Union Troops defend Minas Tirith against Saurons army.

Nazgul. And reinforcements. And artillery that can strike with impunity. Unless you mount the cannons on the walls.

As for impunity and artillery, you have those roles reversed. It is the Cannon which would be on the walls for incredible extra reach that would would be firing with impunity. The walls of Gondor are specifically stated to be effectively immune. So the only weak points remain the gates which with 'modern' cannon and grape are not going to be falling anytime soon.

Yes those 9 Nazgul could be an issue. But not that big of one. They could in theory go land on the walls and start killing, say 1 man every 5 seconds at the very best. That means roughly 100 men die to them a minute, which means it would take 5 hours for them to kill every defender. 5 hours in which massed guns and cannon have a chance to put them and their mounts down and force them to spend precious time incorporial and as helpless as they were after they were dismounted as when trying to enter rivendell.

100th lurker. I have a question about your doubt about being able to mount guns on the walls. Mounting guns in battery was often done on hilltops specifically because it gave more range. Lack of 'gun depression' as you say is only of issue when the enemy you want to kill is less than perhaps 50 yards away, well within grapeshot range. But at that range the men on the walls with the rifles would be killing the enemy in job lots, so the cannon would be firing over their heads at the enemy that is further out anyway. Most having a range of almost a mile, around 1500 yards. Now add in howitzers designed for lobbing shots and the problem is even less of one. Also these walls were aroudn 30 feet wide at the top, that is more than enough room to mount the guns, and given a weeks prep to build firing ramps behind them to absorb recoil and run them back into battery after each shot.

My main point however is that 30,000 infantrymen is probably an excessively large force to replace the defenders with. If the reinforcements to gondor from their outlying territories were only 2700 then I don't think the army of gondor would be even near 30,000 all together. Which means that if you replace an army that was doing a fairly good job of fighting off mordor's attack (even if losing) with a more capable army that is larger the question of if musckets would have made a difference becomes largely moot.
 
Well 60,000 would be easily routed. If you got to 90,000 then maybe it would be a real fight. But men behind high walls that can quite easily man them. The walls are 100 feet tall for the first level alone and 700 feet from bottom to top. Looking at all the depictions I can find the city does not seem much wider than it is tall. With circular walls this leads me to believe that the length of the wall can not be much greater than 2400 feet. That means that they can have roughly 12 men per foot of exterior wall. So basically they can afford to man the lowest wall shoulder to shoulder with a lot of men left over. Even if all the walls were the same length they could STILL man every wall shoulder to shoulder with 3 out of 10 troopers left over. With that kind of fortification and concentration of firepower no conventional force would be able to deal with them. Add in artillery from elevation and no trebuchets would last long enough to do more than niggling damage. The only hope that the attackers have is that the defenders moral will completely snap.

However 30,000 men is far more than needed to defend. in defense of this I point out that the reinforcements including prince imrahil only were around 2700 men. I haven't found any numbers for how many were actually there but I'm guessing that 30,000 men is more than the defenders had cannonically.

Yes, absolutely. Canonically, the defenders of Minas Tirith numbered something less than 10,000; it might have been as low as 5,000.

Yes, without the Nine on the field, 30,000 Union soldiers could certainly hold the walls, assuming their ammunition holds. I initially was skeptical about 100 rounds per man being enough for a solid day and night of fighting, but I found this blog which quotes figures from the Battle of Gettysburg, and it seems that actually that supply would be ample, as the Union army expended an average of about 34 rounds per soldier engaged in that battle, and this is noted as being somewhat higher than expected. So if it's just orcs and late-medieval siege equipment, they've got the battle in the bag.

