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What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

Terran Allias said:
If that were the case the Coalition of Western Republics would've won, and he doesn't believe that he and others is worthless and must work for the good of the state like the united technocracies of man
Timeline 15 RVB
This map gives me the impression of him being libertarian right, but even he states it's not perfect
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>totally not a fascist
>"in my ideal world 40k is bigger than Star Wars, no more SJW's"
 
Hakazin said:
Fascism-adjacency, then. Not like there's an effective difference.
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That's stupid, the effective difference is that conservative politics lacks total state control, a cult of personality, and conformist culture. Which is a radical shift from preserving the status quo
 
Terran Allias said:
That's stupid, the effective difference is that conservative politics lacks total state control, a cult of personality, and conformist culture. Which is a radical shift from preserving the status quo
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Fascism is an ideology that fundamentally seeks to preserve the status quo. Through violence and repression, true, but if you're not on the receiving end, you won't really notice a difference. Because of this, many conservatives tend to have an irritating habit of excusing, ignoring, and generally enabling fascists because, at the end of the day, they want the same goals, it's just that fascists are willing to put in work to achieve them.

Let me put it another way. If you have an opportunity to stop a murder with no real risk to yourself, and you don't because you dislike the victim, you fundamentally share responsibility for that murder.
 
Hakazin said:
Fascism is an ideology that fundamentally seeks to preserve the status quo. Through violence and repression, true, but if you're not on the receiving end, you won't really notice a difference. Because of this, many conservatives tend to have an irritating habit of excusing, ignoring, and generally enabling fascists because, at the end of the day, they want the same goals, it's just that fascists are willing to put in work to achieve them.

Let me put it another way. If you have an opportunity to stop a murder with no real risk to yourself, and you don't because you dislike the victim, you fundamentally share responsibility for that murder.
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This is the same thing as when they call democrats communists, who also share similar goals of helping the commonfolk through government programs and enable socialists. It's the exact same not to sound like a centrist
 
Terran Allias said:
This is the same thing as when they call democrats communists, who also share similar goals of helping the commonfolk through government programs and enable socialists. It's the exact same not to sound like a centrist
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Tell me, have you ever actually met a socialist? Because there is a fundamental difference between social democracy, which is the farthest left the Democratic Party is willing to go, and actual socialism. Mainly about the moral legitimacy of the capitalist system, which is a large enough disagreement that, if you have any actual knowledge of the groups in question, you can't actually compare the two in good faith.

And, frankly, you don't sound like a centrist. You sound like someone who's been duped by the idiotic 'bothsides' narrative that the American Right cooked up so that they don't have to acknowledge the moral questionability of enabling literal fascists in exchange for votes.
 
Hakazin said:
Tell me, have you ever actually met a socialist? Because there is a fundamental difference between social democracy, which is the farthest left the Democratic Party is willing to go, and actual socialism. Mainly about the moral legitimacy of the capitalist system, which is a large enough disagreement that, if you have any actual knowledge of the groups in question, you can't actually compare the two in good faith.

And, frankly, you don't sound like a centrist. You sound like someone who's been duped by the idiotic 'bothsides' narrative that the American Right cooked up so that they don't have to acknowledge the moral questionability of enabling literal fascists in exchange for votes.
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Tell, me have you ever met a fascist, Because there is a fundamental difference between traditional values, which is the farthest the GOP is willing to go, and actual fascism, mainly about the moral legitimacy progress for progress sake, of which is a large enough disagreement that if you have enough groups in question, you can't actually compare the two in good faith.
 
Terran Allias said:
Tell, me have you ever met a fascist, Because there is a fundamental difference between traditional values, which is the farthest the GOP is willing to go, and actual fascism, mainly about the moral legitimacy progress for progress sake, of which is a large enough disagreement that if you have enough groups in question, you can't actually compare the two in good faith.
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First off, I actually have had the unfortunate occurrence of having to deal, and argue with, with fascists for prolonged periods. It's the sort of thing that happens if one regularly tries to point out that the Imperium of Man are not the good guys in 40K. Furthermore, I try to make a habit of keeping up-to-date on the current rhetoric and tactics of the far-right.

Second, do you actually have an augment beyond mocking imitation that merely attempts to repeat a false narrative of both sides being the same?
Terran Allias said:
There more like prisons, and nobody called those concentration camps unless some tragic catastrophe happens. Plus those camps existed since Bill Clinton
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Except for some random nobody named Joe Arpaio, of course. I mean, he only set them up and managed them. Hardly a reliable source.
 
Hakazin said:
Fascism is an ideology that fundamentally seeks to preserve the status quo.
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That's not true.

See for instance futurism and Marinetto in Italian fascism.

What's true is that fascism almost always strives after a society partly or wholly based on a idealised, static model from a mythic and mysticised past.

(also as a general comment: don't mix up fascism and authoritarian conservatism. Although it might be easy for outsiders to lump them as mere different variants of right-wing extremism, there is significant ideological distinctions in some areas)
 
xa na xa said:
That's not true.

See for instance futurism and Marinetto in Italian fascism.

What's true is that fascism almost always strives after a society partly or wholly based on a idealised, static model from a mythic and mysticised past.

(also as a general comment: don't mix up fascism and authoritarian conservatism. Although it might be easy for outsiders to lump them as mere different variants of right-wing extremism, there is significant ideological distinctions in some areas)
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Alright, that's fair. How about 'seeks to preserve the power of the establishment through pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric', is that more accurate?
 
