Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
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- Queen City of the Ohio
What if the native Americans had bullshitium potions to cure European diseases?
- Thread starter Mook
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Richardson
CAN YOU HEAR THE PEOPLE SING?
- Location
- Yes
Except, as we're discovering now, they WERE, and they just didn't build in a way that left easy to find records for the most part, and were already all dead by the time the europeans got to the north. They did find a massive trading city near the Hudson Bay complete with an honest to god FIRE DEPARTMENT. These guys were in fact actually organized, and would likely have kicked the shit out of the europeans once they realized what they missed.
On a City State level, possibly more given the Iroquois.
I'm not saying they can't do what Greece failed to do, they very well could. I am pointing out that at first, they won't have it and will need to develop it.
There is another concern. A much...more longterm concern. About what the USA represented.
It represented the fact that yes, Europeans from all over the continent an kind of get along and make something great. Nationality doesn't have to be a dividing line. Eventually, the USA even demonstrated that multiple races, one with a massive and legitimate grudge against the other, can coexist and in fact make attempts to look beyond past wrongs. In the same instance, it demonstrated that former slaves, even treated brutally, don't always rise up en masse in violence ASAP, and are capable of just moving on to the best of their ability. The USA demonstrated the fact, the undeniable fact, that a multicultural society, with at least two massively(in appearance and origin) different races, can not only co-exist, but prosper beyond the wildests fantasies of people.
Long before the USA spoke the words, it led, it demonstrated, it proved, the Modern Multicultural Creed, that in fact, multicultural empires do not have to be Ruler People and Subjects, Dominator and Captive, or Master and Servant, Occupier and Native, Conqueror and Victim. Like the Persians, the Romans, and the British.
If the Industrial Revolution occurs, and the same proto-Nazi esque attitudes become adopted, what nation shall stand testament that there is another way? What nation shall inspire and drive abolitionism as anything other than an afterthought, with little economic relevance? What nation shall show the world, even as it commits great treachery and evil in its construction, that such evil and treachery against those deemed sufficiently different or simply The Enemy is not necessary nor a morally righteous choice?
What prevents the technologically superior Europeans from brutally and horrifically shitstomping large sections of the globe with the machine gun, barbed wire and battle rifle come into play? What inspires Europe to even bother telling the Germans to cool it the fuck off in Africa, or care about what Leopold does to an
Inferior race?Is the world trading one apocalypse for another?
Well, as long as theyre not the Irish. Or Black. Or Amerindians.
What? Read the entire post, it includes reference to the last two, and the first is utterly irrelevant. Mild discrimination, on a historical scale, is in no way comparable to whole scale slaughter, or whole scale enslavement and perpetual impoverishment.
Its almost nobody reads the entirety of my posts, and just skims it for things they want to "prove wrong".
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- Somewhere in the stacks
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On a City State level, possibly more given the Iroquois.
I'm not saying they can't do what Greece failed to do, they very well could. I am pointing out that at first, they won't have it and will need to develop it.
There is another concern. A much...more longterm concern. About what the USA represented.
It represented the fact that yes, Europeans from all over the continent an kind of get along and make something great. Nationality doesn't have to be a dividing line. Eventually, the USA even demonstrated that multiple races, one with a massive and legitimate grudge against the other, can coexist and in fact make attempts to look beyond past wrongs. In the same instance, it demonstrated that former slaves, even treated brutally, don't always rise up en masse in violence ASAP, and are capable of just moving on to the best of their ability. The USA demonstrated the fact, the undeniable fact, that a multicultural society, with at least two massively(in appearance and origin) different races, can not only co-exist, but prosper beyond the wildests fantasies of people.
Long before the USA spoke the words, it led, it demonstrated, it proved, the Modern Multicultural Creed, that in fact, multicultural empires do not have to be Ruler People and Subjects, Dominator and Captive, or Master and Servant, Occupier and Native, Conqueror and Victim. Like the Persians, the Romans, and the British.
If the Industrial Revolution occurs, and the same proto-Nazi esque attitudes become adopted, what nation shall stand testament that there is another way? What nation shall inspire and drive abolitionism as anything other than an afterthought, with little economic relevance? What nation shall show the world, even as it commits great treachery and evil in its construction, that such evil and treachery against those deemed sufficiently different or simply The Enemy is not necessary nor a morally righteous choice?
