do anything Taylor thinks deserves death yet, even if she is angry, that would probably quickly change if she figured out Cordellia is sending bandits to her lands, I doubt she would care if Cordellia will say she didn't explicitly do it and that it is technically following the law.

That plot might have worked before, Taylor's fuse seem short enough now that I doubt it will now.

 

[Glau]

Even Cordellia can't control the armies, if Taylor did a power grab, she would probably start with grabbing all those soldiers with nothing to do and start turning them into her own army like she intended, only with more roles than policing named.

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How would she grab them? They're loyal to the princes or to their pocketbooks. She doesn't have the tools needed.

So I wouldn't say Taylor can't win the PR war.

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Really depends on how much loyalty the people have to their princes and their country, vs the words of an unknown who just took over the house of light.

 

[Roth963]

Really depends on how much loyalty the people have to their princes and their country, vs the words of an unknown who just took over the house of light.

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Keep in mind Taylor was fighting Laurence and arguing against killing the princes, even as she argued for basically more rights to peasants, it isn't her who killed the princes, her argument in the end was with Cordellia who most of Procer is already kind of racist against.

Still, I don't doubt Cordelia can win the PR battle, because she is simply much better at politics, but I am also saying Taylor has a chance if winning it she isn't passive, but also need to determine what winning is, does she want to smear Cordelia, because Cordellia will definitely want to smear her.

Currently she and Cordellia are stuck as crabs in a bucket pulling Procer down, even as the chaos from the new named will rapidly increase and probably eat through Cordellia's influence as she wouldn't have the ability to manage them, especially after Taylor asked for authority to do it and was refused.

How would she grab them? They're loyal to the princes or to their pocketbooks. She doesn't have the tools needed

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She does have money, as a leader of the house of light, she can also claim the resources of any prince house that resisted her takeover.

She isn't going for it now, but I imagine she can do it, considering how rich the house of light is.

 

[Glau]

She does have money, as a leader of the house of light, she can also claim the resources of any prince house that resisted her takeover.

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I thought it was the other way around? Princes could take house properties if those resisted Taylor's takeover. Didn't think that got passed though.

Plus, it's still illegal for her to employ soldiers, and the soldiers might care.

 

[famfrit]

Still, I don't doubt Cordelia can win the PR battle, because she is simply much better at politics, but I am also saying Taylor has a chance if winning it she isn't passive, but also need to determine what winning is, does she want to smear Cordelia, because Cordellia will definitely want to smear her.

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She can but it's not really a sure thing since the 3 others than survived probably aren't going to be too keen on her given they heard that bit at the end plus the prince of Brus now considers them even. Aside from that a ton of Princes died and will be replaced Cordelia is really good at politics and ruling but that's a ton of new players she'll have to feel out and her reign is new and unstable to begin with even before this so it won't be easy by any means.

 

[Roth963]

I thought it was the other way around? Princes could take house properties if those resisted Taylor's takeover. Didn't think that got passed though.

Plus, it's still illegal for her to employ soldiers, and the soldiers might care.

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We are talking about situation where Taylor is doing a takeover and trying to conquer Procer.

 

[Nobody at all]

I… don't think I'm on Taylor's side here. I understand that what's going on is wrong and that they could be doing better, but I feel she's severely downplaying how important the culture of the nation is — because it is far more than that, at least to me. This is the soul, the life, the heart of not just Procer, but its people. This is not something that should just be waved off or changed in a few years because in some way that I just don't know how to describe, this thing that she wishes to change is to some degree above even morality.

Should the soul and identity of a nation disregard morality and completely refuse to change? No, but it works differently on a fundamental way that I don't have the words for. It cannot and should not change like Tayler wants it to so quickly, for if it does, it will be left hollow and empty of its former life. Not even Praes goes through such drastic changes, it had a twenty year lead up and some rather extreme circumstances for lesser fundamental changes, though that is partly just speculation, as we don't actually know how much it truly changed. I doubt they could let go of their scheming, backstabbing nature, so I imagine it has simply manifested into a different form. I'm probably misunderstanding and/or misremembering a lot, but these are my thoughts as they currently stand.

Unsure on my stance on Cordelia though, I'm more focused on Tayler than her.

I'll still read regardless of what happens, I just wanted to get my thoughts out, no matter how badly I failed to do so, and I think I did a pretty bad job here. (Note: my thoughts here come mainly from my experience with the game Disco Elysium, particularly the stuff involving Shivers. Go check that out if you want to at least try to understand my thoughts and perspectives more, though no promises that you'll actually get it. Don't worry about having to play the game either as I haven't actually done so, I've just watched a lot of YouTube videos about it. I don't think I would've gotten any of it if I didn't, I'm just not perceptive enough for that. Do what you will with all this, everyone, just please be civil. That is all.)