The issue of the Nazgul, however, still doesn't have a good solution. The problem isn't that they'll attack the walls and starting causing casualties personally, the problem is that wherever they go the Union soldiers will stop fighting in favor of cowering, crying, and running away, just like Gondorian soldiers did. Without Gandalf the defenders have literally no way to deal with that - Imrahil can take over fear-suppression to an extent, but not nearly as well. If it comes right down to it, the Witch-King can literally hover over the Great Gate too high to see and put out his fear aura to suppress the defenders while the orcs roll Grond up, then land, take out the gate, and the city is done. Union troops locked in melee combat with rabid uruks in an urban environment - especially, God forbid, at night - will be butchered.
 
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I'll have to see a quote for that. I don't recall at any point specific figures noted for the walls of Minas Tirith, but it might just be my spotty memory.

Ive been unable to find an online one, mine is from a book. I'll have to wait to give the quotations till I'm home, but its from a resource that holds a side diagram of the outer walls etc etc. I will grant that it is not likely penned by JRR Tolkien but a derivative work based on actual defensive works. If this breaks your belief I will point out most traditional castle walls were 7-30 feet wide, and only 30-40 feet tall. Building a higher wall requires it to be wider for structural support.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FS9FAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA122&dq=cannon casemates&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KKwAVOeaAYiyggTfmoG4Bw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=recoil&f=false

I finally found a good source for recoil requirements, for 24 pound guns amusingly enough 24 feet is required for recoil however the field army likely only has 12 pounders and 12-21 feet is enough space. If they don't care about the cannon surviving they can nail them in place and have no recoil but that drastically cuts down on service time and can have baaaad side effects. Other methods involve changing out the gun carriages but there is unlikely to be enough time for that, or building specialized ramps at the back of the walls to reduce recoil distance requriements.

The issue of the Nazgul, however, still doesn't have a good solution. The problem isn't that they'll attack the walls and starting causing casualties personally, the problem is that wherever they go the Union soldiers will stop fighting in favor of cowering, crying, and running away, just like Gondorian soldiers did. Without Gandalf the defenders have literally no way to deal with that - Imrahil can take over fear-suppression to an extent, but not nearly as well. If it comes right down to it, the Witch-King can literally hover over the Great Gate too high to see and put out his fear aura to suppress the defenders while the orcs roll Grond up, then land, take out the gate, and the city is done. Union troops locked in melee combat with rabid uruks in an urban environment - especially, God forbid, at night - will be butchered.

Where is your citation that people cannot fight a nazgul from 100 yards? Further that their 'fear aura' is so strong that it could affect a gate from out of sight?

To refute both these points, but the second one certainly I point out that if a Nazgul could have that wide of an effect the witch king showing up for the battle would have ended it. If he could have that effect while defenders could not even see him there would have been no battle. His terror is only shown to start affecting people who are in his presence, as in he must ride into a group of enemies to crush their will. So yes he could crush the will of any individual group of riflemen, but then others beyond the range of his terror would be able to shoot him.
 
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I'm sorry, but this has no credibility.

I'm sorry, like I said I cannot support it further until I have a chance to get home. Would you accept a presumption that the wall was wide enough at the top if I find real world castle examples?

Would you accept that they could simply put cannon on the roofs of buildings in levels 1-2 as well given that they have a range of 1500 yards and those would thus allow them to fire over the city's own walls in those places where the city walls are not the prerequisite 12-21 feet in distance?

Failing that would you accept that they could use spikes to hold their cannon in place risking extra wear and tear on both barrel and carriages?

I am asking only because I do not see them having dificulty in finding good ways to defensively place cannon that would easily out range trebuchet's used by the attackers.


On to the other half of the argument however, the Nazgul. Can you support the range of the debilitating affect you claim they have?
 
I'm sorry, like I said I cannot support it further until I have a chance to get home.
A third hand source really does not matter to me: if we were to accept it as authoritative we may as well use fanfiction in this discussion. At best we might say that since Gandalf, Prince Imrahil, and his retainers were able to make circuits along the length of the wall without causing undue impediment to the fighting men there is enough space to physically put a gun carriage up along the battlements, but that is all we can derive by conjecturing from the actual novel. This does not in any way support the idea that Civil War-era guns could be fired safely atop the walls.

