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What are your opinions on the God Emperor of mankind

B

bioticgrunt

Location
United states of america
I want to know people's opinion on the Geom

Rules
  1. Answer must be longer than a one or two sentences.
  2. No pointless back and forth arguments
 
Dudes an old, crotchety, immense psychic asshole strapped to a chair and spoon fed puréed human. He also made a bunch of assholes, though luckily the primarchs were scattered and so not all of them or their sons were as bad as him and the Custodes.
 
A decent idea that has been thoroughly character-assassinated by the atrocious Horus Heresy series, a collection of novels far more interested in one-upping each other by presenting new shock twists and determined to give the author's favorite characters the most legit manpain, rather than presenting a coherent storyline.

The Emperor is at his best in the old Index Astartes articles, wherein he is presented as a well-meaning but deeply flawed figure who wants to advance humanity's existence and for much of his own life has worked behind the scenes since his birth in 8000 BC, the spiritual amalgamation of many thousands of psykers ("shaman") who foresaw the coming of Chaos and scarified themselves to find a way to preserve humanity, ultimately coming to the fore following the Age of Strife in a determined effort to unite the disparate elements of our race before we are snuffed from existence by war with other species or by the ravages of the Warp. Despite being very good at the big-picture view, he has faults and foibles as does any human being and, in the fashion of classic Greek tragedy, he is ultimately undone by them. His love for his favorite gene-son Horus blinds him to said son's increasing vanity and ambition, and similar mistakes made amongst the other primarchs (best shown in the stories of Magnus and Mortarion, IMO) ultimately leads to the downfall of the Imperium (itself yet a deeply flawed, incomplete project at the time of the Heresy) and the sundering of everything he worked to create, twisting it into a hellish dystopia that grinds humans by the millions beneath its gears with each passing day.

The Emperor is at his worst in the above-mentioned Heresy novels, in which he is a floundering buffoon who couldn't organize a surprise birthday party let alone an empire, petty and malicious in spirit on the order of several MegaHitlers as he destroys people and things the instant they aren't of use to him and at times seems to evince none of the positive human emotions, utterly incapable of connecting with others on even a basic level. Oh yes and literally everyone with an ounce of experience knows better than him about how Chaos works and that the Imperium will fall to Chaos and tries to correct his stupid idiot mistakes but he's too stupid and idiotic to listen because he's the worst and also why didn't you love me dad. Also his backstory is retconned into being a dude who made a bargain with Chaos and promised to deliver humanity to them in exchange for the knowledge to stuff a bunch of warp power into human jackets he could call primarchs, then went back on his word because apparently the Chaos gods are such flaming morons they handed this guy a truckload of power based on a pinky swear with no take-backsies.
 
An excellent character concept, as previously mentioned a callback to Greek legend where the character's own hubris and strengths are there downfall. Unfortunately, it would have already taken a godlike author to pull off perfectly in a setting as fleshed out and comprehensive as WH40K, and with the amount of authors that work with the character? It is simply impossible to even really define his character anymore, having been spread thin and unevenly across countless stories, with dozens of visions of how he should be written, all biased and troubled in their own ways, some more than others.
 
I'm not exactly a fan of anyone real or fictional who helps in creating a safe space for the discussion of fascist ideals.
 
I'd say I've seen him written better in Fanfiction than in canon. The Horus Heresy novels really did make him an asshole. His original concept was a failed hero as far as I recall, but the newer canon has him be more like a lesser villain than any sort of hero.
 
I like him as a example of tragic hubris. He united humanity and set out to conquer the galaxy but failed because of his own pride and inevitable failure to account for everything. His biggest weakness being that despite all his power he could not connect with his sons which brought about his end. That said...
bioticgrunt said:
No one is talking about politics here
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It is kind of hard to separate the emperor as a character from the politics of the setting around him which can often dip into fascist apologia. The idea that the only way to survive in a dangerous uncertain universe is to hand over all power to all knowing deity figure and all opposition must be stamped out is a scary one. And that's what the emperor was on his best day good intentions or not.
 
Alex said:
I like him as a example of tragic hubris. He united humanity and set out to conquer the galaxy but failed because of his own pride and inevitable failure to account for everything. His biggest weakness being that despite all his power he could not connect with his sons which brought about his end. That said...

It is kind of hard to separate the emperor as a character from the politics of the setting around him which can often dip into fascist apologia. The idea that the only way to survive in a dangerous uncertain universe is to hand over all power to all knowing deity figure and all opposition must be stamped out is a scary one. And that's what the emperor was on his best day good intentions or not.
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In a world with physical deities, complaints about there being a godlike leader aren't really all that valid. Sort of like being an atheist in d&d is portrayed as being stupid as fuck.
 