 

[Glau]

So, I like this as a cliffhanger, I think, the cold balance of power that the auger is maybe going to maintain between Cordelia and Taylor while both rebuild their power bases allows for a time skip, while we get Cat in the foreground?

I really want to see the author's take on Cat.

 

[Starseeker]

I… don't think I'm on Taylor's side here. I understand that what's going on is wrong and that they could be doing better, but I feel she's severely downplaying how important the culture of the nation is — because it is far more than that, at least to me. This is the soul, the life, the heart of not just Procer, but its people

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While that is true, you also have to consider the utter insanity of treating a 20 year civil war as 'business as usual' with a side of 'no need to change anything'.
That Taylor feels things need to change is perfectly understandable. At some point tradition alone is no longer sufficient reason to prevent any and all changes.
The fact alone that Proceran multi-side civil war is so regular it is considered part of their culture is horrifying and removes all value of keeping to these traditions, at least in my eyes.
While the speed of her envisioned changes is a problem caused by inexperience, that doesn't mean the changes aren't necessary.

 

[Roth963]

I think Taylor did the right thing, the problem here was that there was break of communication between her and Cordellia, if Cordellia understood that Taylor came to her for advice, rather than to state her desire to grab control over Procer, it might have gone better.

But as it was, Taylor came off as too hostile when she met Cordellia and everything gone downhill from there, maybe that was Bard's plan too, and Augur would have warned Cordellia otherwise that she can still work with Taylor, but I think that was mostly on Taylor for not being clear.

Taylor's complaints about Cordelia were also partially true, she was a ruthless politician who treated people as tools, but she did care about doing good as she saw it.

I think this whole thing could have been avoided if Taylor straight out came and said she was just brainstorming when she came to Cordellia and that she is looking for advice rather than settling on something final, that her pushing this was not Taylor starting centuries long war with Procer politically, but her choosing to do something than do nothing even if the solution isn't close to perfect and is unlikely to pass.

 

[Egleris]

I think Taylor did the right thing, the problem here was that there was break of communication between her and Cordellia, if Cordellia understood that Taylor came to her for advice, rather than to state her desire to grab control over Procer, it might have gone better.

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Cordelia would never have accepted that, because the fundamental thrust of the thing Taylor wanted help with was "how to constrain the power of nobles", and no matter how much she claims otherwise, Cordelia believes, at her core, that nobles are innately better than anybody else, be they commoners or wizards or priests or heroes; to accept the curtailing of nobles' power would be to go against that core belief, which is something Cordelia cannot do.

When she speaks of "the traditions of Procer", what Cordelia means is "the tradition that put Princes above everybody else", not any other, better-sounding and less self-serving tradition. She doesn't even realizes that this is wrong, because to her it's the "natural" state of things. When Taylor came to her with her proposal, she read that as a threat because, to her, it is: it's a threat to noble supremacy. There was never any chance that Taylor could have persuaded her otherwise, and if Taylor was smarter, or rather, better schooled in politics, she'd have figured that out in their first conversation.

And that's enough of an out-of-context problem that I can't even fault Songbird and Esme for failing to point it out to her - they likely also believes it to some extent, if not as much as Cordelia, they just happen to have categorized Taylor as "noble" in their mind (even if she isn't), so this is just more of the political infighting among rulers they see as normal. It wouldn't occur to them that there can't be any compromise between Cordelia's and Taylor's positions because they don't understand how fundamental the differences in their beliefs is. They don't understand that, when Taylor treats everybody equally, is because she believes everybody to be equal; they think that's just her being humble. Even Yvette, despite Taylor specifically telling her otherwise, had trouble wrapping her head around the fact that nobles aren't better than anybody else.

To make a comparison, it'd be like a country refusing to accept a law that says "a CEO must do whatever produces the most profit for the shareholder", or "a company is legally treated like a person", and instead trying to force laws like "a company that put profit above the common good will be disbanded", or "there is no legal person of the company, all shareholders of a company are immediately culpable for the actions their company takes", or such. No matter how hard you try, you won't be able to get somebody who owns a corporation to find a compromise on those points - they'll lie, say that they will do their best, and then plan how to destroy you utterly. And that's what Cordelia has done.

I don't think that Taylor needs to kill Cordelia, and certainly right now deposing her isn't really feasible, but until Taylor understands that Cordelia never was her ally, and never will be, she'll keep failing. You can't defeat an enemy until you've understood what they're fighting for.

 

[Impirius]

The fact alone that Proceran multi-side civil war is so regular it is considered part of their culture is horrifying and removes all value of keeping to these traditions, at least in my eyes.

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It is not regular, this one was the only one of its kind in the history of the Principate, lower scale Italian style merc fighting between principalities is the thing more common and you really cant stop that as long as the Principate remains semi federal-semi feudal entity.

 

[Glau]

and no matter how much she claims otherwise, Cordelia believes, at her core, that nobles are innately better than anybody else,

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I feel like this is basically declaring that you don't care what the character actually believes, because you've decided that already. And you then go on to build an argument that Taylor can never coexist with her because of the belief you project onto her.

