Union Troops defend Minas Tirith against Saurons army.

So for this debate a force of Thirty or forty thousand union troops and whatever support weapons they'd have replace the Forces at Minas Tirith. How would they do compared to the original defenders?

They each have one-hundred bullets each and have a weeks prep to set things up.
 
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How much supplies do they have? What kind of weapons stock? How much prep time do they get, if any?

They are going to do some serious damage to the Orks, but with the Nazgul flying about, catapults flinging rocks at the city, and numerous archers firing on the walls, they will still only delay the inevitable. And once the Orks breach the city gates, they won't do much in melee combat, especially not in urban environment.

Wait does Aragorn still arrive with the Army of the Dead and King Theoden with his Rohirim? If so, then they could well hold out untill they arrive.
 
How much supplies do they have? What kind of weapons stock? How much prep time do they get, if any?

They are going to do some serious damage to the Orks, but with the Nazgul flying about, catapults flinging rocks at the city, and numerous archers firing on the walls, they will still only delay the inevitable. And once the Orks breach the city gates, they won't do much in melee combat, especially not in urban environment.

Wait does Aragorn still arrive with the Army of the Dead and King Theoden with his Rohirim? If so, then they could well hold out untill they arrive.

They have enough bullets that each man can carry fifty on them, they have the amount of cannons that would usually be in a force this large, they have no cavalry but they d have banets for their troops, and they have a weeks prep to set thing up. Also question. Did the union have anything close to Gatling guns? If so they also have a few of those.

Movie or book LotR ?

Let's say Book then Movie.
 
They have enough bullets that each man can carry fifty on them, they have the amount of cannons that would usually be in a force this large, they have no cavalry but they d have banets for their troops, and they have a weeks prep to set thing up. Also question. Did the union have anything close to Gatling guns? If so they also have a few of those.



Let's say Book then Movie.
That's quite a lot of bullets per man, what about gunpowder?

well the Gatling gun was invented at the time of the Civil War. But it never saw mass production, it was mainly prototypical.
 
That's quite a lot of bullets per man, what about gunpowder?

well the Gatling gun was invented at the time of the Civil War. But it never saw mass production, it was mainly prototypical.


Fine then let's say each of tehm has enough to carry thirty each. As for the gatling, let's say they have a very small amount like let's say thirty or fifty with a few hundred round each.

Are the Prince of Dol Amroth and Gandalf still present?

The prince of what? Also no Gandalf is not.
 
In rides the Lord of the Nazgul! A great black shape against the fires beyond he looms up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rides the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all flee before his face!
 
The Prince of Dol Amroth rides out with Gandalf beside him, and bullets flying past them. The Orcs and evil men see that powerful sorcery is with them and flee. Not that Imrahil cannot do it by himself.
 
In rides the Lord of the Nazgul! A great black shape against the fires beyond he looms up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rides the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all flee before his face!

Counterpoint:

While grapeshot won't permanently kill the Witch King, it should shatter his corporeal form enough that he'd need to re-form back in Mordor.

And given that the Union Army endured bloodbaths like Fredericksburg, Shiloh, and Cold Harbor, I think there would be some amongst that 30, 000 whose hearts would not grow cold, who could battle back despair at least long enough to train an artillery piece and fire it.

Although that brings up another point:

Are these Union troops from the kick off of the war in 1861 or the finale in 1865? Which general is in command?

Because a McClellan led force from the First Battle of Bull Run era is going to perform a lot differently from than the men Ulysses S. Grant brought into the Wilderness.
 
And given that the Union Army endured bloodbaths like Fredericksburg, Shiloh, and Cold Harbor, I think there would be some amongst that 30, 000 whose hearts would not grow cold, who could battle back despair at least long enough to train an artillery piece and fire it.

And Tolkein for his part saw WW1 in the trenches. As @minow said once in a different thread:

'In regards to fear, I'd just like to note that Tolkien served on the front lines in WWI. I've no doubt he had a rather mature and deep understanding of fear in its varied ways, and when he wrote that someone was without fear, I expect that he meant they were utterly without fear, not the sort of "I'm afraid but my courage overcomes it" that any combat soldier has probably experienced. Where you place Eowyn's "faithful beyond fear" on this scale might be a matter of some debate, but surely when a man who lived through (and didn't run from) front-lines combat in WWI writes something as so scary that battle-hardened soldiers simply flee from it, he means it to be really fucking scary.'

It's no exaggeration that Tolkien saw almost every single one of his close friends from childhood die in the War. Many have noted how the defenders along the walls behave like victims of what was then understood as shell-shock. You can quibble as hard as you like, but Tolkien depicts the fear the Nine projected at the Gladden Fields as not just a base animal fear, but a despair beyond mortal writ to withstand from deeply personal experience. The only mortal not of Numenorean or Elven constitution to actually stand without the presence of one who could shield them from their influence was someone who wanted with the fullness of hope to die a self-made martyr.

