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Union Troops defend Minas Tirith against Saurons army.

BeRzErKeR said:
What about mounting the main defense BEHIND the first gate,
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So, give the Nine the freedom to ravage their morale at will without preventing the advance of their forces?'

Also this doesn't account for the multiple escalades along the length of the wall the Enemy was mounting in concert with the attack on the gatehouse. So even assuming the men held you will have Orc and Human archers with a height advantage over gunners who may not have the gun elevation to respond, with little in the way of physical protection...
 
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100thlurker said:
So, give the Nine the freedom to ravage their morale at will without preventing the advance of their forces?'

Also this in in no way prevents the multiple escalades along the length of the wall the Enemy was mounting in concert with the attack on the gatehouse. So even assuming the men held you will have Orc and Human archers with a height advantage over gunners who may not have the gun elevation to respond, with little in the way of physical protection...
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I did mention trying to position artillery to sweep the important parts of the walls, but that might not be possible.

The basic problem I see is that there is no good answer to the Nine; the only remotely practical response would be to put sharpshooters in towers and other elevated positions to try and bring down the fell-beast any time they become visible. But without removing the Witch-King, a forward defense is doomed; the orcs won't break but the defenders most definitely will, and so the Union army's firepower won't be enough to actually stop a large-scale charge. If they set up outside the city, they'll be overrun in minutes. They NEED the walls to delay the moment when the orcs take them in melee.

EDIT: it's frankly going to be hard for the artillery to participate effectively, but what about massing guns on the top level of Minas Tirith and using them for plunging shellfire into the mass of the orcish army outside the city? That would at least inflict casualties. . .
 
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BeRzErKeR said:
If they set up outside the city, they'll be overrun in minutes. T
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Hardly guaranteed. Napoleon's Grand Battery stopped movements of thousands dead in their tracks by sheer dint of their concentrated fires, and Civil War era inventories include, though not particularly many, rifled field pieces. The will of the Witch King urged on the attacking force and could quite possibly give them the ability to endure an advance through such a barrage, but if he is unprepared he may well be overwhelmed by the number of casualties inflicted before even entering bowshot and order his lieutenants to hold back whilst he turns the resolve of the defense to dust. No other deployment will give those pieces a chance to meaningfully affect the battle.
 
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100thlurker said:
Considering the abysmal accuracy Civil War troops on good ground displayed when firing at dense phalanxes of their opposing countrymen advancing at walking pace? The Fell Beasts are quite safe, particularly since as the for most of the battle they were a presence felt but not seen:
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I wouldn't call a line formation a "dense phalanxes".
But otherwise, thanks for the post.
100thlurker said:
Hardly guaranteed. Napoleon's Grand Battery stopped movements of thousands dead in their tracks by sheer dint of their concentrated fires, and Civil War era inventories includes, though not particularly many, rifled field pieces. The will of the Witch King urged on the attacking force and could quite possibly give them the ability to endure an advance through such a barrage, but if he is unprepared he may well be overwhelmed by the number of casualties inflicted before even entering bowshot and order his forces to hold back whilst he chips away at their resolve with his presence. No other deployment will give those pieces a chance to meaningfully affect the battle.
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Just how much of a morale booster is the Witch King?
 
100thlurker said:
Hardly guaranteed. Napoleon's Grand Battery stopped movements of thousands dead in their tracks by sheer dint of their concentrated fires, and Civil War era inventories includes, though not particularly many, rifled field pieces. The will of the Witch King urged on the attacking force and could quite possibly give them the ability to endure an advance through such a barrage, but if he is unprepared he may well be overwhelmed by the number of casualties inflicted before even entering bowshot and order his forces to hold back whilst he chips away at their resolve with his presence. No other deployment will give those pieces a chance to meaningfully affect the battle.
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Sure, but artillery can't stop advancing troops who refuse to retreat or go to ground. Look at Pickett's Charge for a directly relevant example; in the teeth of the fire of more than a hundred pieces of artillery and half the Army of the Potomac's infantry, with the advance completely confused from the word go including several brigades being forced to wheel and march across the Union field of fire, even so a few hundred Confederate troops actually managed to engage in melee and about half were neither killed nor injured during the advance and subsequent retreat.

Now picture that charge being made across a flat plain by five times as many Orcs, none of whom will break and flee.

Yes, if the Witch-King calls his troops back, the charge will fail with massive casualties, but if he doesn't the entire Union army will be shattered as a fighting force in very short order and Minas Tirith will be overrun immediately afterwards.

EDIT: Also, holy shit, they only have fifty rounds per man. There's no way they can stop a mass charge, they'll straight-up run out of ammunition in twenty minutes.
 
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HolySeraph said:
I wouldn't call a line formation a "dense phalanxes".
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Contemporary writers described them in such manner, and I'm inclined to trust their judgement.

