- Location
- Everywhere, Anywhere, Nowhere.
[X] Check on Gwen's injuries
[X] Ask what happened up here?
[X] Talk about the green flying man
[X] Ask what happened up here?
[X] Talk about the green flying man
The Young Avengers Initiative
- Thread starter Wightraven
- Start date
- Location
- The Trash Pile
So far I'm not having an issue with it. Maybe I just process data funny.
009 - When First We Practice To Deceive L
- Location
- The Trash Pile
Winner: Check on Gwen's injuries
Number of voters: 10
Winner: Talk about the green flying man/Ask what happened up here
Number of voters: 7
Winner: Ask Spider-man about his costume
Number of voters: 4
You sigh and start mentally preparing to talk to the police. Usually you feel a lot more on the right side of the law when you do this, so there's a little anxiety in your tummy, but you're so exhausted from exerting yourself with your powers and emotionally drained from the memories and fighting with Black Cat and... everything else tonight. First things first, Gwen needs her wound taken care of. You turn to face her and notice that Black Cat seems to have vanished at the sight of police. Fortunately Gwen is already pulling her costume aside to expose the injury and do a little self-inspection. You say nothing, batting gently at her hands to get to it yourself. It really does seem superficial; a long scrape across her upper chest and shoulder. It's just... bleeding a lot. Or it was. It mostly seems to have stopped now.
"You're right," you nod, "you'll be fine. The EMTs will be able to clean you up better than I can without supplies, and they should be here soon."
She nods. "Thanks, Fortune."
You nod back, almost too tired to smile politely. Almost. "So... what happened up here? I got... snippets, but then everything went... well..." you glance at Gwen, who's averting her eyes from the whole situation.
"Ghost Spider shouted out Harry Osborn's name, an'... well, I know him, actually. We been pretty good friends for a while an'... ah... I put a few things together. It had to be him. But... he wasn't actin' like himself. So I pulled back my mask an' tried talkin' to him. He opened up his helmet-thing like Mr. Stark does, an' there he was." There's something somber in his face. He casts his eyes downward and shakes his head. "Only... he didn't say nothin'. Not sure he was all there. Not sure what's been goin' through his head lately..."
"OK..." the words sound tired coming out of your mouth. More tired than you even thought you were. It's hard to stay as chipper and even-toned as you prefer to be in these situations. "That explains why you had your face exposed. Why did she?" you gesture to Gwen.
"Osborn said his name," she points to Spider-man.
"Peter," Emulator nods, "you shorta shrieked it into our heads before your little freakout mind's eye theatre."
"He recognized me," Spider-man clarifies.
"Well... anyhow, I started... feeling claustrophobic. Couldn't breathe. Had to take my mask off, and..." she and Spider-man look at each other for a long, long time. "Well, then you came upstairs."
Spidey turns back to you and shrugs. "Harry must've already closed the helmet by then. He didn't seem that shaken by things, he was... he was fightin' alongside us for a while. Once he saw... Sytsevich, you said his name was?" Gwen nods. "I need to find him... try to talk to him, but uh... I feel like there's some things that need handled here, that'll go smoother if I'm here to help handle 'em."
"Well, thank you for that, Spider-man." You catch eyes with him. Or... you try to. "By the way, what's with the new suit? Not thinking happy thoughts so much these days?" You try to hide the intention in your voice a little bit, but even the dimmest bulb would know you're trying to make secret-talk in front of people who don't know a secret.
"Ah, hah. No," Spidey waves it off and turns his body to obscure his hands from the rest of the room. He wiggles his thumbs in a texting motion and nods at you very intently. "Just tryin' out somethin' new. Black's better for stealth, an'... y'know. Spiders are black. Not really sure why I went for red an' blue in the first place. Superman, maybe." He chuckles again.
It's about this time the police arrive with Quentin, and the five of you take turns giving statements and getting checked out by medics. The Oscorp goons are roused and give their statements as well. The night seems to drag, and your weariness and mood aren't helped at all by what you accidentally see while waiting for Quentin to finish talking to the police. Peter and Gwen have wandered off away from things and are talking quietly with each other. It's hard to read emotions through masks, but there's a lot of vulnerable body language from Gwen, and a lot of careful understanding from Peter. There's a pause between them, and she pulls up the bottom of her mask. The klyntar pulls away from the lower half of Peter's face as well, and the two's lips meet in a soft, chaste kiss.
"You guys are free to go," a thick Brooklyn accent says suddenly, behind you.
"Wha?" You're more distracted than startled, and turn to see the moustachioed man in charge of the proceedings here; a Lieutenant Scarfe.
"It's gonna take some time to sort through everything. Osborn's not pressing charges for now, an' the department needs some time to collect evidence of wrongdoing before we officially hand this over to the Avengers. So. You guys can go."
You nod, tired, dazed, and not sure how to feel about much of anything. Arguing would probably not serve any purpose; Lt. Scarfe is being very cordial, but firm. His words say you can go, and the look in his eyes says you should. It's just as well; it's late. You have class tomorrow... and as soon as you can make time for it, something to follow up on...
Who Do You Endeavor to Talk To Tomorrow?
[ ] Gwen
[ ] Spider-man
[ ] Write-in
OOC: Please exclude Tony Stark from any write-in votes. You'll be catching up with him soon enough...
