The Westerosi II: Subprime Directives (ASoIaF / Star Trek-ish)

Do you mean that as in "image of a person that is still able to interact with the world", or as "image of a servant bound to someones (somethings) duty"?
Yes.
(also, spoilers!)

Is that a hint of a Battlestar Galactica aspect to this setting I spy there?
Just a bit, yeah. :) Deep lore bit, maybe setting up an Adventure down the line if I decide I'm not done with Jade once the Westerosi saga is over.

(Dunno which appeals more at this point, Jade Meets The Cylons or Jade Discovers Mid-Child.)
 
Yes.
(also, spoilers!)


Just a bit, yeah. :) Deep lore bit, maybe setting up an Adventure down the line if I decide I'm not done with Jade once the Westerosi saga is over.

(Dunno which appeals more at this point, Jade Meets The Cylons or Jade Discovers Mid-Child.)
What do you mean by "Adventure" btw? I saw that and read "Quest" butttt, if that was the case then I assume you would just have said Quest.

Is it just more amazing story?

Oh. Quest. Jim Starluck. Quest. *Pokes*
 
Oh. Quest. Jim Starluck. Quest. *Pokes*
Yes, I know, I know. >.<

I have 1,800 words of the next update written, but I still have trouble writing at any reliable pace. Hopefully once I've got my sleep apnea under control and am no longer stumbling around like a zombie most of the time it'll pick up.

I still have lots of ideas for it; it's just a matter of mustering the drive to put words on the page.
 
Huh just stumbled over a thing what is this why look it's a map of some kind how 'bout that:

xoxo,
The Fun Tyrant.

PS: :)
I call bull on the timeline.

If "permanent colonization" is to be read as "first permanent colonists set foot on Mars", then that would mean that either they came with everything they needed to stay (somewhat unlikely)... Or their caches would be on site or underway when Watney had to loot Ares IV's cache to get off world.
If the colonization cache was underway, it could've been diverted for the Watney Rescue Mission.
2039 for touchdown of the first cache for the permanent colony, that I can believe... Or first colonists there to stay was on the US-Chinese Ares IV? Which launched during the epilogue which was set... What? One year after the rescue, and add travel time. 2039 is possible, but it feels to early, unless you alter the events of the Martian.

(That said, what with Watney as an accidental proof of concept, having at least some of the crew of Ares IV going up to stay is not implausible.)
 
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Yes, I know, I know. >.<

I have 1,800 words of the next update written, but I still have trouble writing at any reliable pace. Hopefully once I've got my sleep apnea under control and am no longer stumbling around like a zombie most of the time it'll pick up.

I still have lots of ideas for it; it's just a matter of mustering the drive to put words on the page.

Didn't mean to be naggy so much as politely querying. Though I'm glad it's not dead :)

Just please make a point of sticking those ideas on a page somewhere so you don't loose them while you get the next chapter done ;).
 
Or their caches would be on site or underway when Watney had to loot Ares IV's cache to get off world.
If the colonization cache was underway, it could've been diverted for the Watney Rescue Mission.
He proved without a doubt that life on Mars is possible if precautions are taken. It wouldn't be really that strange for a joint global effort to launch a number of SeaDragon like rockets with all the needed gear.
There is an ongoing project to design a machine that can collect and process different martian soil types into useful materials. It appears that a lot of minerals are literally laying around as small rocks and sands, like Olivine, Magnesite, Pyroxene or just plain iron rust. And all of it is soaked in water that can be extracted.
At this point is more of an issue how to power it quickly in a safe manner than process it into elements.
 