An important thing to ask ourselves is even if there were enough space for a gun to safely roll back after discharging, how would the guns actually be physically deployed there? Dragging a gun carriage up a set of stairs is a fanciful notion at best. The same applies to the thought regarding putting guns on top of the roofs of houses.

On to the other half of the argument however, the Nazgul. Can you support the range of the debilitating affect you claim they have?
I do believe I've already cited passages from The Return of the King to that effect earlier in the thread.

I'll restate my assertion that without the interference of the Nine, a single late-war era Civil War Union Corps (strength hollowed down by fighting) could probably win the battle on its own in an open field engagement.
 
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A third hand source really does not matter to me: if we were to accept it as authoritative we may as well use fanfiction in this discussion. At best we might say that since Gandalf, Prince Imrahil, and his retainers were able to make circuits along the length of the wall without causing undue impediment to the fighting men there is enough space to physically put a gun carriage up along the battlements, but that is all we can derive by conjecturing from the actual novel. This does not in any way support the idea that Civil War-era guns could be fired safely atop the walls.

An important thing to ask ourselves is even if there were enough space for a gun to safely roll back after discharging, how would the guns actually be physically deployed there? Dragging a gun carriage up a set of stairs is a fanciful notion at best. The same applies to the thought regarding putting guns on top of the roofs of houses.

Moving cannon is not that hard. They only weigh between 788 and 1227lbs. You could haul them up with a rope, letting the gun carriage itself do most of the work with the wheels themselves keeping it off the walls. Or a simple use of block and tackle would serve to do so. It is not as though a simple crane cannot be constructed within that time. It could be a problem if they had to do so without time, but they are stated to have a week to prepair.


I do believe I've already cited passages from The Return of the King to that effect earlier in the thread.

I'll restate my assertion that without the interference of the Nine, a single late-war era Civil War Union Corps (at full strength) could probably win the battle on its own in an open field engagement.

I'm sorry I've got my replies crossed and I am looking for Berzerker to defend his statement on how 'easy' it would be for the Nazgul to disrupt the defense.

The issue of the Nazgul, however, still doesn't have a good solution. The problem isn't that they'll attack the walls and starting causing casualties personally, the problem is that wherever they go the Union soldiers will stop fighting in favor of cowering, crying, and running away, just like Gondorian soldiers did. Without Gandalf the defenders have literally no way to deal with that - Imrahil can take over fear-suppression to an extent, but not nearly as well. If it comes right down to it, the Witch-King can literally hover over the Great Gate too high to see and put out his fear aura to suppress the defenders while the orcs roll Grond up, then land, take out the gate, and the city is done. Union troops locked in melee combat with rabid uruks in an urban environment - especially, God forbid, at night - will be butchered.
 
Where is your citation that people cannot fight a nazgul from 100 yards? Further that their 'fear aura' is so strong that it could affect a gate from out of sight?

To refute both these points, but the second one certainly I point out that if a Nazgul could have that wide of an effect the witch king showing up for the battle would have ended it. If he could have that effect while defenders could not even see him there would have been no battle. His terror is only shown to start affecting people who are in his presence, as in he must ride into a group of enemies to crush their will. So yes he could crush the will of any individual group of riflemen, but then others beyond the range of his terror would be able to shoot him.

The relevant passage has already been provided in this very thread.

'The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.'
*Emphasis mine

The mere presence of the Nazgul, so high up that they physically cannot be seen (and thus cannot be engaged, even with rifles and cannon) is enough to render veteran soldiers literally catatonic with horror whenever they pass overhead. Also relevant is this passage;

"But about the Gate resistance still was stout, and there the knights of Dol Amroth and the hardiest of the garrison stood at bay. Shot and dart fell thick; siege-towers crashed or blazed suddenly like torches. All before the walls on either side of the Gate the ground was choked with wreck and with bodies of the slain; yet still driven as by a madness more and more came up."