Hakazin said:
First off, I actually have had the unfortunate occurrence of having to deal, and argue with, with fascists for prolonged periods. It's the sort of thing that happens if one regularly tries to point out that the Imperium of Man are not the good guys in 40K. Furthermore, I try to make a habit of keeping up-to-date on the current rhetoric and tactics of the far-right.

Second, do you actually have an augment beyond mocking imitation that merely attempts to repeat a false narrative of both sides being the same?


Except for some random nobody named Joe Arpaio, of course. I mean, he only set them up and managed them. Hardly a reliable source.
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I doubt concentration camps were meant to hold people temporarily and release them later unless the Madagascar plan worked out, and I've dealt with deluded communists and idiotic Nazis who have knowledge on economics and politics
Hakazin said:
Alright, that's fair. How about 'seeks to preserve the power of the establishment through pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric', is that more accurate?
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Now your getting into NazBol, since conservatism doesn't revolutionize anything.
 
Terran Allias said:
I doubt concentration camps were meant to hold people temporarily and release them later unless the Madagascar plan worked out, and I've dealt with deluded communists and idiotic Nazis who have knowledge on economics and politics

Now your getting into NazBol, since conservatism doesn't revolutionize anything.
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Did you miss the fact that Joe Arpaio was running the goddamn camps when he referred to them as concentration camps? Either way, intent of release is irrelevant to whether or not something qualifies as a concentration camp. I mean, do you only think something counts as a concentration camp if it has gas chambers and a crematory? Because that's factually incorrect, given that the phrase entered wide usage due to the English creating a number of camps in South Africa during the Second Boer War, and they weren't systemically murdering the Boers. Trying to claim a requirement of active, premeditated, and systemic killings for something to qualify as a concentration camp is completely and totally disingenuous.

And, as I said, pseudo-revolutionary. There is, in fact, an actual difference between someone advocating a revolution against the oppressive capitalists as opposed to someone advocating a revolution against the supposed Jewish communist banking conspiracy. Besides, NazBols are just Neo-Nazis who like Stalin. They're hardly left-wing by any means.

And, furthermore, I notice that you haven't actually addressed my main point that enabling a group is a form of support directed toward that group. Are you actually going to get around to that point, or are you just going to keep dodging around it?
 
Hakazin said:
do you only think something counts as a concentration camp if it has gas chambers and a crematory?
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No, I use it to refer to the concentration of a population, ie confining them and slowing population growth of a demographic to manageable levels. Like the camps for natives
Hakazin said:
And, as I said, pseudo-revolutionary. There is, in fact, an actual difference between someone advocating a revolution against the oppressive capitalists as opposed to someone advocating a revolution against the supposed Jewish communist banking conspiracy. Besides, NazBols are just Neo-Nazis who like Stalin. They're hardly left-wing by any means
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Jews tend to run capitalist systems in these conspiracies, whereas in reality it's a bit more diverse.
Hakazin said:
And, furthermore, I notice that you haven't actually addressed my main point that enabling a group is a form of support directed toward that group. Are you actually going to get around to that point, or are you just going to keep dodging around it?
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No. The democrats enable the socialists with promises of government funded programs. A lot of them that aren't hard core Soviets latch on to this.
 
Terran Allias said:
No. The democrats enable the socialists with promises of government funded programs. A lot of them that aren't hard core Soviets latch on to this.
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So you are admitting that a large number of conservatives in the USA are implicitly supporting fascism, then. Good to know. I mean, you're equating that to liberals passing welfare to keep socialists of their backs because, as we all know, that's just as bad as ethnic cleansing, but hey, at least it's a step toward acknowledging the actual truth of the matter!:V

I'm going to step away from this now, because, quite frankly, you're never going to acknowledge that one side might be objectively worse than the other.
 
Hakazin said:
So you are admitting that a large number of conservatives in the USA are implicitly supporting fascism, then. Good to know. I mean, you're equating that to liberals passing welfare to keep socialists of their backs because, as we all know, that's just as bad as ethnic cleansing, but hey, at least it's a step toward acknowledging the actual truth of the matter!:V

I'm going to step away from this now, because, quite frankly, you're never going to acknowledge that one side might be objectively worse than the other.
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And you won't acknowledge that this site is a god damn echo chamber that punishes wrong think
 
xa na xa said:
That's not true.

See for instance futurism and Marinetto in Italian fascism.

What's true is that fascism almost always strives after a society partly or wholly based on a idealised, static model from a mythic and mysticised past.

(also as a general comment: don't mix up fascism and authoritarian conservatism. Although it might be easy for outsiders to lump them as mere different variants of right-wing extremism, there is significant ideological distinctions in some areas)
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Futurism was a distinct trend, separate from and predating fascism (by ten years, at least) which was later attached to the movement because of a lot of common bedfellows, and because ultimately it lacked any popular appeal of its own. But futurism was never the dominant or even an important tendency within Italian fascism, it was always on the fringe and barely tolerated by Mussolini, probably because it was never really developed beyond an art style and a vague desire to be edgy and different.

So I'd say "fascism seeks to preserve the status quo" is a fairly accurate statement.
 
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Italian futurism was 50% misogyny, 30% hating pasta, 10% hating the Papacy, 5% glorification of war and authoritarianism, 4% art by people who clearly wish they could be drawing sequential art or animation instead, 1% actual political theory and 0% relevant.
 
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