He proved without a doubt that life on Mars is possible if precautions are taken. It wouldn't be really that strange for a joint global effort to launch a number of SeaDragon like rockets with all the needed gear.
There is an ongoing project to design a machine that can collect and process different martian soil types into useful materials. It appears that a lot of minerals are literally laying around as small rocks and sands, like Olivine, Magnesite, Pyroxene or just plain iron rust. And all of it is soaked in water that can be extracted.
At this point is more of an issue how to power it quickly in a safe manner than process it into elements.
The thing is turnaround time.
Ares III was an incident in part because when they discovered Watney survived, the one cycler they had was on the way back and plan was to overhaul it and launch it for Ares IV to be back on Mars ca 2-3 years later. And they had no launch vehicles available that could get to Mars faster - one was made and failed, and it was only the Chinese offering one of theirs that let them recover Watney (and even then, it was either send a resupply to Mars, refurbish the Hermes cycler and launch Ares IV with an additional mission, or use the launch reload the Hermes on the fly and do a Hail Mary run to recover Watney faster).
The Hail Mary worked (not without issue, but it worked). So that throws off the time table for Ares IV - the Hermes still needs refurbishing (and repairs) before it can launch again, and now the window for the planned launch is missed which means waiting for the next launch window after estimated completion of repairs.

So if the conclusion of the Ares III incident is the triumphant return to Earth (... 2035-37... okay probably). That means the Hermes was back in action and dropping people off two years later, and supply caches dropped in the meantime, and given we see the Ares IV launch in the epilogue - well, it could be there in time, I guess... But that'd mean either NASA planned for and signed off on the first colonists (... which seems unlikely), they went rogue (perhaps even more unlikely), or the Chinese pulled a fast one (... which, Okay, I can buy that) and they weren't planning on a joint return trip.

Checking the reference (the book), the Ares III incident is from Sol 6 to 549, or mission day ~130 to 687 (which amounts to about 1 year 10 months and a couple of weeks). Plus 211 days return trip to Earth. So the dates given only make sense if you're only counting the time Watney spent on Mars, which (assuming the incident starts on the dawn of the new year 2035, which seems unlikely) puts the Hermes back at Earth in June 2037 (and if you don't think Ares III touched down on Mars just after Christmas 2034 you need to push that date forward) and the launch of Ares IV sometime in mid 2039. Given Ares III got from Earth to mars in 124 days, Ares IV could probably do the same given a good launch window, but that means that - assuming Ares III aborted Jan 1 2035 and returned home in June 2037... And assuming Ares IV touches down same date as Ares III but a couple of years later - latest launch date by the end of august 2039 (mind I am to lazy to actually check when there's a good launch window in 2039, but I am also to lazy to check when the launch windows for 2034-35 are).
Okay, I guess that's enough time to refurbish and get back with the Hermes.

So I guess objection withdrawn, seemed a bit short to me but rechecking the source shows it's not outsize the realm of possibility.
 
I call bull on the timeline.

If "permanent colonization" is to be read as "first permanent colonists set foot on Mars", then that would mean that either they came with everything they needed to stay (somewhat unlikely)... Or their caches would be on site or underway when Watney had to loot Ares IV's cache to get off world.
The punchline is Elon Musk. ;) Elon's grand dream to build a new world he would rule over as god for Martian colonization didn't have anything to do with the Ares program; it was all a separate project using in-house hardware and with in-house people using it not NASA astronauts. So when the Bond villain suddenly drops a mostly-complete colony on Mars everybody else goes "waaaaaaait a minute" and starts scrambling to set up their own colony architecture, or starts buying it from the Bond villain.

FWIW the dates for the Ares III Incident are sourced from the author himself.
 
FWIW the dates for the Ares III Incident are sourced from the author himself.
I assumed that, and that Weir did his math better than me. And checking them with myself I have to admit 2035-2037 matches what is written (I think I somehow forgot that 2036 is a whole year as a thing when I first did the mental math without a reference, so 2035-2037 could be read as upwards to three years, rather than just 2).

And I was guessing Musk may have had something to do with it, but given his attitude, I think if there was any possibility of the BFR or Starship aiding the Watney rescue he would have been making claims his feats can't back... So yeah, I'd wanna put the Musk Mars Mission just a bit farther up the timeline (2040?).