What prevents the technologically superior Europeans from brutally and horrifically shitstomping large sections of the globe with the machine gun, barbed wire and battle rifle come into play? What inspires Europe to even bother telling the Germans to cool it the fuck off in Africa, or care about what Leopold does to an
Is the world trading one apocalypse for another?
You realize that Great Britain banned slavery and the slave trade before the United States, right? There were others fighting the Nazis before the US was in the war, Europeans who decried the extermination of the Jews and the mistreatment of natives in European colonies.
The man who worked the hardest and the longest to expose the excesses of Leopold in the Congo was British.
You ignore that the same "proto-Naziesque" attitudes from the Industrial Revolution that you decry in Europe were rampant in the United States as well, you completely ignore the fact that until very, very recently, within living memory, even, the relationship between the United States and Native Americans and the descendants of former slaves was very much "Conqueror and Victim" or "Master and Servant" or any of the categories you threw up there.
Essentially this post lacks any sort of historical perspective or understanding.
It had economic relevance during OTL. It just won't be a big deal now. It'll be nothing more than a footnote. Irrelevant to a greater social context. In fact, it might happen even earlier, since the British have no reason to pander to rich slave owners...in the colonies
What the fuck is your point? Exactly?
Based on what? The people are equal and shooting people and treating them brutally because you can is wrong. But why? Why care? Is their any proof that we actually can all get along? The USA was that proof. What is anyone going to point to to say "Freedom and liberty for all" can actually work?
Irrelevant, as this is a truly massive divergence from history.
No, I didn't. You put words into my posts where none exist. This accusation will be summarily ignored as bullshit
Read. And understand. Did not Irish, Germans, and Jews not count as different during those years? After slavery ended, did the Blacks rise up in revolt, were they simply slaughtered? Nope, they simply occupied a space right beside poor white trash in the eyes of the rich.
Your response lacks it as well.
Not to mention inventing things out of whole cloth.
So tell me. What will they point to to say that they could theoretically treat the "Lesser Races" as they would term it, as equals, what land will uphold, as its public and national creed, regardless of how well they lived it from our perspective, the belief that all men are equal under God and have inalienable rights that are crimes to deny them? France? Will France undergo a similar revolution during that time? And if it never demonstrates what a revolution can really accomplish, how much of the 19th century and historical development is utterly aborted? Would Marx even be born? What about the Dutch-Anglo War, how do those turn out? Any major difference? I can definitely see a Dutch crushing of the Anglo fleets having disastrous and interesting consequences during the 3rd war. Or any of the wars.
Like, I really don't think you understand how much this changes in the timeline. For all we know, the Ottomans remain a major power well into the 20th century, having turned the Mediterranean into a permanent lake, making South Africa more important for all those looking to avoid them.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
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- She/Her
Yeah the timeline changes are going to be heug. The Spanish for instance funded all their shit by the lolhuge piles of silver that they brought over, hell they collapsed the Ottoman economy, they brought so much over.
All that stuff that Spain did after 1492? Gone.
All that stuff that Spain did after 1492? Gone.
- Location
- Luton Airport
They also collapsed their own economy as well, of course.
When your point is that America was the only one to show that something is possible, having it be based one one such act(massacre of Native Americans), and having it be a much later adopter of another(banning slavery) isn't a good argument, and I would say that bringing those points up is sufficient to prove that your argument is ill-thought MURICA-wank.
Who else showed it? At all? With like, even the vaguest public pretense of it?
Oh right, nobody anybody cared about. Which is in fact, my point. Everybody else, up until the 20th century was either an even bigger bag of dicks or never even pretended in the whole equality thing. Not even a little bit. This matters, because we are discussing exactly where this entirely new journey takes Europe and the world, and how it could end very badly. Except for maybe the Japanese. They do better. For themselves.
America is a hypocritical? Okay, but that only works when you accuse America of being a proponent of something in the first place.
The fuck? You're the one saying they they're a proponent of it! That's your entire fucking point!
Um...you contradicted yourself almost immediately.
You talk about the US as the only one having even the vaguest pretence of all these values, and how they're so important in showing the world about them...then write off US hypocrisy because the US isn't a proponent of anything. It can't be showing off all these values without being a proponent of them.