Number of voters: 10
Winner: Talk about the green flying man/Ask what happened up here
Number of voters: 7
Winner: Ask Spider-man about his costume
Number of voters: 4
You sigh and start mentally preparing to talk to the police. Usually you feel a lot more on the right side of the law when you do this, so there's a little anxiety in your tummy, but you're so exhausted from exerting yourself with your powers and emotionally drained from the memories and fighting with Black Cat and... everything else tonight. First things first, Gwen needs her wound taken care of. You turn to face her and notice that Black Cat seems to have vanished at the sight of police. Fortunately Gwen is already pulling her costume aside to expose the injury and do a little self-inspection. You say nothing, batting gently at her hands to get to it yourself. It really does seem superficial; a long scrape across her upper chest and shoulder. It's just... bleeding a lot. Or it was. It mostly seems to have stopped now.
"You're right," you nod, "you'll be fine. The EMTs will be able to clean you up better than I can without supplies, and they should be here soon."
She nods. "Thanks, Fortune."
You nod back, almost too tired to smile politely. Almost. "So... what happened up here? I got... snippets, but then everything went... well..." you glance at Gwen, who's averting her eyes from the whole situation.
"Ghost Spider shouted out Harry Osborn's name, an'... well, I know him, actually. We been pretty good friends for a while an'... ah... I put a few things together. It had to be him. But... he wasn't actin' like himself. So I pulled back my mask an' tried talkin' to him. He opened up his helmet-thing like Mr. Stark does, an' there he was." There's something somber in his face. He casts his eyes downward and shakes his head. "Only... he didn't say nothin'. Not sure he was all there. Not sure what's been goin' through his head lately..."
"OK..." the words sound tired coming out of your mouth. More tired than you even thought you were. It's hard to stay as chipper and even-toned as you prefer to be in these situations. "That explains why you had your face exposed. Why did she?" you gesture to Gwen.
"Osborn said his name," she points to Spider-man.
"Peter," Emulator nods, "you shorta shrieked it into our heads before your little freakout mind's eye theatre."
"He recognized me," Spider-man clarifies.
"Well... anyhow, I started... feeling claustrophobic. Couldn't breathe. Had to take my mask off, and..." she and Spider-man look at each other for a long, long time. "Well, then you came upstairs."
Spidey turns back to you and shrugs. "Harry must've already closed the helmet by then. He didn't seem that shaken by things, he was... he was fightin' alongside us for a while. Once he saw... Sytsevich, you said his name was?" Gwen nods. "I need to find him... try to talk to him, but uh... I feel like there's some things that need handled here, that'll go smoother if I'm here to help handle 'em."
"Well, thank you for that, Spider-man." You catch eyes with him. Or... you try to. "By the way, what's with the new suit? Not thinking happy thoughts so much these days?" You try to hide the intention in your voice a little bit, but even the dimmest bulb would know you're trying to make secret-talk in front of people who don't know a secret.
"Ah, hah. No," Spidey waves it off and turns his body to obscure his hands from the rest of the room. He wiggles his thumbs in a texting motion and nods at you very intently. "Just tryin' out somethin' new. Black's better for stealth, an'... y'know. Spiders are black. Not really sure why I went for red an' blue in the first place. Superman, maybe." He chuckles again.
It's about this time the police arrive with Quentin, and the five of you take turns giving statements and getting checked out by medics. The Oscorp goons are roused and give their statements as well. The night seems to drag, and your weariness and mood aren't helped at all by what you accidentally see while waiting for Quentin to finish talking to the police. Peter and Gwen have wandered off away from things and are talking quietly with each other. It's hard to read emotions through masks, but there's a lot of vulnerable body language from Gwen, and a lot of careful understanding from Peter. There's a pause between them, and she pulls up the bottom of her mask. The klyntar pulls away from the lower half of Peter's face as well, and the two's lips meet in a soft, chaste kiss.
"You guys are free to go," a thick Brooklyn accent says suddenly, behind you.
"Wha?" You're more distracted than startled, and turn to see the moustachioed man in charge of the proceedings here; a Lieutenant Scarfe.
"It's gonna take some time to sort through everything. Osborn's not pressing charges for now, an' the department needs some time to collect evidence of wrongdoing before we officially hand this over to the Avengers. So. You guys can go."
You nod, tired, dazed, and not sure how to feel about much of anything. Arguing would probably not serve any purpose; Lt. Scarfe is being very cordial, but firm. His words say you can go, and the look in his eyes says you should. It's just as well; it's late. You have class tomorrow... and as soon as you can make time for it, something to follow up on...
Who Do You Endeavor to Talk To Tomorrow?
[ ] Gwen
[ ] Spider-man
[ ] Write-in
OOC: Please exclude Tony Stark from any write-in votes. You'll be catching up with him soon enough...
Should have send the info to Stark at this rate Oscorp will have a story to explain away plus their social media experts could attack the team's rep. Honesty I feel like we're in trouble with the unofficial mission that hit a public company.
Best to get the full picture before making our move.
Hmm I would be surprise if there is romance coming out of this since both have very different loaded history of each other....emotional closure since his Gwen died from the fall and her Peter died from the mutant effect?
Best to get the full picture before making our move.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Gwen
I'm a bit confused and I have no idea what Vilina's gonna say, but I think it's important to talk to Gwen.
The main source of my confusion is that Vilina is super weird and I can't tell what she's thinking or what she's feeling. Like, she's been trudging through update after update with either a lack of internal monologue or general lack of information, no context to anything, and the other readers seem to know more because of meta knowledge or deductions, i dunno. Whereas Vilina is just there as a passive observer. I get she's emotionally exhausted, but it doesn't give me an idea of what we're even supposed to be doing.
I think the biggest problem i have with this whole arc is that we've been going through update after update with minimal information, lack of context, bad planning that we're trying to fix because we didn't get to ask questions before it happened, characters that I'm not sure if we're supposed to care for, action scenes that happen offscreen while Vilina is making this bland inner monologue that you could replace with any YA novel heroine and it wouldn't be any different...
