The Sparta Myth and the Far Right

The come and take them in reference to gun control is not fascism or alt right, it's merely a defense of one of the most important rights in the constitution.

Directed at the government, that's clearly a anti-political process threat even if it wasn't associated with militias. Which it is; I don't think I've ever seen it in context besides right wing gun nuts and militias.

"If the system goes against us by [passing gun control laws], we will kill people" is a terrorist threat. Not very funny or witty whatever you find and replace the cause with.
 
Last edited:
Directed at the government, that's clearly a anti-political process threat even if it wasn't associated with militias. Which it is; I don't think I've ever seen it in context besides right wing gun nuts and militias.

"If the system goes against us by [passing gun control laws], we will kill people" is a terrorist threat. Not very funny or witty whatever you find and replace the cause with.

Can't be terrorists in this day and age, they're white.
 
The problem with this is that it's always about ensuring that white people have access to firearms. Whenever blacks start arming themselves in large number, such as in the 1960's and 70's, suddenly gun control looks a lot better to the same people who like shouting Molon Labe and accusing Obama of being a kenyan muslim.
So why are you bitching about this? Earlier you were pro gun control and if what you said applies to the modern day then a bunch of leftwing blacks could just use their legal rights to buy weapons and publicly march, then you'd get what you wanted because the racists would betray the non racists and jump ship to the anti gun side. If you are anti gun control and you should want blacks to arm themselves so they can defend themselves from racist skinheads.

Work for us, fight in our wars, die for us. And oh yeah we can't have any helot veterans running around knowing which end of the spear is which so we're just going to extralegally terrorize you until our paranoia is satisfied. Only the slaveowners of Lacedaemon are allowed to defend their rights to arms and to join the brotherhood of warriors, helots are just tools and have no such rights.
That just proves my point though. Only freemen are able to/were allowed to have weapons, because they are a threat to the government's enforcers and the government does not want to have to worry about that. Populations that were armed generally do not get oppressed like the Helots did in Sparta where they were slaves. Oppressors make their victims weak. Weapons make you stronger. So yeah everyone should be wary of those who want to take away a people's weapons.

Directed at the government, that's clearly a anti-political process threat even if it wasn't associated with militias. Which it is; I don't think I've ever seen it in context besides right wing gun nuts and militias.

"If the system goes against us by [passing gun control laws], we will kill people" is a terrorist threat. Not very funny or witty whatever you find and replace the cause with.
So? Yes killing police officers or politicians because of a certain law is terrorism. But terrorism is just what the big army calls the little army, terrorism is not inherently bad terrorism is using violence for a political cause, in a guerrilla warfare style way. So the Nazis invading nations with armies, tanks, and planes isn't terrorism because it's overt and not subvert guerrilla style. But when those Helot rebels ambushed a Spartan army, that's terrorism the early parts of the American Revolution with the sons of liberty capturing tax collectors and tarring and feathering them, terrorism, partisans killing Nazi soldiers, terrorism. Terrorism is killing for political reasons when you are the weaker party, if you are a strong party it's just regular war, or a police action. But terrorism is more a tactic than anything, it's just that in the modern day it's been used by mostly regressive radical religious, and racial supremacists. So just saying something is terrorism in regards to gun rights defenders is just an ad hominim and bad one at that, where you are trying to shut down the discussion. After all most people here would say someone was a hero if they were a member of the French resistance in ww2 and they stabbed or shot a drunken german soldier who did not have his weapon and was walking down an alleyway. But that is terrorism.
 
So why are you bitching about this? Earlier you were pro gun control and if what you said applies to the modern day then a bunch of leftwing blacks could just use their legal rights to buy weapons and publicly march, then you'd get what you wanted because the racists would betray the non racists and jump ship to the anti gun side. If you are anti gun control and you should want blacks to arm themselves so they can defend themselves from racist skinheads.
His point is that the screeching over "MUH GUNS" does not extend to minorities. In fact, when the Black Panthers decided to arm themselves, then-Governor Ronald Reagan swiftly signed in gun control laws. Remember, when he ran for president in 1980, he was thought to be the pro-gun candidate.