When the Witch King entered through the ruined gates of the once impregnable city, only Gandalf was there to meet him.
 
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Ahem.

And also Meriadoc Brandybuck, but given that hobbits possess a resistance to magic that possibly exceeds that of Elves (ex the One Ring failing to wraith Smeagol) that isn't exactly a booming refutation of your point.
 
Wasn't Theoden trying to come to grips with the Witch King when Snowmane panicked and threw him?

Or am I mixing up that he was trying to take the Easterling banner when the Lord of Minas Morgul descended upon him?
 
Wasn't Theoden trying to come to grips with the Witch King when Snowmane panicked and threw him?
We know that he was calling for his retainers who were flying every which way or, "grovelling on the ground" to himself. It's hard to say though if he even recognized what was occurring as the onset of one of the Nine or simply just a return of the darkness that had covered the battlefield when he had arrived.

Edit: The passage in question:

"But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed. The new morning was blotted from the sky. Dark fell about him. Horses reared and screamed. Men cast from the saddle lay grovelling on the ground.

'To me! To me!' cried Theoden. 'Up Eorlingas! Fear no Darkness!' But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him.
 
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Given that the same retainers who were flying and groveling on the ground in the quoted passage had gladly charged out of Helm's Deep to almost certain destruction beside their king in The Two Towers...I concede.
 
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Allowing him changes nothing. He will be flying astride his fellbeast, and while HE won't be hurt by bullets, that fellbeast can be shot out from under him just fine. Once his effect on the troops is noted, set up an artillery barrage for a specific spot where you intend to shoot him down then have the marksmen drop his mount. The second he hits, unleash hell.
 
Allowing him changes nothing. He will be flying astride his fellbeast, and while HE won't be hurt by bullets, that fellbeast can be shot out from under him just fine. Once his effect on the troops is noted, set up an artillery barrage for a specific spot where you intend to shoot him down then have the marksmen drop his mount. The second he hits, unleash hell.

In the earlier parts of the battle he flew high beyond the range of bowshot circling above the city, how are you gonna getyour cannons to fire on such a position?
 
Considering the abysmal accuracy Civil War troops on good ground displayed when firing at dense phalanxes of their opposing countrymen advancing at walking pace? The Fell Beasts are quite safe, particularly since as the for most of the battle they were a presence felt but not seen:

'The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.'
*Emphasis mine

Having said that, if there was any arm that could discomfit the designs of the Nine in this battle, it would be the artillery. As Ardant du Picq writes in his Battle Studies, "Artillery in battle has its men grouped around the pieces, stationary assembly points, broadly distributed, each one having its commander and its cannoneers, who are always the same. Thus there is in effect a roll call each time artillery is put into battery. Artillery carries its men with it; they cannot be lost nor can they hide. If the officer is brave, his men rarely desert him. Certainly, in all armies, it is in the artillery that the soldier can best perform his duty."

However, it's questionable how much of a role even the artillery could play in the battle. Between the limited gun depression of most period gun carriages, the careful siege tactics of the attacking force, and the possibility that the space on the walls would be insufficient for the safe deployment of batteries as the recoil from fire rolled cannon back significantly after any particular shot, any direct fire pieces the Union army has with them may be unable to participate to any significant degree. Their effect on events requires some assumptions. Depending on when it is that the Union army arrived and their willingness to take advice they could commit to digging earthworks with their backs to the walls of Minas Tirith, with a grand battery in Napoleonic style under Gandalf's direct influence as much as possible. This hornet's nest of firepower would significantly harm the Black Captain's devices, slowing the Enemy as they pour over the Pelennor fields for as long as their ammunition and will holds and particularly preventing the deployment of the many engines that had been prepared.

However the power of the Nine only grew over the course of the battle and even those working the guns will begin to fail the test. As their fire slackens so too will all hope. It is however not beyond possibility that they manage to hold firm until morning as opposed to the original defense of Gondor, which collapsed just before sunrise, if the Witch King shies away from the Union army's firepower. He might not, and therein is the risk. With his will driving them and the general obedience to drill the orcs and uruks in his army displayed, they may instead mask themselves as best they can with the rolling terrain and press the attack.
 
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What about mounting the main defense BEHIND the first gate, with massed batteries of artillery placed along main roads? If batteries can be placed to cover the gate and sweep the top of the wall, they might be able to inflict a LOT of damage on the uruks as they funnel through limited entrance points.

The downside, or course, being that this entails engaging in urban combat with a hundred thousand orcs and uruks, so. . .
 
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