He may have good reasons to do what he did, but like other humans (i know he is more like a deity than mortal but that's his preferred status) he was fallible as well. Crushing the traditional faiths can be interpreted as a shortsighted panic reaction when he understood what Chaos represented, but people need something to believe in for good and for ill. So that whole full-retarded medieval era church-like him worshippers are completely self-inflicted.

Also, creating superheroes with cloning and inherited genetic traits usually requires tiny baby steps; instead of making a bunch for enemies to play kidnapping.
 
Wow, when I had posted this on SB months at least several pages were created because people differed in opinion of the emperor.

In my opinion, the Emperor was the best person needed for humanity's survival. He was put in a situation that would break lesser men and did the best he could even if it wasn't ethical. I will not deny that the emperor did some shady shit and he ain't a saint but you can't deny that because of him that entirety humanity isn't dead, enslaved, or worse.

His stance on religion can be understood because the chaos Gods aren't Gods but constructs of mental thought and emotions. Deny religion would have prevented chaos from having any influence in the materium through proxies. His stance on Xenos always seemed to be neutral to me, so long as they didn't become a potential threat then it was up to the military leaders to decide what to do with them.
 
bioticgrunt said:
Wow, when I had posted this on SB months at least several pages were created because people differed in opinion of the emperor.

In my opinion, the Emperor was the best person needed for humanity's survival. He was put in a situation that would break lesser men and did the best he could even if it wasn't ethical. I will not deny that the emperor did some shady shit and he ain't a saint but you can't deny that because of him that entirety humanity isn't dead, enslaved, or worse.

His stance on religion can be understood because the chaos Gods aren't Gods but constructs of mental thought and emotions. Deny religion would have prevented chaos from having any influence in the materium through proxies. His stance on Xenos always seemed to be neutral to me, so long as they didn't become a potential threat then it was up to the military leaders to decide what to do with them.
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So your interpretation of the emperor in-setting may be true and accurate (not the impression I'm getting from descriptions of the Horus Heresy works but ymmv).

Riddle me this. Why is the setting constructed such that someone like the emperor can be seen in this positive light? Why is this person who by all accounts sounds like a villain from Mad Max in space the only possible path forwards for humanity? What does it say about the writers that they stopped playing this as parody and started playing it straight, and what does it say about the WH40K fan base that they can accept and even admire this man but blow their corks at female space marines?
 
Yaminator said:
So your interpretation of the emperor in-setting may be true and accurate (not the impression I'm getting from descriptions of the Horus Heresy works but ymmv).

Riddle me this. Why is the setting constructed such that someone like the emperor can be seen in this positive light? Why is this person who by all accounts sounds like a villain from Mad Max in space the only possible path forwards for humanity? What does it say about the writers that they stopped playing this as parody and started playing it straight, and what does it say about the WH40K fan base that they can accept and even admire this man but blow their corks at female space marines?
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Honestly, I don't have a real answer for this because I'm not one creators/writers of 40k and I can't speak for other 40k fans.
 
bioticgrunt said:
Wow, when I had posted this on SB months at least several pages were created because people differed in opinion of the emperor.

In my opinion, the Emperor was the best person needed for humanity's survival. He was put in a situation that would break lesser men and did the best he could even if it wasn't ethical. I will not deny that the emperor did some shady shit and he ain't a saint but you can't deny that because of him that entirety humanity isn't dead, enslaved, or worse.

His stance on religion can be understood because the chaos Gods aren't Gods but constructs of mental thought and emotions. Deny religion would have prevented chaos from having any influence in the materium through proxies. His stance on Xenos always seemed to be neutral to me, so long as they didn't become a potential threat then it was up to the military leaders to decide what to do with them.
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See this is what I meant by fascist apologia. When the setting is set up so that for some reason the tenants of fascism are all magically justified. "Why do we need to hand over all power to a dictator?" "Because only he truly understands the universe and our path in it." "Why do we need to give up all rights and liberties? "Because the universe is so harsh and unforgiving that we have to." "Why are we at war with everything around us?" "Because everyone else wants to enslave exploit or destroy us." "Why are we rounding up protesters and political dissidents?" "Because they are all actually agents of our enemies and can't be allowed to exist." See what I mean? Yes there are in universe explanations to it all but at that point you gave to wonder why the writers are trying so hard to justify it all.
 