Like, I don't even get what my source of frustration is with this arc. Part of it is our role and the decisions we made to enforce that role. Of course the luck machine is going to be stuck with the most boring job, but that doesn't make for a very compelling story. I came in to this arc excited we're getting a Gwen arc, maybe we could FINALLY have some relationship development between Vilina and Gwen; whether that's friendship or whatever I didn't care. I just wanted more of that.
And I'm just... not very satisfied with the whole thing? I'm still struggling to understand it myself. Part of it is that i'm starting to feel Vilina is a really bland person who has SOME fun interactions, but that's more because of the other character, someone like Kitty or Other Gwen who makes it interesting, not Vilina. I enjoyed the dance scene with Gwen, i felt it was a strong emotional sequence... but there is little on screen follow up and we're interacting with Other Gwen more than we do Gwen...
Ugh, I hate making this post. But I just wanted to get it off my chest.
I'm a bit confused and I have no idea what Vilina's gonna say, but I think it's important to talk to Gwen.
The main source of my confusion is that Vilina is super weird and I can't tell what she's thinking or what she's feeling. Like, she's been trudging through update after update with either a lack of internal monologue or general lack of information, no context to anything, and the other readers seem to know more because of meta knowledge or deductions, i dunno. Whereas Vilina is just there as a passive observer. I get she's emotionally exhausted, but it doesn't give me an idea of what we're even supposed to be doing.
I think the biggest problem i have with this whole arc is that we've been going through update after update with minimal information, lack of context, bad planning that we're trying to fix because we didn't get to ask questions before it happened, characters that I'm not sure if we're supposed to care for, action scenes that happen offscreen while Vilina is making this bland inner monologue that you could replace with any YA novel heroine and it wouldn't be any different...
Like, I don't even get what my source of frustration is with this arc. Part of it is our role and the decisions we made to enforce that role. Of course the luck machine is going to be stuck with the most boring job, but that doesn't make for a very compelling story. I came in to this arc excited we're getting a Gwen arc, maybe we could FINALLY have some relationship development between Vilina and Gwen; whether that's friendship or whatever I didn't care. I just wanted more of that.
And I'm just... not very satisfied with the whole thing? I'm still struggling to understand it myself. Part of it is that i'm starting to feel Vilina is a really bland person who has SOME fun interactions, but that's more because of the other character, someone like Kitty or Other Gwen who makes it interesting, not Vilina. I enjoyed the dance scene with Gwen, i felt it was a strong emotional sequence... but there is little on screen follow up and we're interacting with Other Gwen more than we do Gwen...
Ugh, I hate making this post. But I just wanted to get it off my chest.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I really doubt a difference of hours is going to matter here, and there's no reason Emulator won't pass the info up the chain at the earliest opportunity.
We actually have no idea how (or if, though last update implied it, I think) this universe's Gwen died - the normal comics version of her death is during a fight with the Green Goblin, IIRC, which obviously hasn't happened the same way here.
Hm. Could you try & articulate what the main things you're looking for out of this quest are, in general? It might help pin down why you feel something's off about the latest arc if we can figure out what you feel is missing from it in more detail.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I said it in brief bursts, so it probably wasn't the most coherent. Well, here's a little of what I think I'm not enjoying:
Vilina. I've said this before, but I want to like her, I really do... but she strikes me as kinda bland. At certain times she can be funny and sarcastic, but a lot of the time I feel like she's just playing off other characters, characters who I'm starting to feel like I care and like more than I do the MC... And I personally find that a problem. I think part of what I consider a problem might be the small updates? Because a lot of the time, I feel like updates are "this, this and this happens", with little internal thoughts and emotions being presented for us so that we care about Vil. When her friends get hurt, I don't feel her distress and panic. You could justify it as "she's cool headed".... but I don't like that explanation a lot? i feel like Vilina is supposed to be a regular girl, not a hardened soldier trained to surpress emotional reactions like panic and fear for her friends, who she seems to value.
I also like the story as a whole, but I didn't like this arc and Vilina in it because she really felt like a robot fulfilling the player's wishes. Her insecurities, doubts, fears, feelings and everything don't come through to me as much as I feel like she's a puppet being controlled by the thread. This update was a perfect opportunity to show her emotions, after all she's supposed to have strong feelings regarding Gwen, but all we get is a lukewarm "you're fine" and "You're not sure what you're supposed to feel". I get she's emotionally exhausted, but it doesn't really get me invested in her as a character, especially since she didn't do much to endear me to her as one in this arc.
The second main problem I had was the arc's structure and the way we went about it. Essentially, we got into a heist mission where we're supposed to pick up information from a place because Gwen is obsessive about it for reasons we don't know, we meet characters we don't know or care about (Black Cat and Emulator), we have a couple updates where we argue about the plan, we enter the place as support for the hacker, then we just turn our power on and let her do everything for multiple updates where we just sit around and hear people talking in our head fighting a bunch of characters we've never met and only know about because of info dumps we got from this arc, and it all happens off screen with Vilina just... sitting there.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the second point is the fault of Wightraven, they did the best they could given the circumstances and the choices we made, and the player base did what was logical and most efficient for the mission. But from a reader perspective, it's not particularly gripping or interesting and makes me feel like I lack investment. Do I really care about this whole thing? Honestly, I really don't. All I care about is Gwen, and therein comes my third issue.