But I feel there's a certain poetry in the idea of Ares IV being underway (or, maybe just before) when the Chinese announce that "oh by the way" their people aren't going to be joining the crew on the return trip, the Chinese supply vehicles have the gear to make the mission site a permanent colony and more supply missions are lined up - the American crew are of course free to join them.

EDIT: Going by the dates listed by Weir, that puts the triumphant return of Watney to Earth just before Christmas of 2037.
 
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Wait... How did I miss all this time that the Warlocks of Qarth had weird evil palatte swapped versions of Weir woods???
 
I imagine that Musk wasn't involved in rescuing Watney either because of bad timing, or he did what he usually did and started building something completely useless while badmouthing anyone that tried to point this out to him.

Hopefully Musk Colony didn't become a Donner Party.
 
And I was guessing Musk may have had something to do with it, but given his attitude, I think if there was any possibility of the BFR or Starship aiding the Watney rescue he would have been making claims his feats can't back... So yeah, I'd wanna put the Musk Mars Mission just a bit farther up the timeline (2040?).
For comedy/Maximum Irony purposes I'm just going to put the Iris 1 cargo mission on an uprated Falcon Heavy or whatever interim heavy SpaceX builds while they iron out the kinks in the BFR. That way ol' Elon gets both his egoboo and his comeuppance in one swoop. ;)

Wait... How did I miss all this time that the Warlocks of Qarth had weird evil palatte swapped versions of Weir woods???
It's really subtle and George doesn't draw attention to it, but if you go back to the House of the Undying chapter in ACOK it's right there if you know what to look for.

Hopefully Musk Colony didn't become a Donner Party.
Nah. SpaceX operations tend to be pretty well put together. Probably because AFAICT Elon's just the face and not actually running shit.

(Also, FWIW, I'm not against busting on Musky as a general rule, but if you must please keep it roughly on-topic with the story and worldbuilding. We have many fine threads for Elonchat elsewhere on the forum for more generalized discussion. Thank you.)
 
Nah. SpaceX operations tend to be pretty well put together. Probably because AFAICT Elon's just the face and not actually running shit.

Good good. If nothing else, by 2040 I really doubt he'd have much to do with it directly anyway.

More seriously, I imagine Watneys notes would lead to a lot of last minute frantic restructuring madness.
 
Huh just stumbled over a thing what is this why look it's a map of some kind how 'bout that:

xoxo,
The Fun Tyrant.

PS: :)
'Prodromologists?' I'm having trouble finding a definition for this, or for 'prodromology.' The closest I can find is 'dromology,' which is the science of speed (or a philosophical concept related to speed in warfare and communication). This seems odd, and I'd like to see it expanded on.

EDIT: Going by the dates listed by Weir, that puts the triumphant return of Watney to Earth just before Christmas of 2037.
That's a pretty nice gift.
 
'Prodromologists?' I'm having trouble finding a definition for this, or for 'prodromology.' The closest I can find is 'dromology,' which is the science of speed (or a philosophical concept related to speed in warfare and communication). This seems odd, and I'd like to see it expanded on.
This is a term invented by a friend of mine[1] for his completely-original space opera setting. I don't remember how the word breaks down properly, but the field of prodromology is an evolution of archaeology. Where archaeology tends to focus on the study of ancient civilizations less advanced than our own, prodromoogy is the study of ancient civilizations as advanced or more advanced than our own. Digging up the remains of Absurdly Advanced Precursor Races and the like. As mentioned way the hell back in one of the early chapters of The Westerosi, one of Jade's aunts is a prodromologist (though not using that word in-story) specializing in Builder studies.


[1] The same one who coined the word "nerxie," in fact. :D
 
This is a term invented by a friend of mine[1] for his completely-original space opera setting. I don't remember how the word breaks down properly, but the field of prodromology is an evolution of archaeology. Where archaeology tends to focus on the study of ancient civilizations less advanced than our own, prodromoogy is the study of ancient civilizations as advanced or more advanced than our own. Digging up the remains of Absurdly Advanced Precursor Races and the like. As mentioned way the hell back in one of the early chapters of The Westerosi, one of Jade's aunts is a prodromologist (though not using that word in-story) specializing in Builder studies.


