What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

I think such a development would require destabilizing China or Japan, actually, so that independent mercantile polities could develop that had an interest in establishing overseas empires. An independent Guangdong, Bengal or Kyushu would be much more interested in establishing an overseas presence, equivalent to Portugal or the Netherlands.
One of my colleagues believes that in order for Asian countries to be able to colonialism, it is necessary that the Chinese Empire of Qin Shi Huang does not exist - and as a result, more ethnic groups live in the Han territory.
 
One of my colleagues believes that in order for Asian countries to be able to colonialism, it is necessary that the Chinese Empire of Qin Shi Huang does not exist - and as a result, more ethnic groups live in the Han territory.
I mean Chinese groups already did plenty colonization, modern southern China is far from the heartland of Zhou, Qin, and Han, Chinese merchant diasporas spread across Indonesia and Southeast Asia, Chinese cultural exports were feed directly into the veins of states in modern day Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Mongolia, etc...

It's just that like the Ottoman Empire Qing China was slowly kicked out of its areas of imperialist influence and dependency by the Portuguese setting the spice trade on fire in their quest to to take its profits for themselves, followed by the Dutch, the British, the Russians, etc... and so in the rush of 19th century imperialism China wasn't able to super visibly participate. But like just because a dude trips up in the final straight away of the track and so isn't one of those who crossed that line doesn't mean that like they were never part of the race or that running was culturally alien to them or whatever the fuck, it just means that they weren't in what is only the most visible position of an entire metaphorical marathon.
 
Some historians even call the Qing push into Inner Asia as a colonization project.
Well, by the way, another colleague points out that Irredentian China is too focused on expansion into the interior of the continent, while the abbreviated version will be more focused on the sea.

As for Siberia .... no - at that time Muscovy was the only one who needed Siberia. China has no need to go there, because their northern territories are not very densely populated anyway. And of course it makes no sense for Japan to go to Kamchatka.
 
The steppes north of China aren't a truly impassable wall, but they might as well be for purposes of economic activity in a society without the railroad. There's a reason that area remained inhabited by steppe nomads continuously for millennia even as China boomed in wealth and power over and over, and a big part of it is that in the normal course of things that land is just plain undesirable and functionally inaccessible with pre-industrial logistics.
 
I thought all these places were independent for long periods of time?
Only Bengal really. As Monter notes, Kyushu stayed Japanese once it had become Japanese, and as for Guangdong, already the Han dynasty advanced that much south. And while there were periods of Chinese fragmentation, I think that has been greatly overestimated in the popular mind. And especially the South often was an area to withdraw to for Chinese dynasties when the North fragmented or was overrun. It was just that until the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms (when exactly that happened and masses of people fled south), or even until the Tang Dynasty, the South was not well populated, well developed, or even well under control, with Chinese rules often only extending only to the few cities and the roads between them, and the various hill tribes being independent.
 
Guangdong was pretty much a "frontier" in the same sense as Xinjiang up until the Opium Wars really, probably one of the reasons the Qing accepted the settlement of Nanking, it was in-line with their frontier policies with the Central Asian nomads raiding Kashgar.
 
There's a reason that area remained inhabited by steppe nomads continuously for millennia even as China boomed in wealth and power over and over, and a big part of it is that in the normal course of things that land is just plain undesirable and functionally inaccessible with pre-industrial logistics.

The Russians managed to colonise the Eurasian steppe between the sixteenth century and the early eighteenth, in other words during the pre-industrial era. Industrial logistics certainly made it easier, but they weren't required.
 
The Russians managed to colonise the Eurasian steppe between the sixteenth century and the early eighteenth, in other words during the pre-industrial era. Industrial logistics certainly made it easier, but they weren't required.
Much of Russia itself is on the Eurasian steppe, or is only marginally more productive than it while using European cultivation systems and food packages. The same is not true of China; the centers of agriculture in China were far from the steppe, and the hugely productive rice cultivation system in particular was difficult to transplant.

Also, Russia started to colonize Siberia in large part to supply the European fur fad, a trade system China was never a part of.
 
In fairness, the turning point was probably guns rather than railroads- though railroads were the thing needed to really make it stick, I suspect.
 
Also, Russia started to colonize Siberia in large part to supply the European fur fad, a trade system China was never a part of.

That's true, which in turn is due to how fur products had become a luxury item in Europe. That was, of course, also a large part of the earliest European settlement in Northern North America - what drew people there, what made those colonies money, was the fur trade. It makes me wonder whether, maybe, we could see a China expanding north if we see a similar "fur fad" in China, with furs becoming a luxury item there as well. Beijing would be north enough for winter fur clothes, though I suppose much of the rest of the country not so much...
 
To you what is the most boring kind of alt history scenario? For me I grow board of scenarios where it's just the 1800s but slightly different with a slightly different great war. It makes me snore unless you've got snazzy names for things. Confederate timelines are cliche but at least it's different in that there's an entirely new country that exists, wow.
 
Last edited:
I thought all these places were independent for long periods of time?

They were, in some sense. Guangdong was at the least for one or two Chinese states, a seat of power. Bengal was the center of several states, and by the Muromachi period of Japan you had a powerful technically independent clan here and there. But the issue is less decentralization of regions which existed heavily for feudal Japan, and for when Muslim empire in India broke up, and more you would have to try and fight off some political trends of each region.