Gwen. I like Gwen and was part of the people who wanted to see her often... but ever since the dance scene, I've been feeling like something was off and I didn't know what it was. One part of it is that we get so very little of her. I didn't count, but I'm pretty sure we got more Other Gwen development after the dance scene than we got Gwen development, and I find that concerning because Vilina has a crush on her and goes jogging with her every day? Like, there were a couple paragraphs detailing Vilina feeling awkward around her, and her talking about her feelings for Gwen, but I don't think it's being emphasised at all in comparison to the way Vilina looks at random men. Aside from the fact that she blatantly checks out men more than woman, Vilina had so much awkward tension with Logan that it made me feel uncomfortable, with a lot of emphasis being placed with her feeling his muscles, smelling his scents and feeling his warmth.
We got that with Logan of all people. I'm just scratching my head wondering "Is Vilina really bi?" because the way it's being written, it doesn't feel like it. And it doesn't feel like she has a crush on Gwen, and it doesn't feel like we're getting any development for the relationship from this arc so far. So much so that I'm not even sure what to feel with Peter and Gwen kissing, because even Vilina doesn't know what to feel.
I probably have more issues that I haven't exactly pinned down yet, but that's what I'm feeling so far. Maybe I'll retract everything here, I don't know
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Codex I don't want to sound rude or offensive, but half of your complaint appears to me to be the result of you not getting your preferred ship. You want to see Vilina/Gwen, but you aren't getting it enough as you would like or how you want it.
As someone who doesn't ship them, I am okay with how things are going between them as each time, the playerbase has been divided and we get compromise votes of Vil have some feelings, but are unsure of them and holding off from acting on them. As someone, who doesn't want Vil and Gwen to get together, I feel that WightRaven is handling the matter rather well as he is respecting both sides of the player base and the winning votes by having some romance between Gwen and Vil, but not having outright romance and the two of them hooking up as the player base has yet to go down that route.
However, I do sympathise with the first half of your complaint. Vil does seem like she bounces off a lot of canon characters, but I feel that is because she is the only OC amongst a case of canon characters. I disagree that Vil is bland because the QM has done a good job of expanding her characterisation since the issue got brought up in the past, but I also feel that she does get over shadowed by canon characters.
I personally put this down to how canon characters are more developed due to the dint of being developed in other media while Vil has only been developed in this quest, where she is sharing the spotlight with other characters. While I would no longer call Vil bland and lacking in characterisation, she does lack development compared to some other characters, especially the fan favourites.
I would personally like to see how Vil fares when amongst other OCs where she isn't competing with fan favourite canon characters for reader attention.
All of the above said, I do feel that Vil is somewhat lacking in emotion, but I put that down to her being a more stoic character. She keeps a cool head under pressure and calls good shots even when things are going south. She is excitable and lively in social situation, but in a fight and in serious situations, she is reserved and focused.
Just my thoughts. As I said before, I don't intend to be rude so no offence is intended and apologies if there is any.
As someone who doesn't ship them, I am okay with how things are going between them as each time, the playerbase has been divided and we get compromise votes of Vil have some feelings, but are unsure of them and holding off from acting on them. As someone, who doesn't want Vil and Gwen to get together, I feel that WightRaven is handling the matter rather well as he is respecting both sides of the player base and the winning votes by having some romance between Gwen and Vil, but not having outright romance and the two of them hooking up as the player base has yet to go down that route.
However, I do sympathise with the first half of your complaint. Vil does seem like she bounces off a lot of canon characters, but I feel that is because she is the only OC amongst a case of canon characters. I disagree that Vil is bland because the QM has done a good job of expanding her characterisation since the issue got brought up in the past, but I also feel that she does get over shadowed by canon characters.
I personally put this down to how canon characters are more developed due to the dint of being developed in other media while Vil has only been developed in this quest, where she is sharing the spotlight with other characters. While I would no longer call Vil bland and lacking in characterisation, she does lack development compared to some other characters, especially the fan favourites.
I would personally like to see how Vil fares when amongst other OCs where she isn't competing with fan favourite canon characters for reader attention.
All of the above said, I do feel that Vil is somewhat lacking in emotion, but I put that down to her being a more stoic character. She keeps a cool head under pressure and calls good shots even when things are going south. She is excitable and lively in social situation, but in a fight and in serious situations, she is reserved and focused.
Just my thoughts. As I said before, I don't intend to be rude so no offence is intended and apologies if there is any.
- Location
- Everywhere, Anywhere, Nowhere.
[X] Gwen
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And the playerbase didn't vote to have a crush on Logan, but a bunch of updates were spent with descriptions of Vilina feeling his muscles shifting under his thin shirt, her chest pressing up against him and vivid descriptions of his warmth and smell, how she was blushing and felt embarrased and aware of what's going on. None of us voted for Vilina to feel that way, she still felt it.
But you know what we did vote for? We got an even split between us not having a crush and us having a crush with Gwen. So Wight decided to have Vilina have a crush on Gwen while also her not have a crush on Gwen? For some reason she never admires Gwen like she has Logan, and Gwen scenes started going down a lot. I don't want all of our interactions to be romantic, that's now what I want. I said that I feel like Gwen started disappearing and becoming less relvant, most scenes with her happening off screen and only vague descriptions of Vil's feelings for her. Whether you ship them or not doesn't matter, what I wanted to see was them interacting and developing their friendship, I wanted to see Vil having complex feelings and struggle with them. I wanted to see her worrying about Gwen's deteriorating emotional state. I personally felt like I got none of that.
Instead we get to feel up Logan's muscles and became a glorified lockpick.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I would hardly call that crush on Logan. If you think that consitutes a crush, I'm going to blame that on your standards rather than the QM's writing.