So, with that context, it's kinda obvious that the 2nd Amendment Movement isn't truly "firearms should be accessible to everyone," it's "firearms should be accessible to everyone except those uppity blacks and other unruly minorities."
 
His point is that the screeching over "MUH GUNS" does not extend to minorities. In fact, when the Black Panthers decided to arm themselves, then-Governor Ronald Reagan swiftly signed in gun control laws. Remember, when he ran for president in 1980, he was thought to be the pro-gun candidate.

So, with that context, it's kinda obvious that the 2nd Amendment Movement isn't truly "firearms should be accessible to everyone," it's "firearms should be accessible to everyone except those uppity blacks and other unruly minorities."
LOL at Reagon being a pro gun canidate. Republicans like him, but that's mostly because he did good in regards to the Soviets, he was not perfect by ANY means he has big problems by deviating from the 2nd amendment. Also the black Panthers were in the right, and if they did it nowadays the climate is much better for them to succeed in arming themselves. Under the laws of the current U.S. we can't discriminate, so if someone says all citizens have the right to weapons, it can't be weaseled away by saying except for black people. The only way blacks will lose their rights to legal gun ownership is if gun control advocates disarm them and make them more vulnerable.

 
Reagan literally rammed through a Gun Control Bill when he was Governor of California because of the Black Panthers.
 
Yes, he did. And it affected all citizen's equally. It did not say Guns are legal for everyone except black people. It's a case of a racist ass taking away EVERYONE's rights because he was racist. If a republican tried that now he'd be kicked out of the party. Also tell me did the democrats try and stop the Bill at all?
 
Yes, he did. And it affected all citizen's equally. It did not say Guns are legal for everyone except black people. It's a case of a racist ass taking away EVERYONE's rights because he was racist. If a republican tried that now he'd be kicked out of the party.

Bullshit they would. Republicans have been A-OK with measures that take away rights and opportunities from minorities for decades.
 
Bullshit they would. Republicans have been A-OK with measures that take away rights and opportunities from minorities for decades.
Not, for guns they won't. Don't flatter yourself and think hate towards your particular group is the strongest motivator for people you barely know. Vast majority of gun owners aren't going to support gun control if black people and/or the black panthers start marching publicly with weapons. It's people on the left/democrats who do that.
 
So? Yes killing police officers or politicians because of a certain law is terrorism. But terrorism is just what the big army calls the little army, terrorism is not inherently bad terrorism is using violence for a political cause, in a guerrilla warfare style way. So the Nazis invading nations with armies, tanks, and planes isn't terrorism because it's overt and not subvert guerrilla style. But when those Helot rebels ambushed a Spartan army, that's terrorism the early parts of the American Revolution with the sons of liberty capturing tax collectors and tarring and feathering them, terrorism, partisans killing Nazi soldiers, terrorism. Terrorism is killing for political reasons when you are the weaker party, if you are a strong party it's just regular war, or a police action. But terrorism is more a tactic than anything, it's just that in the modern day it's been used by mostly regressive radical religious, and racial supremacists. So just saying something is terrorism in regards to gun rights defenders is just an ad hominim and bad one at that, where you are trying to shut down the discussion. After all most people here would say someone was a hero if they were a member of the French resistance in ww2 and they stabbed or shot a drunken german soldier who did not have his weapon and was walking down an alleyway. But that is terrorism.
Terrorism is specifically using violence against civilians to terrorize them into doing what you want.
An armed citizenry is useful for a free nation, only wannabe tyrants want to disarm people and make it harder for them to resist the governments enforcers.
No it isn't. What good is an office drone with an AR-15 against a M1A2 Abrams or an AC-130? Or are you saying any random civilian should be able to buy Javelin missiles and Stinger MANPADS? 'Cause that'd be a horrible idea.
 