[1] The same one who coined the word "nerxie," in fact. :D
OK, interesting. Thank you.
 
I call bull on the timeline.

If "permanent colonization" is to be read as "first permanent colonists set foot on Mars", then that would mean that either they came with everything they needed to stay (somewhat unlikely)... Or their caches would be on site or underway when Watney had to loot Ares IV's cache to get off world.

We've had the ability to put a colony on Mars with everything needed to stay and prosper since the early 1970s. But we also have treaties saying that we're not allowed to. The people with the power to do something about those treaties have never had any interest in doing so.

If we did modify or outright abandon those treaties, we could have entire orbital cities and planetary colonies across the Solar system in a decade.
 
We've had the ability to put a colony on Mars with everything needed to stay and prosper since the early 1970s. But we also have treaties saying that we're not allowed to. The people with the power to do something about those treaties have never had any interest in doing so.

If we did modify or outright abandon those treaties, we could have entire orbital cities and planetary colonies across the Solar system in a decade.
I note your last sentence still says 'could'.

It's neither capability or legality, it's motivation.
 
We've had the ability to put a colony on Mars with everything needed to stay and prosper since the early 1970s. But we also have treaties saying that we're not allowed to. The people with the power to do something about those treaties have never had any interest in doing so.

If we did modify or outright abandon those treaties, we could have entire orbital cities and planetary colonies across the Solar system in a decade.
That's... kind of a huge stretch tbh. Even assuming the necessary lift capacity is there (which is isn't, not now and maybe not in a decade) most of the technology necessary for interplanetary colonization is either still on paper or has at most been done on a very small scale. Could you work with that? Maybe, but you're looking at a potential casualty rate higher than European incursions into the tropics... and those killed a lot of people.
 
That's... kind of a huge stretch tbh. Even assuming the necessary lift capacity is there (which is isn't, not now and maybe not in a decade) most of the technology necessary for interplanetary colonization is either still on paper or has at most been done on a very small scale. Could you work with that? Maybe, but you're looking at a potential casualty rate higher than European incursions into the tropics... and those killed a lot of people.

Oh, you haven't heard? I've founded a lovely Mars colony already, in the Poyais region, and I'm selling tickets to head over there right now!
 
Apologies; you sounded like we would have colonised the system already if it weren't for those darn treaties.

Political will limits us in all kinds of ways — we still use fossil fuels, we have people starving in some regions, we don't live on Mars — all of that is more due to a lack of will than a lack of capability.

That's... kind of a huge stretch tbh. Even assuming the necessary lift capacity is there (which is isn't, not now and maybe not in a decade) most of the technology necessary for interplanetary colonization is either still on paper or has at most been done on a very small scale. Could you work with that? Maybe, but you're looking at a potential casualty rate higher than European incursions into the tropics... and those killed a lot of people.

Project Orion is 1950s technology. Project NERVA is 1960s. A 1970s computer would have no problems with auto-piloting either. Orion drives scale really well providing you're not trying to lift living creatures — there's no reason it couldn't be used for stadium-sized SSTO launches. For the crew, there's NERVA, which had their thrusters emitting less than the background radiation count of a sunny day before the project was canceled by treaty.

Space travel is expensive and slow because treaties limit us to chemical rockets for our heavy lifting. With NERVA alone, we'd have been able to make the movie 2001 a reality, and on-schedule too.
 
... Where do I begin? (Jade: At the beginning?)

Okay.

So.

Project Orion is 1950s technology. Project NERVA is 1960s. A 1970s computer would have no problems with auto-piloting either. Orion drives scale really well providing you're not trying to lift living creatures — there's no reason it couldn't be used for stadium-sized SSTO launches. For the crew, there's NERVA, which had their thrusters emitting less than the background radiation count of a sunny day before the project was canceled by treaty.