Really? I feel that the Gwen romantic scenes have increased since that vote.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hm...okay, @Codex, I think I can try & roughly pinpoint the disconnects that are at least partially responsible for the issues you're having with the quest. I'll lay them out point-by-point and you can tell me how accurate my analysis sounds?
So something all RPGs have to balance is "PC as character" and "PC as agent." On the one hand, the PC is in the story in the same way that NPCs are; on the other hand, they're also the tool by which the player(s) exert(s) their will upon the world. With quests, there's the particular complication that rather than belonging to a single person who can consistently guide their behavior in certain ways, quest protagonists are governed by a hivemind which can often prove mercurial and does not share a uniform vision for how to proceed. This means that the PC must either deny the questers' some degree of agency - by having a strong characterization which mandates or precludes certain courses of action - or have a somewhat even-tempered & level-headed personality to facilitate compliance with whatever option(s) the questers choose.
This quest seems to be favoring the latter option, and it sounds like you would prefer the former. Is that more or less accurate?
Here we run into a somewhat related issue - "quest as story" versus "quest as game." From a "quest as story" perspective, the narrative of "Vilina stands in the basement a bunch while things happen around her" is not the most compelling. From a "quest as game" perspective, coming up with & then executing efficient & effective plans is its own reward - thus even though Vilina is not personally doing much, the updates remain satisfying. Again, you seem to want the quest to lean more toward a narrative approach, whereas the current paradigm seems to lean more toward "quest as game." Again, does that sound about right?
This one feels like it's actually two points - (1) is dislike of/discomfort with the way the Logan interactions went, and (2) is disappointment with the lack of Gwen focus. To some extent I can see how the contrast between the two is relevant but frankly I'm getting a strong vibe that you'd prefer the Logan bits to have just not happened at all, regardless of Gwen's presence in the story. If I'm correct I feel like that part's mostly a personal issue and not the most relevant to consider here.
For point (2), I'll note that we just haven't had that many votes to deliberately interact with Gwen recently - the "does Vilina have a crush" decision point was just before the summer trip, during which Gwen was unavailable and after which we only spoke with her in the context of discussing or executing the mission we just finished. The morning workouts haven't even resumed, so far as I'm aware, and even if they have there's not exactly much need to cover them on-screen unless something out of the ordinary happens. For your first two complaints I feel there's discussion to be had about "what sort of quest should this be" and that sort of thing, but this one feels more just like a question of getting the voters to support more "spend time with Gwen" options.
Anyway, how does that all read to you? Am I completely off-base? Hit the nail(s) right on the head(s)? Somewhere in between (most likely this one)?
So something all RPGs have to balance is "PC as character" and "PC as agent." On the one hand, the PC is in the story in the same way that NPCs are; on the other hand, they're also the tool by which the player(s) exert(s) their will upon the world. With quests, there's the particular complication that rather than belonging to a single person who can consistently guide their behavior in certain ways, quest protagonists are governed by a hivemind which can often prove mercurial and does not share a uniform vision for how to proceed. This means that the PC must either deny the questers' some degree of agency - by having a strong characterization which mandates or precludes certain courses of action - or have a somewhat even-tempered & level-headed personality to facilitate compliance with whatever option(s) the questers choose.
This quest seems to be favoring the latter option, and it sounds like you would prefer the former. Is that more or less accurate?
Here we run into a somewhat related issue - "quest as story" versus "quest as game." From a "quest as story" perspective, the narrative of "Vilina stands in the basement a bunch while things happen around her" is not the most compelling. From a "quest as game" perspective, coming up with & then executing efficient & effective plans is its own reward - thus even though Vilina is not personally doing much, the updates remain satisfying. Again, you seem to want the quest to lean more toward a narrative approach, whereas the current paradigm seems to lean more toward "quest as game." Again, does that sound about right?
This one feels like it's actually two points - (1) is dislike of/discomfort with the way the Logan interactions went, and (2) is disappointment with the lack of Gwen focus. To some extent I can see how the contrast between the two is relevant but frankly I'm getting a strong vibe that you'd prefer the Logan bits to have just not happened at all, regardless of Gwen's presence in the story. If I'm correct I feel like that part's mostly a personal issue and not the most relevant to consider here.
For point (2), I'll note that we just haven't had that many votes to deliberately interact with Gwen recently - the "does Vilina have a crush" decision point was just before the summer trip, during which Gwen was unavailable and after which we only spoke with her in the context of discussing or executing the mission we just finished. The morning workouts haven't even resumed, so far as I'm aware, and even if they have there's not exactly much need to cover them on-screen unless something out of the ordinary happens. For your first two complaints I feel there's discussion to be had about "what sort of quest should this be" and that sort of thing, but this one feels more just like a question of getting the voters to support more "spend time with Gwen" options.
Anyway, how does that all read to you? Am I completely off-base? Hit the nail(s) right on the head(s)? Somewhere in between (most likely this one)?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh wow. Um, I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Let me be clear. I'm not asking people to support choosing more Gwen options. What I feel is that we had a lack of Gwen options/interactions, a lack of exploration of their dynamic, and a lackluster approach to the whole relationship in regards to this arc in itself, partly as a result of the first two points I pointed out, that Vilina is basically a PC in a Persona game.
Thank you for engaging with me in a respectful manner and pinpointing what I was dissatisfied with. The whole "quest as a game" vs "quest as a story" thing is an interesting argument to be had, but I think I've figured out that I definitely prefer "quest as a story".
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, cool. Then I think the most productive questions to ask here are: @Wightraven do you agree that my "PC as character"/"PC as agent" and "quest as narrative"/"quest as game" dichotomies (as outlined in the first two sections of this post) are useful ways of looking at things, and if so, do you intend to continue this quest's observed lean (from at least my perspective) toward the "agent" and "game" options to roughly the same extent as you have thus far?