Not, for guns they won't. Don't flatter yourself and think hate towards your particular group is the strongest motivator for people you barely know. Vast majority of gun owners aren't going to support gun control if black people and/or the black panthers start marching publicly with weapons. It's people on the left/democrats who do that.
I find that unlikely, given how the right-wing, pro-gun media failed to rally behind legal gun-owner Philando Castile after he was murdered, but instead nitpicked his procedure in informing the police that there was a gun in his car.
 
Terrorism is specifically using violence against civilians to terrorize them into doing what you want.
No it's not. If some insurgent in Iraq was firing mortars at an army base, or a sniper took a shot at a soldier and never even touched a civillian they'd still be called terrorists.

No it isn't. What good is an office drone with an AR-15 against a M1A2 Abrams or an AC-130? Or are you saying any random civilian should be able to buy Javelin missiles and Stinger MANPADS? 'Cause that'd be a horrible idea.
Yes, people should be able to have anything except wmd's.
Also that first statement you said about AR-15's being useless against planes and tanks is one of the most idiotic things I've heard. In a guerrilla war you don't go up and fight tanks and planes up front, you'd be striking where the government is weakest. I'm going to explain this to you simply so you can understand it.

You cannot control an entire country and its people with tanks, jets, battleships and drones or any of these things that you so stupidly believe trumps citizen ownership of firearms.

A fighter jet, tank, drone, battleship or whatever cannot stand on street corners. And enforce "no assembly" edicts. A fighter jet cannot kick down your door at 3AM and search your house for contraband.

None of these things can maintain the needed police state to completely subjugate and enslave the people of a nation. Those weapons are for decimating, flattening and glassing large areas and many people at once and fighting other state militaries. The government does not want to kill all of its people and blow up its own infrastructure. These are the very things they need to be tyrannical assholes in the first place. If they decided to turn everything outside of Washington D.C. into glowing green glass they would be the absolute rulers of a big, worthless, radioactive pile of shit.

Police are needed to maintain a police state, boots on the ground. And no matter how many police you have on the ground they will always be vastly outnumbered by civilians which is why in a police state it is vital that your police have automatic weapons while the people have nothing but their limp dicks.

BUT when every random pedestrian could have a Glock in their waistband and every random homeowner an AR-15 all of that goes out the fucking window because now the police are out numbered and face the reality of bullets coming back at them.

If you want living examples of this look at every insurgency that the U.S. military has tried to destroy. They're all still kicking with nothing but AK-47s, pick up trucks and improvised explosives because these big scary military monsters you keep alluding to are all but fucking useless for dealing with them.
 
Yes, people should be able to have anything except wmd's.
This first: Think how much damage a single domestic terrorist could do with a HMG or light autocannon mounted on a pickup truck. Compare that to the slim possibility that the US government will need to be violently overthrown without at least part of the military having defected.
Also that first statement you said about AR-15's being useless against planes and tanks is one of the most idiotic things I've heard. In a guerrilla war you don't go up and fight tanks and planes up front, you'd be striking where the government is weakest. I'm going to explain this to you simply so you can understand it.

You cannot control an entire country and its people with tanks, jets, battleships and drones or any of these things that you so stupidly believe trumps citizen ownership of firearms.

A fighter jet, tank, drone, battleship or whatever cannot stand on street corners. And enforce "no assembly" edicts. A fighter jet cannot kick down your door at 3AM and search your house for contraband.

None of these things can maintain the needed police state to completely subjugate and enslave the people of a nation. Those weapons are for decimating, flattening and glassing large areas and many people at once and fighting other state militaries. The government does not want to kill all of its people and blow up its own infrastructure. These are the very things they need to be tyrannical assholes in the first place. If they decided to turn everything outside of Washington D.C. into glowing green glass they would be the absolute rulers of a big, worthless, radioactive pile of shit.

Police are needed to maintain a police state, boots on the ground. And no matter how many police you have on the ground they will always be vastly outnumbered by civilians which is why in a police state it is vital that your police have automatic weapons while the people have nothing but their limp dicks.

BUT when every random pedestrian could have a Glock in their waistband and every random homeowner an AR-15 all of that goes out the fucking window because now the police are out numbered and face the reality of bullets coming back at them.

