What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

I thought that Europe did survive culturally but got invaded by some Islamic state and largely converted to Islam. Why would there be a "Majjaristan" or "Venezzia"? Also IIRC Novogorod is still Christian as well
Europe survived culturally in the same sense that the Native Americans survived culturally in our timeline- that is to say, not, but a lot of their place names are still plastered all over the landscape and a lot of the people now inhabiting their land are one-thirty-second French or whatever.

So "Venezzia" is "Venezzia" because the Muslim settlers who founded a city on or near the site of modern Venice knew the name of the city from their own records and chose to use that name. Not because there was a coherent Venetian city-state still occupying the lagoon to be subdued by Muslim conquerors, in the normal sense that we use "conquest" as distinct from "colonization."
 
Europe survived culturally in the same sense that the Native Americans survived culturally in our timeline- that is to say, not, but a lot of their place names are still plastered all over the landscape and a lot of the people now inhabiting their land are one-thirty-second French or whatever.

So "Venezzia" is "Venezzia" because the Muslim settlers who founded a city on or near the site of modern Venice knew the name of the city from their own records and chose to use that name. Not because there was a coherent Venetian city-state still occupying the lagoon to be subdued by Muslim conquerors, in the normal sense that we use "conquest" as distinct from "colonization."
huh, I thought it was more like Muslim expansion elsewhere where the underlying cultural substrate remained somewhat intact but with a layer of Islam on top.

(It's been a while since I read it though)
 
Europe survived culturally in the same sense that the Native Americans survived culturally in our timeline- that is to say, not, but a lot of their place names are still plastered all over the landscape and a lot of the people now inhabiting their land are one-thirty-second French or whatever.

Yeah it's kinda terrifying to realize how much of America is named after people they killed :confused:
 
huh, I thought it was more like Muslim expansion elsewhere where the underlying cultural substrate remained somewhat intact but with a layer of Islam on top.

(It's been a while since I read it though)

Yeah, Europe's a cultural backwater. I haven't read it in awhile but IIRC @Simon_Jester has the gist of it - the Muslim world basically colonizes Europe in a way similar to the settlement of the Americas. There are pockets of people who managed to survive the plague (I think the British Isles, Scandinavia, and Iceland rode things out slightly better but as I said, it's been awhile since I've read it), but they're scattered and disorganized and are quickly subsumed into the new waves of settlement. Some names and bits and bobs of culture survive, but the comparison the modern day Native Americans/First Nations isn't off.
 
I'm a couple pages late but the only reason it's 'cringe' is because the book's premise is that it happened to white people instead of Native Americans/Aboriginals/Africans/Asians.
 
I'm a couple pages late but the only reason it's 'cringe' is because the book's premise is that it happened to white people instead of Native Americans/Aboriginals/Africans/Asians.
Looking at what people are ACTUALLY listing as the reason for the cringe, no, I think that's unfair.

The other reason The Years of Rice and Salt gets flak is rather different. Namely, that it takes what took centuries of deliberate conquistadoring and a dozen or so overlapping simultaneous virgin field epidemics to happen to the Americas, and compresses it all into ten years and a single apocalyptic plague to happen in Europe.

This causes a lot of people to think "wait, is that physically plausible, could that actually happen in a world in which cause and effect and scientific fact and epidemiology seem to work the same way they do in real life?"

And they would think exactly the same thing, I suspect, if the same author had done the same thing only with the plague killing everyone in the Indian subcontinent while leaving the rest of Eurasia untouched, or killing everyone in China while leaving the rest of Eurasia untouched.

...

Personally I don't have a problem with it, for two reasons:

One is that the story, viewed from a Doylist perspective, isn't a giant conga line of triumphal "see how shitty/wonderful white people are and how much better/worse off the world is without them" rhetoric- it isn't somehow an anti-white mirror image of what a white nationalist would do with a similar premise. The world proceeds differently than in real life, but with the notable exception that the Native Americans are a hell of a lot better off, a lot of the same evils and problems are clearly recognizable as happening in the altered timeline.