Alex said:
See this is what I meant by fascist apologia. When the setting is set up so that for some reason the tenants of fascism are all magically justified. "Why do we need to hand over all power to a dictator?" "Because only he truly understands the universe and our path in it." "Why do we need to give up all rights and liberties? "Because the universe is so harsh and unforgiving that we have to." "Why are we at war with everything around us?" "Because everyone else wants to enslave exploit or destroy us." "Why are we rounding up protesters and political dissidents?" "Because they are all actually agents of our enemies and can't be allowed to exist." See what I mean? Yes there are in universe explanations to it all but at that point you gave to wonder why the writers are trying so hard to justify it all.
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Probably because the warhammer 40k was made to be a dystopian future/ badass war game and the creators probably didn't want to rip off Star Wars and Star Trek. Why they try to justify it is most likely to explain why the imperium is the way it is and not just say "it's shitty just because". Do I like that's the only stable and powerful human empire, fuck no, but do I understand why it's like this in universe yes.
 
Did Adam came up with his title or did someone up'ed him after the whole civil war thing?
 
bioticgrunt said:
Probably because the warhammer 40k was made to be a dystopian future/ badass war game and the creators probably didn't want to rip off Star Wars and Star Trek.
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The actual reason that you're missing is that the Imperium was supposed to be bad. Original Rogue Traders were ultracapitalist scum who would wipe the life off a planet if it made them a nickel; original Space Marines were Vietnam War draftees taken to the nth degree and fitted with power armor; etc etc. Original-brand Imperium was supposed to be entertaining, but not even vaguely defensible as people, in the same way as good movie villains.

But then enough mindlessly uncritical fanboy nerds got their hands on 40K, and Games Workshop realized they could make more money by just glossing it over and putting out a bajillion books featuring the Imperium as heroic figures, because those same mindlessly uncritical fanboy nerds couldn't recognize fascism as a bad thing in any situation less direct than literally being trodden on by jackboots.
 
Roadie said:
The actual reason that you're missing is that the Imperium was supposed to be bad. Original Rogue Traders were ultracapitalist scum who would wipe the life off a planet if it made them a nickel; original Space Marines were Vietnam War draftees taken to the nth degree and fitted with power armor; etc etc. Original-brand Imperium was supposed to be entertaining, but not even vaguely defensible as people, in the same way as good movie villains.

But then enough mindlessly uncritical fanboy nerds got their hands on 40K, and Games Workshop realized they could make more money by just glossing it over and putting out a bajillion books featuring the Imperium as heroic figures, because those same mindlessly uncritical fanboy nerds couldn't recognize fascism as a bad thing in any situation less direct than literally being trodden on by jackboots.
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I don't think anyone really sees the imperium as heroes, badasses definitely, but certainly not heroes. I can see your point on how the fanbase has turned 40k from simply overtop to what it would is now
 
A contemptible, nonsensical character from a contemptible, nonsensical setting.

I can respect what some of the writers may have been intending to do with geom, but based on my exposure to WH40K they mostly failed.

The best and most competent portrayal of him was in "The Last Church," in which the author recognizes the emperor as the horrorshow that he is and casts him explicitly as the villain. A contemptible character can still be a good character as long as the author knows that that's what they are. Unfortunately, that is the exception to the norm with the geom.

EDIT: never mind, apparently the author actually meant the emperor to be in the right in that story. The emperor is shit, 40k is shit, etc.
 
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bioticgrunt said:
I don't think anyone really sees the imperium as heroes, badasses definitely, but certainly not heroes.
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Those people might not be a majority, but they exist. Recently on SB I got a PM from someone relating to a months-old post. They repeatedly insisted the Imperium wasn't a dystopia at all and life is actually pretty nice for the average citizen.

This is in spite of the blurb that's been at the beginning of every version of the core rulebook and on Games Workshop's site stating:

"To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest, most despotic regime imaginable."

40k could have been a great setting, and there are still fragments of what it was that have survived. There's some brilliant irony in humanity's technological peak being referred to as a "dark age" by an empire reliant on scraps of that technology.
 
A convenient plot device and setting fluff that provides the barest fig leaf of justification for the Empire to be a bunch of fascist twits. Originally some sort of juche/dystopian figurehead, he's been morphed into the REAL hero of mankind, even though he basically conquered and murdered his way to the top and then got punked when one of his lieutenants tried to coup him.

Kuja said:
Also his backstory is retconned into being a dude who made a bargain with Chaos and promised to deliver humanity to them in exchange for the knowledge to stuff a bunch of warp power into human jackets he could call primarchs, then went back on his word because apparently the Chaos gods are such flaming morons they handed this guy a truckload of power based on a pinky swear with no take-backsies.
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See, that sounds way cooler to me than the un-ironically worshiped God-Emperor.

Turns 40K into a slap-fight between various flavors of demons.
 
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I love how his plan to defeat entities that are literally born from and empowered by the negative emotions of sentient beings was to conquer the human race by force and then commit genocide against multiple species of sentient aliens. Superhuman intellect here, folks.
 
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