If you want living examples of this look at every insurgency that the U.S. military has tried to destroy. They're all still kicking with nothing but AK-47s, pick up trucks and improvised explosives because these big scary military monsters you keep alluding to are all but fucking useless for dealing with them.
The reason these insurgencies survive is because they are comprised of fanatical true believers who hide amongst the civilian population. They are also fairly small and very unpopular with the local populous. If ~60% of the US population decided 'fuck the government', they wouldn't even need guns because they have the numbers to simply stroll into DC and defenestrate every bureaucrat in the city. Armed insurrection is for movements without popular backing.
 
This first: Think how much damage a single domestic terrorist could do with a HMG or light autocannon mounted on a pickup truck. Compare that to the slim possibility that the US government will need to be violently overthrown without at least part of the military having defected.
Well it's a response to the people who joke about the 2nd ammendment arms referring to single shot black powder rifles. At the time the constitution was made civillian and other private entities like companies could have the same personal weapons as a soldier aka a rifle, the same artillery aka cannons, and the same type of ship aka old style wooden sailing ships with cannons. So if the 2nd ammendment only applies to things that were around in the 1770's the government should be forbidden from owning anything more modern then also.

The reason these insurgencies survive is because they are comprised of fanatical true believers who hide amongst the civilian population. They are also fairly small and very unpopular with the local populous. If ~60% of the US population decided 'fuck the government', they wouldn't even need guns because they have the numbers to simply stroll into DC and defenestrate every bureaucrat in the city. Armed insurrection is for movements without popular backing.
LOL no, not at all. Because a dictatorship can be supported by the minority, so 40% support is pretty big. It works for Saddam and other Baathist regimes. But yes, tanks, drones, and massive bombs are only available to use on foreign soil, and even then the U.S. doesen't go full ham. That's why it pisses me off when people bring up drones like they are useful at all to fight insurgents when they are not, they would barely cause any damage to an insurgency, and they can be fought against.
 
Last edited:
Rule 4: Misleading about sources, derailing to gun control
AB-1591 was authored by Don Mulford (R) from Oakland, John T. Knox (D) from Richmond, Walter J. Karabian (D) from Monterey Park, Alan Sieroty (D) from Los Angeles, and William M. Ketchum (R) from Bakersfield,[5] it passed both Assembly (controlled by Democrats 42:38) and Senate (split 20:20) and was signed by Governor Ronald Reagan on July 28. The law banned the carrying of loaded weapons in public. [6]

Both Republicans and Democrats in California supported increased gun control. Governor Ronald Reagan, who was coincidentally present on the capitol lawn when the protesters arrived, later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will." In a later press conference, Reagan added that the Mulford Act "would work no hardship on the honest citizen."[7]
Would you look at that, supported by democrats. Modern Republicans have a lot of problems with racism, but racism isn't what defines them or their number 1 goal. They would not all jump ship and start supporting gun control if the black panthers did that again today. Some might but the majority of pro 2nd Amendment people would not.
 
Well it's a response to the people who joke about the 2nd ammendment arms referring to single shot black powder rifles. At the time the constitution was made civillian and other private entities like companies could have the same personal weapons as a soldier aka a rifle, the same artillery aka cannons, and the same type of ship aka old style wooden sailing ships with cannons. So if the 2nd ammendment only applies to things that were around in the 1770's the government should be forbidden from owning anything more modern then also.
And it also put restrictions on such things by specifically linking weapons ownership to local and state irregular volunteer forces. Something the gun nuts pointedly ignore.
LOL no, not at all. Because a dictatorship can be supported by the minority, so 40% support is pretty big. It works for Saddam and other Baathist regimes. But yes, tanks, drones, and massive bombs are only available to use on foreign soil, and even then the U.S. doesen't go full ham. That's why it pisses me off when people bring up drones like they are useful at all to fight insurgents when they are not, they would barely cause any damage to an insurgency, and they can be fought against.
If a large majority instigate an uprising, a minority regime literally cannot stop it, just look at the Indian independence movement. Hell, even a sizable minority can do quite well if the populous is split, like in the American Revolution itself.
 