'cause if so then @Codex this unfortunately may not be the quest for you (or at least you'll have to live with those factors being present), but OTOH if the Wightraven plans to try & change that aspect of things then you might get more enjoyment out of sticking around. Ultimately this largely comes down to a matter of taste, so if the QM's preference doesn't align with yours, there's not that much to be done.
- Location
- The Trash Pile
I've never played Persona and I haven't read much YA fiction outside of Harry Potter (did grab that book Roxy mentioned over the summer, though. I'm sure I'll get around to reading it eventually...) but I'll do my best to address things, here. I'm not gonna quote posts, just... talk about the overall points brought up, in no particular order. A lot of them sort of bleed in and out of each other, anyhow.
1. The Logan Thing
Vilina, as a person, isn't thirsty. From a distance of five feet or more, she's respectful and reserved. Touching somebody, however... that's something she's not used to. Her parents hugged her, sure, but that's it. Friends might shake hands or hug or accidentally bump into each other, but any significant contact beyond that sets her on fire. So things like dancing and riding a motorcycle become suddenly and violently more intimate and cause reactions in her she doesn't necessarily intend to have. I write these scenes in greater detail because Vilina feels them in greater detail. I don't recall exactly how far Vilina has gone with a lover off-hand. I know she mentioned it in a conversation with Kitty early on, but I don't have time to reference it at the moment. But in any case she's overall very inexperienced with matters of personal intimacy, and not exactly as in control of these emotions as she is others.
As far as her "checking out guys" more than she does girls... I direct you to Black Cat, who Vilina's opinion of could be easily summed up by "stupid, sexy Felicia". This isn't the first time this observation has cropped up in-thread, and every time it does it makes me laugh. Bi/pansexuality is not an absolute, nor is it static; some people lean one way or the other. Sometimes you have an 'I'm really into dudes' day, sometimes you have an 'I'm really into ladies' day. Sometimes you wanna experience someone who defies gender norms hard enough to make you unsure. This is just How It Is.
2. Vilina's Characterization
A lot of the "issues" have been addressed, and I thank @Oshha for his comments that I've been improving on Vilina's characterization, but I feel like maybe I can shed a bit more insight. Vilina's parents left their home countries because they didn't agree with what their societies expected from them. They are loving and supportive parents, but the details of their romance are a bit more foreign to Vilina than perhaps a parent's romance is to other people. The framework for a relationship she has comes largely from TV shows, movies, and comic books but she's had a solid enough upbringing and is observant enough to note that those are typically blown out of proportion. As I said above; she just doesn't know fully how to approach these things and has to trust her intuition (ie; you guys) a lot on how to proceed. Her parents are also very composed people; they had to suffer A LOT of social pressure back home, and they did so quietly. This is a trait passed on to Vilina, though she's not as good at it. She's awkward AF internally, but only very rarely does she allow other people to see it, and usually only on accident.
The reasons for this are twofold; firstly it helps convey things about Vilina's character and upbringing that are unlikely to get mentioned in the thread proper because small talk is both boring to write and boring to read. This is why jogging with Gwen gets glossed over even though it happens; I have nothing to say there that's worth writing. "How are you?" "Fine, how are you?" "Ugh, [INSERT MEDICAL SCIENCE I HAVE NO PERSONAL REFERENCE TO] is so HARD..." "Boo! You need to take a personal day. Self-care, girl." Blah.
Secondly...
3. Vilina as the Player Character
Player agency > narrative. Period. This is a game, not a fanfiction. If you wanted to see teens angst about their emotional state, I have an long-neglected TMNT fanfic over on AO3 that I'd be more encouraged to actually continue writing if it got some kudos/attention. Vilina is only going to take agency away from the players in the most EXTREME situations. Black Cat pissing her off and her emotional reaction to that is an example of the beginnings of such a situation. Now, that said, I'd like for things to have a certain amount of consistency. As I suggested a few posts ago, I kind of pull back on a lot of Vilina's reactions to wait and see how the voter base feels about certain things, and I sort of go with that flow. At some points it means she has to have less of a reaction than a lot of people and characters would, but at others it means things harmonize so well nobody even notices because everything is aligned. For example, Vilina didn't actively consider bailing on this entire stupid plan of Gwen's because the voter base had decided she had a solid investment in the character with a sizeable romantic bent. Nor did the voter base ever vote toward "fuck this noise, this plan is stupid and so is Black Cat. Peace, bitches!" because they want to help Gwen, or at least be nearby to help when things go seriously wrong. This was not an accident of writing; if you weren't romantically interested in Gwen at all, ie more willing to call her on her shit, then Vilina likely would've done just that as part of the rising tension of the rooftop argument.
4. Gwen's Bad Plan
It was a bad, stupid plan. That was intentional. I don't want to repeat myself so I'm not gonna bother getting into details here, but yeah. This was a stupid idea that Gwen felt very strongly about, so trying to work through it and carry it out felt stupid. Because it was. We're showcasing the results of an unchecked collapse into minor obsession.
5. Vilina Does Boring Shit
Y'all could've summoned toads or shot lasers or something. This was a decision made at character creation that we have all tried to do our best with since. We voted on a medic with luck powers who wasn't very physically capable and have leaned harder into 'super genius' than we have anything else. *shrugs* That's fine. I'm doing my best with what I've got, trying to use Quentin as a means of conveying information so you at least know what was going on, or having Other Gwen recap cool fights. But if y'all are looking for big action setpieces with Vilina at the center... you created the wrong character for that.