Like, literally. By definition. There's no wiggle room.
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TLDR: Every country on the face of the earth sucks and are led by hypocritical jerks.
On topic, I don't actually know. Historically, Africa does show how colonization of already populous places goes. But in my mind I envision this working like a game of EU4 and the Cherokee proceed to godstomp everybody. Hundreds of years later, fifth grade choirs will be singing "We are proud to claim the title of Cher-O-Kee marines."
On topic, I don't actually know. Historically, Africa does show how colonization of already populous places goes. But in my mind I envision this working like a game of EU4 and the Cherokee proceed to godstomp everybody. Hundreds of years later, fifth grade choirs will be singing "We are proud to claim the title of Cher-O-Kee marines."
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Kaabu is the purple one on the left, it isn't even that big...
This one had a whole 3 million people... in 1874.
Oooh wow this one's just Mali:
Did you bother to spend any effort actually checking how large those purported "empires" are? They're all tiny things, usually smaller than most modern African countries, generally an order of magnitude smaller than the Incan empire. I actually did my homework and checked on this a while back...
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- Somewhere in the stacks
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- She/Her
You're basically ignoring the fact that all the fancy ideals you claim could only have been made an example of by the United States of America in the United States of America were written of (in the modern world) by British men, based on British ideas stretching back to the Magna Carta. Without the United States and American colonies on a large scale, the kind of institutionalized and brutal slavery that created, in part, the ugly racial attitudes of the modern Western world may not even exist. Your whole post is just a bunch of nonsense about how only the USA can show people the true path to equality and brotherhood when that's completely laughable. Europe has been a multi-cultural continent since Rome and probably even longer.
The United States is not some magical land where from the philosophy of equality sprung whole from George Washington's forehead. You talk about abolition? Abolition was definitely economically detrimental to the British. And to the French. and to many, many others. But it was done anyway before the United States. You touch that point as if it proves something but the US had to fight a bloody Civil War to finally end slavery in this country. How can you claim the US as an example when they were among the last to do away with it? How can you claim the United states as an example that we all can get along when Great Britain has been a multicultural island since the Romans with a functioning legislature since before the United States was a twinkling in anyone's eye?
Racial equality, as a US value, is not something you can even convincingly argue that the United States can stand as an example of until maybe the 1970s. Maybe. I just don't get how you can claim with a straight face that only the United States shows people can get along when they've been doing it elsewhere across the world for thousands of years already before the United States came along and that somehow its removal from this timeline will mean a more brutal, inequal world. It's pure Ameriwank. This divergence is massive and honestly it's hard to say exactly what will happen, but the lack of the USA doesn't mean the light of liberty goes out of the world.
Yes. They are publically and globally known for expounding the Virtue of All men are created equally and deserve equal rights. Nevermind that at first, this only applied to White Anglo Saxon Protestant Land Owning Males. And then the land owning part was taken out as with the religious part. But the popular definition of "White" was still pretty narrow for nearly a century.
But even with all that blatant hypocrisy, no other nation was in a position to even be hypocrites. Britain certainly didn't cultivate an image of equality to all. France...wasn't very well liked and definitely not for proto-social justice.
Yes and? The Magna Carta was a grant of rights to nobles. And even though many of the relevant philosophers were British, Britain was not to nation that put them into action and law and showed the world. It was the USA
Are you seriously saying the West and Europe won't be racist without the USA? The nation that made a public spectacle out of deploying elite shocktroopers to protect and enforce the rights of a racial minority? Are you saying that Europe won't hold even the standard bigotry that powerful empires have held since the first empire conquered the first people and said in their hearts "I am the greatest in the world"!?
In light of this...suggestion...I'm ignoring the rest of your post as utterly irrelevant.
You can't fucking read.
The USA is the only public proponent of these values. It is the only one that even could be a hypocrite. Because it has to publicly extoll these virtues in the first place. Quite literally, the entire history of my nation is one Social Justice cause after another, one call for equality after another, one nasty fight for rights and enforcing after another. We gave the idea of multiculturalism as a strength and not a liability to the world. The idea of a multiracial and multi-ethnic society being prosperous and powerful instead of a perpetual civil war, cold or hot.