The other is that, in the spirit of John Campbell's guidelines for storytelling*, a novel like The Years of Rice and Salt gets one "freebie" departure from plausible reality, in order to set up the premise of the story itself. So long as the rest of the setting is handled consistently with internal logic, the main characters aren't running around being idiots in a first-order idiot plot, and the story premise doesn't require everyone to be an idiot in a second-order idiot plot... I'm happy. I'm OK with the scientific implausibility of a single virus wiping out 99% of the population within a single delimited blob on a map, while leaving everyone and everything else on Earth virtually untouched.
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*(Campbell's guidelines are not the only guidelines, and not the best guidelines. But they're good guidelines, I think. Guidelines that do in my opinion have the ability to create some good art that could not be easily created with other rules. Sort of like how you can do things with haiku that you cannot do with any other form of poetry, and achieve an aesthetic result that other poetry cannot reproduce)
 
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Another case - polish again.
There is good writer, Marcin Ciszewski/mainly detective stories/ who wrote few AH books starting with www.1939.com.pl.
They are well written, but problem is - he send into 1939 500 modern polish soldiers with tanks,APC and guns.AAAnd....basically,nothing,nul,zero .France still not attacked in 1939,everybody acted as in OTL, only major difference is that we win Warsaw uprising in 1944,but soviets take over Poland just like in OTL.
There is love plot where polish commander get american modern soldier as waifu/she was send with polish unit/,but sending people into past only to get that result....
In last book from cycle, Kapitan Jamróz, he actually changed future for good, but it was after 4 books which changed very little.
 
Oh I mean as long as we're talking about foreign AH, we gotta address the cottage industry of cringe as fuck alternate history novels written by Russian reactionaries.
 
Russian Nationalists. People who can bemoan the fall of the Tsars, AND the collapse of the Soviet Union, in the same sentence, while completely missing the irony.
The thing you have to understand is that they're mostly concerned with Russia's power and the respect it commands on the world stage.
 
Uphold the enlightened ideology of Marxist-Tsarism. The Tsar is the vanguard of the revolution!
Please don't give Mladrossi more attention than it already has, I'm so tired of "haha funny MonCom gang" memery in alternate history, especially hearts of Iron mods.

Yes, it's weird for someone to be both a monarchist and a socialist. Please, hearts of iron community, find another joke.
 
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Please don't give Mladrossi more attention than it already has, I'm so tired of "haha funny MonCom gang" memery in alternate history, especially hearts of Iron mods.
Sounds like we have an unbeliever, the Народный Охрана Внутренних Дел (NOVD) will take you to the Gulag for your anti-monarchist and anti-revolutionary ideals!
 
Sounds like we have an unbeliever, the Народный Охрана Внутренних Дел (NOVD) will take you to the Gulag for your anti-monarchist and anti-revolutionary ideals!
I can't show you how much I'm rolling my eyes right now, but rest assured that they are being given a full rotation.
 
You know what they say, "A rotation a day keeps the insane Russian ideologies away". That is what they say right?
I'm a Russian (and German) national and brush into the Russophonic alternate history community quite often, believe me when I say Mladrossi has long since exhausted any comedic potential for me. I now physically cringe every time another althist writer or HoI modder just discovered Mladrossi on Wikipedia and wants to share the "joke" with everyone else.
 
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I'm a Russian (and German) national and brush into the Russophonic alternate history community quite often, believe me when I say Mladrossi has long since exhausted any comedic potential for me. I now physically cringe every time another althist or HoI modder just discovered Mladrossi on Wikipedia and wants to share the "joke" with everyone else.
Who is Mladrossi? Is he still alive or something?
 
Who is Mladrossi? Is he still alive or something?
It's not a who, it was a group. Mladorossi were an interwar group amongst the Russian emigre community that ended up with the idea that a Tsar would totally be compatible with the Soviet system.

TBH, of 'monarchist communists', I find the Carlist Party funnier and more interesting.
 
The real issues I have with the 'Muslims conquer Europe' - other than the fact that they are usually xenophobic propaganda in my experience, is the fact that they have the conquest of Europe take place incredibly rapidly after whichever PoD - whether it be the fall of Constantinople in 717 or the Battle of Tours. It really stands out after reading about the Muslim conquest of India - which even in the face of comparatively fragmented opposition took centuries to accomplish and allowed for the development of indigineous Islamic dynasties as well as foreign immigrants. In addition, if say the Ummayds conquer Constantinople in 717, then that is going to have a huge impact when whatever equavilent to the Abbasid revolution strikes the Caliphate because somebody is going to have a really defensible site to be the capital of an independent empire - it is highly unlikely Europe would be conquered by the Caliphate, although there might be European caliphates.