6. My Updates Are Too Small
I can't really do anything about this. As a writer I don't wax over the unimportant. I write pulp. I gloss over most unnecessary details, and even moreso for this hobby of mine that makes me no money and I do purely for shared enjoyment. I am not J.R.R. Tolkien; you will not get paragraphs intimately detailing a cup. I already said I find small talk boring to write, and based on a lot of the feedback I've gotten, most people find it boring to read. Thus, updates are going to be quick and to the point. I will stop the update whenever there's a decision point that has a potentially interesting outcome. They still take me around an hour to type up, at least. This post in and of itself has been my entire morning before work. I should have left 7 minutes ago, honestly. To that point, I have interests beyond the thread; I have a job, a girlfriend, video games to play, stuff to watch, art to make, other stories and games to write, and social media to browse with a glazed-over look on my face. I know my updates are short compared to other writers, so I try very hard to stick to one update a day to make up for it. I tried updating more than once a day; it was too time consuming on anything but my days off. I'm sorry that isn't sufficient.
That should address everything, I think? I need to get to work. Any other questions, let me know. As always, thank you for the discussion and feedback.
1. The Logan Thing
Vilina, as a person, isn't thirsty. From a distance of five feet or more, she's respectful and reserved. Touching somebody, however... that's something she's not used to. Her parents hugged her, sure, but that's it. Friends might shake hands or hug or accidentally bump into each other, but any significant contact beyond that sets her on fire. So things like dancing and riding a motorcycle become suddenly and violently more intimate and cause reactions in her she doesn't necessarily intend to have. I write these scenes in greater detail because Vilina feels them in greater detail. I don't recall exactly how far Vilina has gone with a lover off-hand. I know she mentioned it in a conversation with Kitty early on, but I don't have time to reference it at the moment. But in any case she's overall very inexperienced with matters of personal intimacy, and not exactly as in control of these emotions as she is others.
As far as her "checking out guys" more than she does girls... I direct you to Black Cat, who Vilina's opinion of could be easily summed up by "stupid, sexy Felicia". This isn't the first time this observation has cropped up in-thread, and every time it does it makes me laugh. Bi/pansexuality is not an absolute, nor is it static; some people lean one way or the other. Sometimes you have an 'I'm really into dudes' day, sometimes you have an 'I'm really into ladies' day. Sometimes you wanna experience someone who defies gender norms hard enough to make you unsure. This is just How It Is.
2. Vilina's Characterization
A lot of the "issues" have been addressed, and I thank @Oshha for his comments that I've been improving on Vilina's characterization, but I feel like maybe I can shed a bit more insight. Vilina's parents left their home countries because they didn't agree with what their societies expected from them. They are loving and supportive parents, but the details of their romance are a bit more foreign to Vilina than perhaps a parent's romance is to other people. The framework for a relationship she has comes largely from TV shows, movies, and comic books but she's had a solid enough upbringing and is observant enough to note that those are typically blown out of proportion. As I said above; she just doesn't know fully how to approach these things and has to trust her intuition (ie; you guys) a lot on how to proceed. Her parents are also very composed people; they had to suffer A LOT of social pressure back home, and they did so quietly. This is a trait passed on to Vilina, though she's not as good at it. She's awkward AF internally, but only very rarely does she allow other people to see it, and usually only on accident.
The reasons for this are twofold; firstly it helps convey things about Vilina's character and upbringing that are unlikely to get mentioned in the thread proper because small talk is both boring to write and boring to read. This is why jogging with Gwen gets glossed over even though it happens; I have nothing to say there that's worth writing. "How are you?" "Fine, how are you?" "Ugh, [INSERT MEDICAL SCIENCE I HAVE NO PERSONAL REFERENCE TO] is so HARD..." "Boo! You need to take a personal day. Self-care, girl." Blah.
Secondly...
3. Vilina as the Player Character
Player agency > narrative. Period. This is a game, not a fanfiction. If you wanted to see teens angst about their emotional state, I have an long-neglected TMNT fanfic over on AO3 that I'd be more encouraged to actually continue writing if it got some kudos/attention. Vilina is only going to take agency away from the players in the most EXTREME situations. Black Cat pissing her off and her emotional reaction to that is an example of the beginnings of such a situation. Now, that said, I'd like for things to have a certain amount of consistency. As I suggested a few posts ago, I kind of pull back on a lot of Vilina's reactions to wait and see how the voter base feels about certain things, and I sort of go with that flow. At some points it means she has to have less of a reaction than a lot of people and characters would, but at others it means things harmonize so well nobody even notices because everything is aligned. For example, Vilina didn't actively consider bailing on this entire stupid plan of Gwen's because the voter base had decided she had a solid investment in the character with a sizeable romantic bent. Nor did the voter base ever vote toward "fuck this noise, this plan is stupid and so is Black Cat. Peace, bitches!" because they want to help Gwen, or at least be nearby to help when things go seriously wrong. This was not an accident of writing; if you weren't romantically interested in Gwen at all, ie more willing to call her on her shit, then Vilina likely would've done just that as part of the rising tension of the rooftop argument.
4. Gwen's Bad Plan
It was a bad, stupid plan. That was intentional. I don't want to repeat myself so I'm not gonna bother getting into details here, but yeah. This was a stupid idea that Gwen felt very strongly about, so trying to work through it and carry it out felt stupid. Because it was. We're showcasing the results of an unchecked collapse into minor obsession.
5. Vilina Does Boring Shit
Y'all could've summoned toads or shot lasers or something. This was a decision made at character creation that we have all tried to do our best with since. We voted on a medic with luck powers who wasn't very physically capable and have leaned harder into 'super genius' than we have anything else. *shrugs* That's fine. I'm doing my best with what I've got, trying to use Quentin as a means of conveying information so you at least know what was going on, or having Other Gwen recap cool fights. But if y'all are looking for big action setpieces with Vilina at the center... you created the wrong character for that.