HolySeraph said:
Just how much of a morale booster is the Witch King?
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It is not infinite is power, particularly when his mind and will are bent toward some other task. The Rohirrim managed great effect on the extreme right wing of the army whilst his attention was focused on first giving aid of some kind to the spells laid on the battering ram which was directed against the gate and then preparing for a duel with Gandalf.

BeRzErKeR said:
Yes, if the Witch-King calls his troops back, the charge will fail with massive casualties, but if he doesn't the entire Union army will be shattered as a fighting force in very short order and Minas Tirith will be overrun immediately afterwards.
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It's a gamble, but the War of the Ring was full of desperate gambles. Mostly I'm banking on the Witch King's approach as a commander as seen in the battle, which reveals a calculating, methodical mind which leaves nothing to chance even when it seems unnecessary. While he might not care particularly much about the lives of those under his command, they are useful to him and he will not waste a resource to no good purpose. The shock of the first barrage will make him consider how much and in how good an order his forces will be by the time they assault the earthen redoubts with the walls still held by enemy force, and he may well consider it worthwhile to bide his time while the will of the Nine waxes. He does not know how many charges the massed Union artillery will have available, unless he were to capture someone who worked the guns, and I doubt he would be the kind to assume they would suddenly cease all firing in a few minutes time.

He has all the time in the world, or so he thinks.
 
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100thlurker said:
Contemporary writers described them in such manner, and I'm inclined to trust their judgement.
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That seems odd. Since phalanx have completely different connotations of formations than what was used in the war.

100thlurker said:
It is not infinite is power, particularly when his mind and will are bent toward some other task. The Rohirrim managed great effect on the extreme right wing of the army whilst his attention was focused on first giving power to the spells laid on the battering ram and then preparing for a duel with Gandalf.
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But generally, not even a Grand Battery of artillery might not overcome it?
 
HolySeraph said:
That seems odd. Since phalanx have completely different connotations of formations than what was used in the war.
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It's appropriate when you consider these are men advancing shoulder to shoulder and in multiple echelons against what was then modern arms and artillery.

HolySeraph said:
But generally, not even a Grand Battery of artillery might not overcome it?
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It's hard to say anything for certain. I want to say it's not impossible for the orcs and men in the vanguard to find that the terror of the Union artillery matches the fear and iron will of the Witch King. The Union artillerists, after all, have the advantage of rude shock and surprise for the effect of their shells.

BeRzErKeR said:
I think he'll figure it out when all the Union infantry start running out of ammunition halfway through the first clash, though.
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Considering they are fighting over a static position, I'm sure the Union artillery will not be limited to the shot contained in their cassions but from the siege train as well. Regardless it's unlikely for the Union battery commanders to fire as fast as they can at the longest range, they'll reserve such a tempo for closer targets.
 
100thlurker said:
Considering they are fighting over a static position, I'm sure the Union artillery will not be limited to the shot contained in their cassions but from the siege train as well. Regardless it's unlikely for the Union battery commanders to fire as fast as they can at the longest range, they'll reserve such a tempo for closer targets.
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Ok but the infantry only have fifty shots each, and without infantry fire as a backstop, artillery alone will absolutely not be able to stop an orcish advance - and if the Witch-King notices infantry fire slackening, to hell with the guns, he'll drive a full-court press right down their throats.
 
BeRzErKeR said:
Ok but the infantry only have fifty shots each, and without infantry fire as a backstop, artillery alone will absolutely not be able to stop an orcish advance - and if the Witch-King notices infantry fire slackening, to hell with the guns, he'll drive a full-court press right down their throats.
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Well if the advancing vanguard is already so close that the infantry can add their fire to that of the guns, then yeah, it is already over save the slaughter.
 
100thlurker said:
It's appropriate when you consider these are men advancing shoulder to shoulder and in multiple echelons against what was then modern arms and artillery.
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When its only 2 ranks at most, it doesn't seem to fit imo. When phalanx usually gives image of a very large mass of men, the like the column formations that was quickly abandoned(from what I recall).
I partly say this that if they're shooting at the actual "dense phalanx" formation similar to what like what the orcs might be, accuracy issues are going to be far more moot. Though, misfire due to improper loading is still an issue depending on the unit.

Since there is the question of is this early or late war Union troops. And which Union Army.
 
HolySeraph said:
Since there is the question of is this early or late war Union troops. And which Union Army.
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Late War union Troops. Also since its been said that fifty is too little, troops now all have one hundred bullets each. Also remember people they have all the support equipment that would come from a force thirty thousand to forty thousand strong as well as the prototype Gatling guns I've heard they had. I mean I'm willing to up the amount of troops so as to make this more interesting but I hope I don't have to. Also since the Witch King seems to be a big factor I've decided to make this be two scenarios. Scenario 1: No Witch King or Nazgul, Scenario 2: The Witch King and whatever Nazgul that were at the battle are their.
 