Hell, we have fairly good examples of how Islam spread into certain predominantly Christian societies when we look at the Ottoman Balkans, including the two countries in Europe: Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania, which are majority-Muslim today. Islamophobes, kind of weirdly, have this tendency to treat Islam as some kind of super-religion: easily spreading into new societies if only we don't have HARD MEN making HARD DECISIONS to DEFEND CIVILISATION. And that without the aforementioned hard men that surely Europe shall fall under the crescent.

But like, realistically, Islam spreading into more of Europe than historically would probably follow similar patterns to how it spread in the Ottoman Balkans*: elites would convert to Islam for pragmatic reasons and people under said elites would convert as well. This was especially the case in Albania because of Albania's extremely decentralised society that concentrated power in the hands of various regional nobles and clan leaders.

For more specific examples, it's not terribly infeasible to imagine Russia as a country where Islam is at the very least more commonplace and maybe even a majority religion. Russia had extensive links to the Muslim world to a far greater extent than much of Europe and adopting Islam would greatly strengthen Russia's ties to the extremely rich and extremely powerful Muslim world.

Although I caution against too strongly dismissing the often very real religiosity and faith that motivates religious conversions, we do also have to recognise that adopting new religions is a political matter for many rulers and that a ruler converting to a new religion is often the start of that religion's dominance in any given society.

*The Ottomans kind of discouraged this because Muslim converts paid less in taxes than their Christian subjects did and so actually the Ottomans at times would discourage the spread of Islam. Not only because of taxation but also likely to prevent religious tensions which could cause revolts*

And, for that matter, parts of India in the extreme south never did fall under Muslim rule, while other parts remained under it for only a relatively short time at the Mughal Empire's peak. Even had Western colonialism not "pressed pause" on the religious dynamics of the subcontinent to some extent, it is entirely likely that even today, a thousand years after Mahmud of Ghazni, Hinduism would be a very strong religion in India.

Certainly, India was not conquered by the Umayyads or the Abbasids, but by fragmentary Muslim dynasties on the periphery of the Muslim-controlled world who were themselves relatively recently converted and highly warlike cultures.

Similar dynamics would likely be in place in Europe.

Hinduism has historically tended to be really resilient to competition from other religions. Even before the arrival of Islam, Buddhism basically all but died out in India despite being its literal country of origin (there was also a considerable Hellenic role in the spread of Buddhism but that's another story) precisely because of an extremely strong Hindu resurgence.
 
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Hinduism has historically tended to be really resilient to competition from other religions. Even before the arrival of Islam, Buddhism basically all but died out in India despite being its literal country of origin (there was also a considerable Hellenic role in the spread of Buddhism but that's another story) precisely because of an extremely strong Hindu resurgence.
To unpack this a bit more, what we think of as Hinduism actually emerged in reaction to Buddhism and other religious movements that existed around the same time as Buddhism. There were a bunch of these movements around at the time; only Buddhism and Jainism survive today, although others were present for a while. Those movements were pretty effective at displacing the older religion (loosely called Vedism or Brahmanism) , but in turn the later Hindu synthesis also did a pretty good job of displacing them. Jainism survived as a small minority in parts of India, and Buddhism declined over most of the subcontinent save for a few holdouts.

The Hindu synthesis also worked pretty well by co-opting Buddhism, with some Hindu groups considering the Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu. Many Hindus considered (and still consider) Buddhism to be another form of Hinduism. (Buddhists, of course, usually disagree).

So, I'd say that the modern synthesis of Hinduism is resilient precisely because it arose in response to other competing religious beliefs (Buddhism, Jainism, Charvakas, Ajivikas, etc).
 
The thing you have to understand is that they're mostly concerned with Russia's power and the respect it commands on the world stage.
If tyrants taking over Russia was effective, you would be right.
But - they never were.
If tsars were effective,they would develop Russia at least as good as USA.They did not.
If soviets were effective, they would not fall on their own after few years of competition with Reagan.

Problem is, then when you sacrifise your freedom for greatnest of country,you would be lacking both of them.Becouse we live in age of technology,and only free people could made technological progress.
Using masses of slaves was good, when humanity fought with spears or muskets, it is no longer effective in age of computers.

People who cry after both tsars and soviets are not only immoral,but also ineffective.
 
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