Ok, so here fighting is still going on. The defenders at the gate are doing ok; the knights of Dol Amroth, who have Numenorean blood, are there along with the very bravest soldiers, they have Gandalf with them, so despite the Nazgul overhead they're still fighting.

Of note here you can see the effect of the Witch-King on the orcs and Easterlings; driven by his will, they continue attacking even over literal mounds of their own dead.

"Grond crawled on. Upon its housing no fire would catch; and though now and again some great beast that hauled it would go mad and spread stamping ruin among the orcs innumerable that guarded it, their bodies were cast aside from its path and others took their place.
Grond crawled on. The drums rolled wildly. Over the hills of slain a hideous shape appeared: a horseman, tall, hooded, cloaked in black. Slowly, trampling the fallen, he rode forth, heeding no longer any dart. He halted and held up a long pale sword. And as he did so a great fear fell on all, defender and foe alike; and the hands of men drooped to their sides, and no bow sang. For a moment all was still."


The mere sight of the Witch-King is enough to freeze all these men - the very bravest men in the entire army, many of whom are personally superhuman to some degree - in place. Not to mention all the attacking orcs, too. How far is he, actually, from the gate? We don't know.

"The drums rolled and rattled. With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands. It reached the Gate. It swung. A deep boom rumbled through the City like thunder running in the clouds. But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke.
Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.
Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.
In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."


The actual approach of the Witch-King causes an instant rout. Every single defender except Gandalf - and remember, these are the very best soldiers in the army - literally just abandons their post and runs the fuck away. This is the kind of event that spells calamity for a unit and very likely an entire army, the one thing that soldiers are trained most ferociously to not do, and he causes it with his mere appearance.

In other words; yes, the Witch-King can "end the battle just by showing up". In fact, that is exactly what he did - his presence annihilated the Gondorian resistance, and if the Rohirrim had arrived twenty minutes later they would have been too late.
 
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I think you are mistaken. If you could not see them due to distance they would be out of hearing as well. Trust me on this I've watched eagles which are considerably smaller than fell beasts fly considerably high in the sky.

Now cloacked by cloud and smoke I would accept as an argument.

Further however it does not state all who stood against the cries gave in and gives explicit mention of those that do resist it and as said walk the walls bringing back up the moral while present. Much like the officers of an army might be expected to do while touring.

Before you bring up the "they had elf blood!" argument, keep in mind, so do the rest of the men of gondor, particularly those who live in its capital, and so that cannot be said to be the reason why some were affected and some not.

Lets move on, to the breaching of the gate. The panic from the witch king occurs only AFTER the gate has been knocked down, before then he was present at the side of Grond, and the defenders were still fighting and killing, even some of those ordinary gondorians that were not come with prince imrahil.

Lets extrapolate further, Grond required giant beasts to bring it to the gates, beasts that were dying to arrow fire. Now lets replace bows with musket and cannon and as a result Grond would not reach the gates, and could not breach them. Further the Witch King could then not cause a route because he simply could not get close enough. If he could they would not have been able to fight back before the gate fell.

So, in conclusion, yes moral suffers horribly due to Nazgul, but they are not enough to ruin it, and there are around 6 times as many defenders to help shore up each others moral or simply 6 times more men who will withstand the crippling terror, which means that at the figth at the gate there are 6 times as many men, with weapons that are far more effective, which means Grond doesnt reach the gate, and the Witch King fails to cause a rout there.
 
I think you are mistaken. If you could not see them due to distance they would be out of hearing as well. Trust me on this I've watched eagles which are considerably smaller than fell beasts fly considerably high in the sky.

Now cloacked by cloud and smoke I would accept as an argument.