Scenario 1: Orcs rout across the Anduin when they encounter cannons. Witch King is then sent to command them with the other eight Nazgul.

Scenario 2: Nazgul rout defenders with fear before charging with Orcs. If one of the nine is shot down inside the city, everything dies.
 
I think we need to take a step back and analize both forces first.

30,000 soldiers based in Minas Tirith with 1 week to prepare for a seige and presumably enough ammunition for 100 rounds to be fired by each man before running out with similar if not identical amounts of supplies for the artiliry and cavalary.

Before we can answer who would win I think a few more questions need to be answered.

How many orcs and men, trolls etc were in the army of Sauron?

How many people live in the city of Minas Tirith?

Until we know what the odds are it's hard to simply state one side or the other will clearly win. Are there a million orcs? Ten thousand? Its importaint to know.
 
Skychan said:
How many orcs and men, trolls etc were in the army of Sauron?
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In the high thousands. They keep pouring out of Ostgiliath the moment they were needed. Then Imrahil charges them.

How many people live in the city of Minas Tirith?
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Not many, the city has very few people compared to its heyday.

Until we know what the odds are it's hard to simply state one side or the other will clearly win. Are there a million orcs? Ten thousand? Its importaint to know.
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There are tens of thousands. More will follow if needed. Let's not forget the Corsairs and Southronds.
 
Mr. Happy said:
In the high thousands. They keep pouring out of Ostgiliath the moment they were needed. Then Imrahil charges them.




Not many, the city has very few people compared to its heyday.



There are tens of thousands. More will follow if needed. Let's not forget the Corsairs and Southronds.
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The minimum total number of Sauron's forces at Pellenor Fields is approximately 60,000. We don't really have enough specifics to say what the maximum number is, as this army is described as "but one, and not the largest" of the armies Sauron deployed during the War of the Ring.

I had a post in an SB Vs. where I worked out all the numbers, but it was a couple years ago and I'm not going to go digging for it right now.
 
Well 60,000 would be easily routed. If you got to 90,000 then maybe it would be a real fight. But men behind high walls that can quite easily man them. The walls are 100 feet tall for the first level alone and 700 feet from bottom to top. Looking at all the depictions I can find the city does not seem much wider than it is tall. With circular walls this leads me to believe that the length of the wall can not be much greater than 2400 feet. That means that they can have roughly 12 men per foot of exterior wall. So basically they can afford to man the lowest wall shoulder to shoulder with a lot of men left over. Even if all the walls were the same length they could STILL man every wall shoulder to shoulder with 3 out of 10 troopers left over. With that kind of fortification and concentration of firepower no conventional force would be able to deal with them. Add in artillery from elevation and no trebuchets would last long enough to do more than niggling damage. The only hope that the attackers have is that the defenders moral will completely snap.

However 30,000 men is far more than needed to defend. in defense of this I point out that the reinforcements including prince imrahil only were around 2700 men. I haven't found any numbers for how many were actually there but I'm guessing that 30,000 men is more than the defenders had cannonically.
 
Skychan said:
Well 60,000 would be easily routed. If you got to 90,000 then maybe it would be a real fight. But men behind high walls that can quite easily man them. The walls are 100 feet tall for the first level alone and 700 feet from bottom to top. Looking at all the depictions I can find the city does not seem much wider than it is tall. With circular walls this leads me to believe that the length of the wall can not be much greater than 2400 feet. That means that they can have roughly 12 men per foot of exterior wall. So basically they can afford to man the lowest wall shoulder to shoulder with a lot of men left over. Even if all the walls were the same length they could STILL man every wall shoulder to shoulder with 3 out of 10 troopers left over. With that kind of fortification and concentration of firepower no conventional force would be able to deal with them. Add in artillery from elevation and no trebuchets would last long enough to do more than niggling damage. The only hope that the attackers have is that the defenders moral will completely snap.

However 30,000 men is far more than needed to defend. in defense of this I point out that the reinforcements including prince imrahil only were around 2700 men. I haven't found any numbers for how many were actually there but I'm guessing that 30,000 men is more than the defenders had cannonically.
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Nazgul. And reinforcements. And artillery that can strike with impunity. Unless you mount the cannons on the walls.
 
A single Corp of late war Union troops would in all likelyhood be enough without the presence of the Nine to hold the length of the walls against the assault and keep the enemy fixed as the Rohirrim and the Coastal armies of Gondor to arrive on the field and join the counterattack assuming the host of Mordor uses the same tactics. If their cannon can be mounted along the walls - this is doubtful for reasons I mentioned earlier - then they can do so without a doubt.

Actually, scratch that, unless they are under brigade strength the commanders would probably actually prefer to deploy forward of the walls and fight on the field where they can definitely put more of their firepower into play.
 
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