And it also put restrictions on such things by specifically linking weapons ownership to local and state irregular volunteer forces. Something the gun nuts pointedly ignore.

If a large majority instigate an uprising, a minority regime literally cannot stop it, just look at the Indian independence movement. Hell, even a sizable minority can do quite well if the populous is split, like in the American Revolution itself.
With weapons yes they can. But 6 unarmed people against 4 people with guns will die, it doesen't matter if they are outnumbered. And your example of the American revolution was a war fought with weapons. The Indian independence movement happened because the British allowed it, the Indians did not take their independence it was given to them the same as the Canadians, unlike the Americans who got it no matter what Britain's wishes were.
 
With weapons yes they can. But 6 unarmed people against 4 people with guns will die, it doesen't matter if they are outnumbered. And your example of the American revolution was a war fought with weapons. The Indian independence movement happened because the British allowed it, the Indians did not take their independence it was given to them the same as the Canadians, unlike the Americans who got it no matter what Britain's wishes were.
There you go with the assumption that a 60% popularity uprising automatically mean the status quo has the other 40%, all of whom are willing to go out and shoot people that they have a decent chance of knowing personally. As to my examples, India was given independence because a sizable majority went out to demand it and Britain caved. Meanwhile, the Revolution was bloody and violent because Britain chose to escalate the situation and the colonists responded in kind. It could likely have been accomplished without bloodshed though, given how only a third of the population was pro-Britain.
 
There you go with the assumption that a 60% popularity uprising automatically mean the status quo has the other 40%, all of whom are willing to go out and shoot people that they have a decent chance of knowing personally. As to my examples, India was given independence because a sizable majority went out to demand it and Britain caved. Meanwhile, the Revolution was bloody and violent because Britain chose to escalate the situation and the colonists responded in kind. It could likely have been accomplished without bloodshed though, given how only a third of the population was pro-Britain.

Not even a third. People have got to stop misusing that John Adams quote.
 
Well it's a response to the people who joke about the 2nd ammendment arms referring to single shot black powder rifles. At the time the constitution was made civillian and other private entities like companies could have the same personal weapons as a soldier aka a rifle, the same artillery aka cannons, and the same type of ship aka old style wooden sailing ships with cannons. So if the 2nd ammendment only applies to things that were around in the 1770's the government should be forbidden from owning anything more modern then also.

The Second Amendment was never about enshrining a right to rebellion.

Article:
Finally, we must remember that those who created the United States understood the nature of a revolution--they had participated in one. In the Declaration of Independence they certainly asserted the right "to alter or to abolish" any government.137​ But, with a democratic republic created by the Constitution, the need for a violent revolution disappeared. Every two years there would be an opportunity to participate in an orderly process to replace the existing government. Some of the very early state constitutions, written during the Revolution itself, not surprisingly endorsed the right of revolution. However, the framers of 1787 did not endorse such a right. The Constitution does not have a suicide clause in it, and no one intended that it should have such a clause. Indeed, as John Marshall said even before the Convention finished its deliberations, "nothing but the adoption of some efficient plan from the Convention can prevent Anarchy first, & civil Convulsions afterwards."138​ After the Convention, Oliver Ellsworth, who would precede Marshall as Chief Justice, summed up this position: "Anarchy, or a want of such government as can protect the interests of the subjects against foreign and domestic injustice, is the worst of all conditions."139​ The goal was to prevent anarchy, violence, and rebellions. This prevention was accomplished by controlling the militias and the army and by retaining the right to limit weapons to those who formed "A well regulated Militia."

President Jackson made this point clear during the Nullification Crisis, when warning South Carolina to step back from the brink of secession and constitutional disaster. Responding to the Palmetto State's claim to a Revolutionary-era heritage, Jackson reminded the nullifiers that they were "free members of a flourishing and happy Union,"and that "[t]here [was] no settled design to oppress [them]."140​ Jackson's point, which Lincoln would reiterate to the South in 1861, was that the Constitution contemplated numerous ways for unhappy citizens, or even states, to protest federal legislation, but that these means did not include nullification, secession, or any other sort of rebellion.