Fine: due to Sauron's weather manipulation, the entire battle was indeed covered by dense, sun-blocking low cloud cover, and presumably the Nazgul concealed themselves in those clouds. But all that does is shift the range of the fear effect from "So huge it can't even be estimated" to "Really fuckin' long", because even very low clouds are still very high.

Further however it does not state all who stood against the cries gave in and gives explicit mention of those that do resist it and as said walk the walls bringing back up the moral while present. Much like the officers of an army might be expected to do while touring.

Incorrect, read the passage again. The ONLY people mentioned being able to resist the terror of the Nazgul were the ones near Gandalf. Imrahil and Gandalf were moving around together. Gandalf isn't here in this scenario.

"So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying: 'Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago.' And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of vanished years.
And yet - when they had gone, the shadows closed on men again, and their hearts went cold, and the valour of Gondor withered into ash. And so slowly they passed out of a dim day of fears into the darkness of a desperate night. Fires now raged unchecked in the first circle of the City, and the garrison upon the outer wall was already in many places cut off from retreat. But the faithful who remained there at their posts were few; most had fled beyond the second gate."


Lets move on, to the breaching of the gate. The panic from the witch king occurs only AFTER the gate has been knocked down, before then he was present at the side of Grond, and the defenders were still fighting and killing, even some of those ordinary gondorians that were not come with prince imrahil.

If by 'panic' you mean the actual rout, yes - but you are wrong when you say "the defenders were still fighting and killing" before the gate was knocked down. Read the passage again; the defenders stopped fighting as soon as the Witch-King raised his sword, before Grond even reached the gate.

Lets extrapolate further, Grond required giant beasts to bring it to the gates, beasts that were dying to arrow fire. Now lets replace bows with musket and cannon and as a result Grond would not reach the gates, and could not breach them. Further the Witch King could then not cause a route because he simply could not get close enough. If he could they would not have been able to fight back before the gate fell.

So, in conclusion, yes moral suffers horribly due to Nazgul, but they are not enough to ruin it, and there are around 6 times as many defenders to help shore up each others moral or simply 6 times more men who will withstand the crippling terror, which means that at the figth at the gate there are 6 times as many men, with weapons that are far more effective, which means Grond doesnt reach the gate, and the Witch King fails to cause a rout there.

All of this hinges on your assertion that the Gondorians were not incapacitated until after the gate was demolished, which isn't true.

It also ignores the fact that Gandalf was at the gate, and Gandalf's presence explicitly suppresses the Nazgul fear aura. Once again, the Union troops do not have Gandalf on their side. They will have no such mystical defense. . . and even Gandalf's fear-quelling failed when the Witch-King actually showed up to exert his power in person.
 
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Before you bring up the "they had elf blood!" argument, keep in mind, so do the rest of the men of gondor, particularly those who live in its capital, and so that cannot be said to be the reason why some were affected and some not.
They do not. The aftermath of the Kinstrife many years before the events of the book followed by many other wars and devastating plagues had pretty massive attritional effects on the Numenorean blessings the people of Gondor carried with them. By now most of the people in Gondor are not terribly different from other men, and Denethor and Faramir are notably exceptional in this regard. In that context we see the contrast between other Gondorian soldiers and the Knights of Dol Amroth:

'So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defense of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him wen the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Numenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying: 'Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land long ago.' And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of vanished years.'

In the eyes of other Gondorians a special power is in the men of Dol-Amroth to resist the shadow, though not the presence, of the Nine. Whether this is because their rumors have a grain of truth, because Numenorean blood runs stronger in Dol Amroth than elsewhere in the realm of Gondor, or simply because they are constantly standing by Gandalf is hard to say.
 
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Alright, I'll take a step back, and say this.

If you believe that no mortal man can stand against the fear of the nazgul this entire thread is meaningless.

It could be can an army of 10,000,000 men hold, or could the entire current US army, or a legion of monkeys. If the assertion is that no mortal may stand up against the Nazgul then there is no point to having this conversation.