Space travel is expensive and slow because treaties limit us to chemical rockets for our heavy lifting. With NERVA alone, we'd have been able to make the movie 2001 a reality, and on-schedule too.
1) Project Orion is a very 1950s "plowshare" project. By which I mean "a whole bunch of mad scientists developed the ultimate civilization-killing weapon and, upon realizing that, went a little nuts trying to prove to themselves that they weren't the bad guys and desperately reached for an application for their weapon that wouldn't be massively destructive and, in the end, failed." To blithely say there's no reason you couldn't use a nuclear pulse engine to lift stadium-sized payloads is to gloss over the fact that you are using a succession of very large nuclear bombs to move that payload--the bigger the payload, the bigger the bomb and more of 'em--from the ground all the way to orbit. That right there is a very, very big reason not to if you care even the slightest bit about what you're launching from.

2) NERVA didn't die because of a treaty. Like, at all. Nuclear thermal rockets aren't in any of the test ban treaties, they aren't in any of the strategic arms ban treaties, they aren't in the Outer Space Treaty. Project NERVA didn't end because the perfidious liberals and Otherplacians tricked America out of its glorious destiny; it ended because nuclear thermal was the central part of NASA's post-Apollo Mars plans, and after it was clear the US was going to win the moon race nobody wanted to pay for a super-expensive victory lap.

3) Nuclear thermal rockets (which has an acronym, but I refuse to use it because fuck weeaboos) are still being researched by NASA -- not a lot of money, not a lot of progress at the moment but nuclear thermal is part of the Design Reference Architecture which has driven most of NASA's plans for, like, the last decade.

4) It's also important to note that nobody, not even Elon Musk at his silliest, is proposing we use nuclear thermal engines inside Earth's atmosphere for the very same reasons that Project Orion was relegated to the land of "well it sounded good at first but..."
 
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This reply is going to be a bit nitpicky, sorry:

1) Project Orion is a very 1950s "plowshare" project. By which I mean "a whole bunch of mad scientists developed the ultimate civilization-killing weapon and, upon realizing that, went a little nuts trying to prove to themselves that they weren't the bad guys and desperately reached for an application for their weapon that wouldn't be massively destructive and, in the end, failed." To blithely say there's no reason you couldn't use a nuclear pulse engine to lift stadium-sized payloads is to gloss over the fact that you are using a succession of very large nuclear bombs to move that payload--the bigger the payload, the bigger the bomb and more of 'em--from the ground all the way to orbit. That right there is a very, very big reason not to if you care even the slightest bit about what you're launching from.
The bolded bits I take some issue with, depending on how you're defining your terms (the rest is reasonably true, AFAICT - in large part, money is a significant issue with any form of space travel, and that's why we didn't do as much with space as we technologically could have).

Any form of explosion-based launch vehicle is going to be pretty hard on whatever it's launched from, the bigger, the more destructive (so the latter is kind of I-don't-know-the-word, I want to say 'redundant,' but that isn't quite right), but if you're far enough from anything important and aren't using intentionally 'dirty' nuclear devices, the fallout, so to speak, isn't going that big of a problem. It would still be massively expensive, fairly dangerous, and not the greatest idea in most cases, but if you really need to move a big mass very fast, it's quite useful, so is not a failure in what the scientists were actually trying to do (find an application other than using it to kill lots and lots of people, which is a rather specific but important subset of 'massively destructive'). We've just never needed to, and aren't too likely to in the probable future (unless the world is going to be destroyed and we need to get as much off Earth as we can, fast).

No, the nuclear engine that should never be used even in circumstances where Project Orion would be reasonable is the nuclear salt-water rocket, because it's insane even compared to Old Boom-Boom (as in, you've seen my opinion of Project Orion above, and I think NSWR propulsion is insane and suicidal).
 
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