The Constitution provided for a standing army and for the national government to arm and provide rules and regulations for state militias, which could be federalized when necessary. The Second Amendment allows for these state militias, which were "well regulated" under statutes passed by Congress, but the Amendment was clearly not designed to insure some sort of permanent revolutionary potential. Indeed, allowing for armed, unregulated citizens, who could threaten the public order and the national state, was unnecessary, unwise, and utterly in conflict with the "more perfect Union" the framers had created in Philadelphia. The "father of the Constitution," as Madison is often called, did not draft the Bill of Rights to undo his hard work at Philadelphia.

Paul Finkelman, "A Well Regulated Militia": The Second Amendment in Historical Perspective, 76 Chi.-Kent L. Rev. 195, 221-22 (2000)


Article:
In 1776, Massachusetts passed, at the behest of the Continental Congress, an act that disarmed "such Persons as are notoriously disaffected to the Cause of America, or who refuse to associate to defend by Arms the United American Colonies."130​ The Massachusetts law required "every Male Person above sixteen Years of Age" to subscribe to a "test" of allegiance to the "United American Colonies."131​ One who failed to subscribe to this test was "disarmed . . . [of] all such Arms, Ammunition and Warlike Implements, as by the strictest Search can be found in his Possession or belonging to him."132​

The Massachusetts law is interesting because it exempts Quakers from signing the test of allegiance administered to all other men.133​ To accommodate their religion, Quakers were provided with a different form of declaration.134​ Thus, under the circumstances, the right for a Quaker to practice his religion outweighed the state's interest in its preferred test of allegiance. The right to bear arms, however, did not outweigh the state's interest in maintaining security through disarmament of those considered dangerous to the state. Instead, the state's interest in public safety dominated.

Disarmament was not limited to the arguably extraordinary period of the American Revolution. In 1787, the Massachusetts legislature passed a law setting out the terms for pardons by the governor for persons who had been involved in Shays's rebellion against the state in the previous year.135​ Those who had taken up arms against the state were, with some exceptions, able to seek a pardon from the governor.136​ To obtain the pardon, however, a person needed to take an oath of allegiance to the state and deliver his arms to the state for a *508 period of three years.137​ In addition, during the same time period, the person would be unable to serve as a juror, hold government office, or vote "for any officer, civil or military."138​

The nature of the other disqualifications that went along with disarmament only underscores the civic character of the right to bear arms. Those seeking pardon were not robbed of a right to free speech or free exercise of their religion, rights indisputably associated with individuals. Instead, the penalties deal more with the rights and obligations associated with a citizen's duty to society: participation in government as a political official, participation in the legal process as a juror, participation in the electoral process as a voter, and participation in the militia.139​ The law demonstrates that in a well regulated society, the state could disarm those it deemed likely to disrupt society. These types of statutes raise serious questions about the claim of some modern Second Amendment scholars that the right to bear arms was somehow intended to facilitate an individual right of revolution.140​ Quite the opposite was the case. To enjoy the right to bear arms, one had to renounce such revolutionary aspirations. While one might argue such a case if the Second Amendment had been authored by Daniel Shays and his supporters, such radical voices were noticeably absent in the First Congress that drafted the Bill of Rights.141​


Saul Cornell & Nathan DeDino, A Well Regulated Right: The Early American Origins of Gun Control, 73 Fordham L. Rev. 487, 507-08 (2004)


So the Founding Fathers allowed for the requirement of literal loyalty oaths, and refusing to swear loyalty to America would lead the state to ban you from owning guns. Given that this is acceptable behavior according to the Founding Fathers, it's clear that you have the same 'right' to revolution as you have the 'right' to mass murder. None at all.