Lets consider for a moment that its only the defenders on the walls of the first level that are being struck with fear, and only the cumulative effect that ruins them as soldiers. This dread fear does not incapacitate everyone in the city, it certainly hasnt incapacitated everyone up on the 7th level despite that they are closer to the source. This being the case unlike the defenders we can cycle men out every hour, so that despair cannot grow so strong, so that they can go inside houses, before cheery fires and fight off some of the dread. Instead of needing to spend 12 hours constantly on the wall being ground down to nothing.

Also please go back and reread the portion on Grond. Specifically the point at which Grond is aproaching the gates and Tolkien specifically mentions its beasts of burden are requiring replacement. Then notice that he also specifically states that the toughest men of Gondor are still at the wall. Small peny packets but still at the wall. Now remember that 30,000 men is enough to put 7 men at every 1 foot of wall with a reserve of almost 5,000 men to man artillery.

So how many men of gondor actually were still fighting when Grond was brought up. 10? 50? If its ten then 1 in 500 men is strong enough to face the fear, if 50, 1 in 100. So with your 30,000 man army you could expect 60 - 300 men. or again 6x as many defenders at the walls. with weapons at least 2x as effective, the ram would never reach the point where the Wich king unsheaths his sword for it to march the final distance and bring down the gate.

Or, no mortals can stand and it doesn't matter what defending force you use.

Edit: I have gotten home, there is no canonical support for the depth of the battlements being 30 feet, I can only point to common sense in architectural design and precedence in the form of real world fortress walls and aspect ratios.
 
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Alright, I'll take a step back, and say this.

If you believe that no mortal man can stand against the fear of the nazgul this entire thread is meaningless.

It could be can an army of 10,000,000 men hold, or could the entire current US army, or a legion of monkeys. If the assertion is that no mortal may stand up against the Nazgul then there is no point to having this conversation.

Lets consider for a moment that its only the defenders on the walls of the first level that are being struck with fear, and only the cumulative effect that ruins them as soldiers. This dread fear does not incapacitate everyone in the city, it certainly hasnt incapacitated everyone up on the 7th level despite that they are closer to the source. This being the case unlike the defenders we can cycle men out every hour, so that despair cannot grow so strong, so that they can go inside houses, before cheery fires and fight off some of the dread. Instead of needing to spend 12 hours constantly on the wall being ground down to nothing.

Also please go back and reread the portion on Grond. Specifically the point at which Grond is aproaching the gates and Tolkien specifically mentions its beasts of burden are requiring replacement. Then notice that he also specifically states that the toughest men of Gondor are still at the wall. Small peny packets but still at the wall. Now remember that 30,000 men is enough to put 7 men at every 1 foot of wall with a reserve of almost 5,000 men to man artillery.

So how many men of gondor actually were still fighting when Grond was brought up. 10? 50? If its ten then 1 in 500 men is strong enough to face the fear, if 50, 1 in 100. So with your 30,000 man army you could expect 60 - 300 men. or again 6x as many defenders at the walls. with weapons at least 2x as effective, the ram would never reach the point where the Wich king unsheaths his sword for it to march the final distance and bring down the gate.

Or, no mortals can stand and it doesn't matter what defending force you use.

Edit: I have gotten home, there is no canonical support for the depth of the battlements being 30 feet, I can only point to common sense in architectural design and precedence in the form of real world fortress walls and aspect ratios.

The canonical fact is that, without Gandalf nearby, the Gondorian soldiers were rendered helpless whenever the Nazgul flew by. The men at gates were still fighting (up until the point when the Witch-King showed up and casually crushed their wills)? Yes, indeed they were, but not because they were capable of fighting it off themselves. Gandalf was there.