I have a Japan that colonized in the pervious version of a timeline I have here, but these colonies are largely ran by feudal clans similar to OTL Hokkaido. Japan is still plagued by underlying feudalism that even when it was managed by the Tokugawa it still could effectively break down, and did so before the Boshin War, so I argue it's more political structure could make industrialization difficult than anything that requires a region to break up.

To you what is the most boring kind of alt history scenario?

U.S wanks, and England Wanks especially the Tudors.
 
To you what is the most boring kind of alt history scenario?
Every single one in which everything is different except fucking South America, but not like in an understandable way in a well France is the world hegemon but everything is the same" and also in every single one in which the US somehow manages to annex Mexico and make it into states two years after it being invaded.

Also don't see the appeal in Brit wanks but they are still very common, to the point in which I haven't manages to fnd a France wank or even a decent TL about it.
 
It makes me wonder whether, maybe, we could see a China expanding north if we see a similar "fur fad" in China, with furs becoming a luxury item there as well. Beijing would be north enough for winter fur clothes, though I suppose much of the rest of the country not so much...

Doesn't Buddhism have a thing against leather? I don't see a fur fad being popular in the East.
 
That's true, which in turn is due to how fur products had become a luxury item in Europe. That was, of course, also a large part of the earliest European settlement in Northern North America - what drew people there, what made those colonies money, was the fur trade. It makes me wonder whether, maybe, we could see a China expanding north if we see a similar "fur fad" in China, with furs becoming a luxury item there as well. Beijing would be north enough for winter fur clothes, though I suppose much of the rest of the country not so much...

Fur and timber. The latter particularly for the British.
 
Last edited:
To you what is the most boring kind of alt history scenario? For me I grow board of scenarios where it's just the 1800s but slightly different with a slightly different great war. It makes me snore unless you've got snazzy names for things. Confederate timelines are cliche but at least it's different in that there's an entirely new country that exists, wow.
War focus as a whole bore me. I prefer to see the social and cultural and economic effects of alternate history. I think that dystopian or overly chaotic and violent worlds are also boring as a result, unless they balance the destruction with a lot of development somewhere else.

I'd also say that most scenarios involving the US tend to bore me outside of things like averting the ARW or having a much better reconstruction. This is because I have grown to dislike the US as an entity in AH due to how people basically make manifest destiny literal destiny, which interfere too much with my preferred scenarios. Anything involving the British Empire also bores me, with the exception of British America.

Post-1900 really loses my interest as a whole, as I just find it to be too limiting in terms of divergence. I think the only thing I'd really be interested from such late scenarios is a continuing Taisho Japan.

Anything involving the USSR tends to lose my interest. I just find it and Nazi Germany to be for the most part boring (Though I do tend to find the idea of continuing monarchial Germany and Russia to be interesting, especially when the latter is heavily reformed and industrialized.) Really, anything involving fascism and Communism as we know them quickly lose my interest. I must also say that I tend to loath Prussia focus.

Tbh, I'd say that for the most part, scenarios that are before 1500 and after 1800 bore me as a rule. Though paradoxically, I am only interested in works that have such an early pod, but that also jump closer to our modern Era (post 1860s), rather then stick so much to the date of the pod.
 
Last edited:
Stop: Stop
This is the important bit, a shockingly high murder rate is not genocide.

I don't want to downplay the situation but if you compare it to the Holocaust, Rwanda, the Armenian genocide, etc the differences should be clear.

I am not claiming that it's not a horrific issue, simply that not every bad thing has to be genocide and that it stretches the definition to meaninglessness to use it in this manner.
stop When discussing sensitive topics such as this, a degree of mindfulness must be used. This post lacked that, and has thus been infracted under Rule Four: Don't be Disruptive
 
I'd also say that most scenarios involving the US tend to bore me outside of things like averting the ARW or having a much better reconstruction. This is because I have grown to dislike the US as an entity in AH due to how people basically make manifest destiny literal destiny, which interfere too much with my preferred scenarios. Anything involving the British Empire also bores me, with the exception of British America.

Have you ever looked at Flint's 1812: The Rivers of War and it's sequel? They give the Westward expansion and lead-up to the Civil War a good shaking by the throat.
 
Some historians even call the Qing push into Inner Asia as a colonization project.
If one thinks of what the Russians did in Inner Asia was colonization it is hard to describe the Qing/Manchu efforts as something different.

In fairness, the turning point was probably guns rather than railroads- though railroads were the thing needed to really make it stick, I suspect.
Economically, Central Asia was knee-capped by oceanic trade routes opening up (think of withering inland towns bypassed by interstates, then scale it up a lot).

Militarily? Yeah, once firearms got to a certain level of effectiveness the polities on the steppe had to either secure a power base that made them (almost invariably getting functionally borged in the long run), get in very good with such a polity (vassal/proxy/protectorate deal, think Crimean Khans or the Cossack Hetmanate at best), or fall back out of reach (reach extends and room runs out).

Have you ever looked at Flint's 1812: The Rivers of War and it's sequel? They give the Westward expansion and lead-up to the Civil War a good shaking by the throat.
Flint holds to the 'No Way To Contain The Anglo Settlement' school of thought. He simply disrupts what that means politically (Cherokees and demi-Cherokees running a fair sized independent polity rather than getting shoved off further into the margins).
 
Back
Top