Maybe Europe won't get so extreme in its Racism. But it definitely won't drop bigotry without something demonstrating, however small and hypocritically, that it isn't necessary, and another example to show the logical end road ala Nazi Germany. It will, at minimum, adopt similar attitudes of East Asia.
EDIT: By the way, everyone, real-life is an Ameriwank. Real Life. America is the Mary Sue nation.
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We don't know. This entire situation is full of so many butterflies that we can't even be sure. I love that you just ignore everything else I said in order to fluff your own bullshit point that has zero grounding in actual understanding of history. The path of minority rights, racism, classism, the pathway of equality.... It's not fucking linear. We don't go from "only x people have rights" to "all people have rights" in a linear progression of history. History does not work that way. There have been periods where people had more or less equality, restrictions, and enfranchisement. People have gained and lost and mixed and none of it is just because of one nations.
Yeah, the United States is kind of a big deal historically speaking, when we hit the early-mid twentieth century. But it was far from the first country to espouse equality of man and far from the last to fall short of the ideals it espoused. Consider that a man of African descent was emperor of Rome. That we have found Asian trade goods in Viking graves, that the world, historically speaking, was vastly more interconnected than past historians could have dreamed of. Black people formed a significant minority in England during the reign of Elizabeth I and were treated pretty much just like any other Englishman. Yes, there has been racism and horrifying crimes committed, but the same thing happened in the United States. To say that the absence of the United States means the absence of equality movements is a huge assertion. You haven't provided anything to prove this but a bunch of nattering about how the US is the Golden City on the Hill. Great Britain has a bill of rights from 1689. These principles will still exist without the United States and the fact is that the United States, like every other country in the history of the world, has a lot of bullshit to say about how great and free they are, which, if we actually look at history, is patently untrue. It's the same propaganda that every nation puts out by itself, ratcheted up to 11 thanks to the Cold War.
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
Fair enough.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I do kind of wonder if it'd have been possible for there to actually have been a large Sub-Saharan African empire if there'd just been the right kind of leader at the right time, or if the geographic and demographic aspects of Africa made it just plain impossible.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
To add, there were several large kingdoms and Empires in Southern Africa, specifically the Kingdom of Zimbabwe and its successor states, as well as the Mutapa Empire - all of which covered areas the size of several modern African nations.
Are you insane? Oh God why did I even bother saying that. Go put 'The Enlightenment' into Google. The US didn't do shit for social justice. It copied the French philosophies while beating their black slaves and telling the wife to shut the fuck up and make a sandwich while the white men voted.
You really are insane aren't you. Everyone else pointed out that the major nations of the world were peacefully abolishing slavery before the US. The slave trade was almost entirely stopped overnight because the British Empire said, "Nope." That's far, far more than the pissant little United States could lay claim to at the time. It was pathetic, no-one actually gave a shit what was happening in the United States. Now the British Empire, the guys who ruled the oceans of the entire planet, when they stood up against slavery the overseas slave trade just stopped because fucking with the Royal Navy after it had handed out free money for any slave ship scalped was a no-win proposition.
In fact, one of the big reasons slavery was abolished is because of the deplorable conditions under which they were being shipped and sold to the United States. The US is literally the opposite of what you're trying to claim. It was such a slave eager fuckhole that even colonial Europe thought this shit was going a bit too far.
And FFS, you had overt racial segregation up until 1964! It was literally the law to separate blacks from whites! Britain had given the entirety of India back before the US even realised those million black people standing around out there shouting seemed to want something...
America is the nation which had sole expansion rights into an entire basically undefended continent of completely untapped resources and native burial grounds, while protected from every other nation, which could have otherwise mudhole stomped it effortlessly, by the two largest expanses of ocean in the world.
The United States is an example of how even dunces like you can do little to slow down or stop such an utterly overwhelming geographical advantage. The US literally could not fail, but by God you did everything you could to make it a challenge! Hey, lets pick a fight with the worlds pre-eminent superpower with a handful of militia...holy shit they're beating our faces in! So how's that slavery thing goi-Holy shit the country is trying to break in half!
It isn't special, the people aren't exceptional, it isn't a 'Mary Sue'. It's a bunch of people dumped on the biggest pile of gold in the world inexplicably managing to create success. Well done! Pat yourself on the back! Meanwhile in Chile, guys were building a civilisation out of a pile of rocks they practically had to headbutt into shape at the top of a God damn mountain.