The mortal soldiers still matter because the fact is that the Nazgul cannot be everywhere at once, and the Witch-King can either be exercising command behind the lines or crushing the will of the enemy at a critical point, but not both. Ten million Gondorians could hold the city without a doubt, simply because they would kill any orc not immediately in the Witch-King's presence and Gandalf would constantly be surrounded by ten thousand elites who would use his magical defenses to prevent the orcs from ever gaining a foothold.

But the fact is that the wall has a single point of failure, and if there's no Gandalf to hold the defenders together the Witch-King can and will shatter them, force the gate, and flood the city with orcs. And once they're embroiled in nighttime urban combat against orcs, the Union troops will be butchered to a man.
 
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You just stated that nazgul flying above the city could eliminate every single defender.

The canonical fact is that, without Gandalf nearby, the Gondorian soldiers were rendered helpless whenever the Nazgul flew by.

So, there is no point in this argument, ten million defenders doesnt matter because as your above fact states, without gandolf none fight.
 
You just stated that nazgul flying above the city could eliminate every single defender.



So, there is no point in this argument, ten million defenders doesnt matter because as your above fact states, without gandolf none fight.

Well there's definitely no point to the argument if you don't read what I write, that's for sure.
 
Reread what you stated.

That without gandalf the men on the walls could not fight, and that without gandalf the men at the gate could not fight.

The witch king therefore does not need to assault the gate if gandalf is not there. Because no men of gondor can fight.

Read what you yourself have written.

When I said that a portion of men on the walls would be able to fight you said no, the nazgul would crush their will. When I said men at the gates would be able to fight, the best of the best of gondor you said no, not without gandalf.

What is your view if what I understand above is not true?
 
When I said that a portion of men on the walls would be able to fight you said no, the nazgul would crush their will. When I said men at the gates would be able to fight, the best of the best of gondor you said no, not without gandalf

What he meant is that when the Nazgul sweep above them or project their fear, no one in the affected region can fight or at best very poorly. Otherwise they can. The moment the Witch King takes the field the men would be whimpering for their mothers.
 
Except the entire walls are noted to be affected at the same time. So there is no, "affected region" or rather, the "affected region" is all of Minas Tirith.
 
Except the entire walls are noted to be affected at the same time. So there is no, "affected region" or rather, the "affected region" is all of Minas Tirith.

No.

Or rather, yes, there was a general despair, but it only reached the pitch of "weapons fell from their hands, and they thought no more of fighting, but of crawling, and darkness, and death" when one of the Nazgul was actually flying overhead.
 
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Look you can't have it both ways.

Either they are not affected badly enough and can fight back, or they are affected too badly to fight and die. In one scenario they have guns and range and the ram never makes it to the gates and in the other nothing matters. Pick which method you want and stick to it. Or give proof that "overhead" for a city that is less than a mile across means that "overhead" is meant to be taken extremely literally and the Nazgul have something like a 5 or 25 meter radius beneath them being affected and not the entire length of the wall despite being greater than the length of the wall up in the air.

Pick which way you want to argue it, then we can go on but I am not going to try to point out flaws in an argument that is willing to change itself at need for whichever method you propose at the moment.
 
Look you can't have it both ways.

Either they are not affected badly enough and can fight back, or they are affected too badly to fight and die. In one scenario they have guns and range and the ram never makes it to the gates and in the other nothing matters. Pick which method you want and stick to it. Or give proof that "overhead" for a city that is less than a mile across means that "overhead" is meant to be taken extremely literally and the Nazgul have something like a 5 or 25 meter radius beneath them being affected and not the entire length of the wall despite being greater than the length of the wall up in the air.

Pick which way you want to argue it, then we can go on but I am not going to try to point out flaws in an argument that is willing to change itself at need for whichever method you propose at the moment.

At this point all I can say is that before you decide to engage in an argument about a scenario largely based on a novel, you need to go read the parts of the novel in question. Return Of The King, Chapter Four, "The Siege Of Gondor". You can find it online for free if you don't have a copy.
 