Article:
Gun rights legal scholars have made a number of remarkable, almost phantasmagorical claims about the meaning of the term "well regulated." Perhaps the most far-fetched of these is the suggestion that well regulated did not mean government-controlled, but only properly disciplined and drilled.109​ In the view of Don Kates and Randy Barnett, it makes no sense to read the Second Amendment "as authorizing regulation of arms."110​ The authors of this curious interpretation of the Second Amendment have constructed a fantasy world where words mean their opposite, and regulation is really anti-regulation. This version of early American history more closely resembles the Bizarro world described in Superman comic books and rendered in hilarious terms in America's best-loved postmodern situation comedy Seinfeld, than it does the constitutional thought of the Founding Era.111​ After reading bizarre claims like this, one can readily understand why historian Jack Rakove has likened the world of Second Amendment scholarship to a scholarly Twilight Zone.112​ Arguments such as those of Kates and Barnett are an example of history extra-lite, to borrow Martin Flaherty's apt characterization of so much legal scholarship produced in an originalist vein.113​ Finding evidence to show that the Bizarro Second Amendment is a fiction *505 created by modern gun rights scholarship, and not an accurate representation of early American history, is not difficult. If one simply looks at the gun laws adopted in the Founding Era and early Republic, the evidence for robust regulation is extensive.114​ If American history fit the Bizarro model, then gun regulation after the adoption of the Second Amendment would have virtually disappeared.115​ In reality, the decades after ratification of the Second Amendment saw increased, not decreased, levels of regulation.116​

Saul Cornell & Nathan DeDino, A Well Regulated Right: The Early American Origins of Gun Control, 73 Fordham L. Rev. 487, 504-05 (2004)


Article:
During the American Revolution, several states passed laws providing for the confiscation of weapons owned by persons refusing to swear an oath of allegiance to the state or the United States.

Saul Cornell & Nathan DeDino, A Well Regulated Right: The Early American Origins of Gun Control, 73 Fordham L. Rev. 487, 506 (2004)


After the passing of the Second Amendment, with the tacit or explicit approval of the federal government, the states regulated guns even more thoroughly. This is because the right the Second Amendment protects is the state right to operate a militia, not the personal right to own guns. If the Second Amendment was about creating a right to rebellion, the drafters of the United States Constitution would not have endorsed a state deciding to force literal loyalty oaths on its population, then take away every single gun of every single person who refused to take that oath. But you know, apparently the people who actually drafted the constitution thought that the Second Amendment was entirely compatible with taking away guns from people you didn't like, or who were a threat to the government.

And there is basically literally no discussion, at all, about some individual need to own firearms to protect against oppression. There's a lot of discussion about the fear of the states being disarmed by the federal government, which makes sense given the Second Amendment was about preventing the United States from disarming state militias in favor of a federal standing army, not about any sort of individual right to own weapons.

Honestly, if we were interpreting the Second Amendment honestly, California could ban all civilian ownership of all guns forever, and that would be 100% okay, but if California tried to build its own nuclear deterrent independent of the US and the US government told it that it couldn't do so, that would violate the Second Amendment.
 
After the passing of the Second Amendment, with the tacit or explicit approval of the federal government, the states regulated guns even more thoroughly. This is because the right the Second Amendment protects is the state right to operate a militia, not the personal right to own guns. If the Second Amendment was about creating a right to rebellion, the drafters of the United States Constitution would not have endorsed a state deciding to force literal loyalty oaths on its population, then take away every single gun of every single person who refused to take that oath. But you know, apparently the people who actually drafted the constitution thought that the Second Amendment was entirely compatible with taking away guns from people you didn't like, or who were a threat to the government.

And there is basically literally no discussion, at all, about some individual need to own firearms to protect against oppression. There's a lot of discussion about the fear of the states being disarmed by the federal government, which makes sense given the Second Amendment was about preventing the United States from disarming state militias in favor of a federal standing army, not about any sort of individual right to own weapons.

Honestly, if we were interpreting the Second Amendment honestly, California could ban all civilian ownership of all guns forever, and that would be 100% okay, but if California tried to build its own nuclear deterrent independent of the US and the US government told it that it couldn't do so, that would violate the Second Amendment.

Indeed. The modern understanding is based on a complete (and malicious) misinterpretation of the law, largely promoted by the Birchers when they took over the NRA with the backing of the gun industry.
 
Back
Top