6. My Updates Are Too Small
I can't really do anything about this. As a writer I don't wax over the unimportant. I write pulp. I gloss over most unnecessary details, and even moreso for this hobby of mine that makes me no money and I do purely for shared enjoyment. I am not J.R.R. Tolkien; you will not get paragraphs intimately detailing a cup. I already said I find small talk boring to write, and based on a lot of the feedback I've gotten, most people find it boring to read. Thus, updates are going to be quick and to the point. I will stop the update whenever there's a decision point that has a potentially interesting outcome. They still take me around an hour to type up, at least. This post in and of itself has been my entire morning before work. I should have left 7 minutes ago, honestly. To that point, I have interests beyond the thread; I have a job, a girlfriend, video games to play, stuff to watch, art to make, other stories and games to write, and social media to browse with a glazed-over look on my face. I know my updates are short compared to other writers, so I try very hard to stick to one update a day to make up for it. I tried updating more than once a day; it was too time consuming on anything but my days off. I'm sorry that isn't sufficient.
That should address everything, I think? I need to get to work. Any other questions, let me know. As always, thank you for the discussion and feedback.
[X] Gwen
No comment on the current saltstorm.
No comment on the current saltstorm.
- Location
- Winter Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Gwen
- Location
- The internet
[X] Gwen
@Codex, sorry to hear you didn't have a great time with this issue, I do really hope you stick around, but from reading the discussion and Wight's response, I don't know that this quest will have the sort of narrative focus you seem to be looking for.
Nah, this doesn't even begin to qualify for that term. Even if the discussion is more contentious (or to be honest, existent) than usual it's been pretty civil in here, and everyone has tried to keep it respectful for the most part. Thanks for the response @Wightraven and thanks for your insightful replis @Oshha and @Wiadi
@Codex, sorry to hear you didn't have a great time with this issue, I do really hope you stick around, but from reading the discussion and Wight's response, I don't know that this quest will have the sort of narrative focus you seem to be looking for.
- Location
- The Trash Pile
This. @Wiadi in particular made a few posts that basically said what I was gonna say. I ain't even mad about 90% of it. Those are fair critiques of the work, but the work isn't going to change to accommodate those critiques. While I love having active players around, I can't please everyone. It's the same reason I haven't found a quest to follow on here; nothing has quite been to my tastes yet. And that's OK. Clearly they work for other people. Good for them. If the way I run the show isn't to your liking, then you will be missed. But if you wanna stick around, I'm glad you're here to take the ride. <3
[X] Spider-man
I think we want to keep an eye on him and the symbiote.
Peter has a habit of playing down anything that happens to himself and he certainly has few friends outside of the punching bad guys business. The symbiote is learning human social cues from a person with no work-life balance!
I think we want to keep an eye on him and the symbiote.
Peter has a habit of playing down anything that happens to himself and he certainly has few friends outside of the punching bad guys business. The symbiote is learning human social cues from a person with no work-life balance!
- Location
- Australia
[X] Gwen
I'd like to actually point out " hey by the way you nearly got 4 people who trusted you hurt or killed with a bad, rushed plan, just because you were right doesn't mean you didn't go about it in a terrible manner"
This is the type of situation where someone needs to walk her through all her other options available at the time how they could have worked better and how terrible this could have come out from a multitude of factors.
Seriously she will probably get a grilling from the oversight people on this but it never hurts to hear it from someone sympathetic first.
Imagine if she had actually plotted out a plan for this clued everyone in a week in advance and organised fall back plans and reached out through her friends like Vilina if they knew anyone trustworthy and with powers that would help like hey Quentin or hell Shadowcat.
I don't understand the need for secrecy she had here really it sounds like she went down the rabbit hole so far she lost sight of reality.
I'd like to actually point out " hey by the way you nearly got 4 people who trusted you hurt or killed with a bad, rushed plan, just because you were right doesn't mean you didn't go about it in a terrible manner"
This is the type of situation where someone needs to walk her through all her other options available at the time how they could have worked better and how terrible this could have come out from a multitude of factors.
Seriously she will probably get a grilling from the oversight people on this but it never hurts to hear it from someone sympathetic first.
Imagine if she had actually plotted out a plan for this clued everyone in a week in advance and organised fall back plans and reached out through her friends like Vilina if they knew anyone trustworthy and with powers that would help like hey Quentin or hell Shadowcat.
I don't understand the need for secrecy she had here really it sounds like she went down the rabbit hole so far she lost sight of reality.
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- Location
- The internet
I mean you aren't wrong, but to be honest she's unlikely to take that well, and its unlikely to do much good anyway. If we'd pointed it out ahead of time it maybe would have had some impact to reiterate it now, but we didn't point it out ahead of time and now that she was successful and feels vindicated not only will we be the 'downer' who's trying to ruin her 'I did it I was right' high, it'll also be pretty easy to shake off any criticism with a 'hindsight is 20/20' sort of response.
Not to mention, as much as I personally would enjoy laying out some truth here, I don't think the majority would back the idea.
Edit: Well actually that is sort of unfair to say, Vilina did make some protests about the plan beforehand. I'm still skeptical that it'll work out to go over it now though.
Not to mention, as much as I personally would enjoy laying out some truth here, I don't think the majority would back the idea.
Edit: Well actually that is sort of unfair to say, Vilina did make some protests about the plan beforehand. I'm still skeptical that it'll work out to go over it now though.
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