In rides the Lord of the Nazgul! A great black shape against the fires beyond he looms up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rides the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all flee before his face!
And Tolkein for his part saw WW1 in the trenches. As @minow said once in a different thread:

'In regards to fear, I'd just like to note that Tolkien served on the front lines in WWI. I've no doubt he had a rather mature and deep understanding of fear in its varied ways, and when he wrote that someone was without fear, I expect that he meant they were utterly without fear, not the sort of "I'm afraid but my courage overcomes it" that any combat soldier has probably experienced. Where you place Eowyn's "faithful beyond fear" on this scale might be a matter of some debate, but surely when a man who lived through (and didn't run from) front-lines combat in WWI writes something as so scary that battle-hardened soldiers simply flee from it, he means it to be really fucking scary.'
It's no exaggeration that Tolkien saw almost every single one of his close friends from childhood die in the War. Many have noted how the defenders along the walls behave like victims of what was then understood as shell-shock. You can quibble as hard as you like, but Tolkien depicts the fear the Nine projected at the Gladden Fields as not just a base animal fear, but a despair beyond mortal writ to withstand from deeply personal experience. The only mortal not of Numenorean or Elven constitution to actually stand without the presence of one who could shield them from their influence was someone who wanted with the fullness of hope to die a self-made martyr.

When the Witch King entered through the ruined gates of the once impregnable city, only Gandalf was there to meet him.

I don't think the importance of this factor can be overestimated. It's pretty clear that no mortal men not in the possession of divine grace could resist the terror of the Nine its height. However, I think there's something rather interesting here that may have been missed.

To start off with, we need to go back to basics. Tolkien was a deeply devout Catholic. In Middle Earth's legendarium he wanted to create a mythic prehistory of the world which was still consistent with Christian and in particular Catholic teaching. He was vastly more subtle (and proportionately more effective) at doing this than his friend C.S. Lewis, but it's still pretty straightforward. Eru is the Christian God, not just figuratively, but literally, and the same goes for Morgoth as Lucifer. There is even an origin story of humanity in Middle Earth, the Tale of Adanel, which Tolkien only hinted at in the Silmarillion but is provided in full in one of the volumes of his collected writings. This is essentially the Eden story but with tribes of humans instead of Adam and Eve, and Morgoth as the Serpent, and Original Sin taking the form of humans being seduced by Morgoth's and eventually worshipping him in place of Eru, before some (the ancestors of the heroic Edain of the First Age who gave rise to the Númenóreans) repented.

We can also see the Christian theology underpinning Middle Earth reflected in the veneration that the Elves and more noble men give to Eru. They venerate him, but they have no organized religion because they predate even Abraham by eons, and positing an organized Abrahamic religion before Abraham would be deeply blasphemous! (In fact, the Noldor and Numenoreans predate the Flood, which may or may not in Middle Earth be the same thing as the Downfall of Númenor.) Indeed, Tolkien himself reckoned that the Fall of Barad-Dur was roughly six thousand years distant from modern days, putting the twentieth century somewhere between the Fifth to Seventh Age depending on how it is reckoned. As far as Tolkien would be concerned if you asked him, the War of the Ring was not a fantasy story to the Union soldiers, it is an event which happened in their ancient past.

Now it's worth asking the question, did anything significant occur in the intervening millennia between Sauron's downfall and the American Civil War?

To a devout Christian like Tolkien, the most important event in history happened in that time. It is an event which means every Union soldier, especially the faithful amongst them, carries with them a grace that even Elendil or the mightiest amongst the Elves did not possess. It is a grace which means that the terror of the Nazgûl, which is but merely the faded after-echo of that terrible fear and darkness which pursued the first Men who fled out of Hildórien, may frighten and alarm the Union soldiers, but cannot rob them of their wills. Their hearts have been vouchsafed by another, a king even mightier than Melkor or Manwë Súlimo.

They have been Washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

 
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