I think you should give Cordelia more credit.

 

[Egleris]

I feel like this is basically declaring that you don't care what the character actually believes

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I feel like my judgment of her beliefs is based on what was shown to us in this specific story. You're free to disagree with my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm basing my argument on what information the textual evidence provided. If you think something in the text indicates that my read of Cordelia is mistaken, by all means, bring it up, but until then, your feelings that I am mistaken are no more valid than my feeling that I am not.

I think you should give Cordelia more credit.

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On what merits? Again, if you have textual evidence (and I mean in this story we're reading, not from whichever of the multiple existing version of PGTE that might apply) that she deserves any credit, show it to me and I'll comment on it. Otherwise, nothing she's done in this story so far has shown her as worthy of any credit at all, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Glau]

She's done as much or more than Taylor has to end the civil war and provide stability to the aftermath. She's definitely got a better claim to be the legitimate ruler.

And she understands who the real enemies are. Chain of Hunger, Dead King, Dread Empire.

So it looks like Taylor is going to tear the nation apart with the goal of making it better, and Cordelia is trying desperately to keep it together with the goal of keeping it strong enough to resist extermination.

 

[Roth963]

She's done as much or more than Taylor has to end the civil war and provide stability to the aftermath. She's definitely got a better claim to be the legitimate ruler.

And she understands who the real enemies are. Chain of Hunger, Dead King, Dread Empire.

So it looks like Taylor is going to tear the nation apart with the goal of making it better, and Cordelia is trying desperately to keep it together with the goal of keeping it strong enough to resist extermination.

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Taylor wasn't planning to tear it apart, Laurence and maybe Bard did.

Taylor wanted to make an attempt at making stuff better, likely fail, and wait until next time.

Cordelia trying to cripple the house of light was more likely to tear it apart, she relied on Taylor's desire to avoid liturgical war or kill them so that Taylor wouldn't tear the country apart in retaliation for Cordelia's actions.

 

[Glau]

Taylor wasn't planning to tear it apart, Laurence and maybe Bard did.

Taylor wanted to make an attempt at making stuff better, likely fail, and wait until next time.

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What's that they say about good intentions paving the way to hell?

Cordelia's problem is that she refused to see named as more equal than normal people, despite the world enforcing that they are. If Taylor were a non-hero head of the house of light trying to push through the same changes, Cordelia would have been a lot more justified in her assumptions.

Taylor's problem is that she did not understand the stakes around her changes.

And now they've both lost.

 

[Egleris]

She's done as much or more than Taylor has to end the civil war and provide stability to the aftermath. She's definitely got a better claim to be the legitimate ruler.

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Let's assume for a moment that this was done completely without self-interest (it was not, she did it to keep her own reign safe, but let's pretend), just to make the Principate more stable and stronger regardless of whether it'd support her afterwards or not; and I'll give to you, with absolutely no caveats, she is indeed the legitimate ruler, she had the best claim and she ensured it was respected. Granted.

How exactly does any of that goes against "the nobles are a superior tier of being to everybody else"? She's the noble, the best of them in her own eyes, and she's in charge, dictating everybody else what to do. For good reasons, sure, let's say that. It's still her in charge and everybody else under. None of that in any way challenges the worldview of noble superiority that she believes in, in fact it confirms it - the superior Prince, the one who is most noble among them, won and was put in charge.

She is the legitimate ruler of a nation that espouses noble supremacy. These two things are not in conflict. She wants to strengthen a nation that espouses noble supremacy. These two things are not in conflict either. The parts of Taylor's proposal that furthered those goals, she liked.

The parts that did not, which posited that maybe the peasants should be taught and given the chance to rise, that the organized religion should have a say in things, and the divinely ordained champions should be incorporated into the laws of the land to remove their extrajudicial status? All of those are admissions that the Princes do not stand uncontested above all, and she fought or planned to subvert them from the beginning. That is what makes me say she's unwillingly to limit the power of the nobility at an instinctual level - because she believes that the only ones who can dictate conditions to Princes are other Princes, nobody else. All of Cordelia's actions, when we examine them, are in accordance with that belief, because they stem from that belief. That's all there is to it, in my view.

As an aside: Taylor certainly never expressed any desire to rule, no matter what the High Assembly said. Her having judicial power, which means, in modern terms, separating the judicial from the legislative, as any functioning state should, in no way is her "being put in charge". The head of the executive is the one in charge, and the First Prince is still head of both the legislative and the executive in Procer; the characters in the story might well believe that splitting the power of head of the judiciary from the title of First Prince and handing it over to Taylor makes her the ruler, but we, the readers, know that that's just dictatorial nonsense.

It's sad that she wasn't able to make that argument in character, but that is what she was angling for - not rulership.