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The Silver King (An ASOIAF Quest)

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Elder Haman said:
You know, there was a reason we rejected Baelor Hightower before as a candidate for Hand.

His intrigue is 4.

That's almost certainly lower than Ned Stark's, and unlike Ned who has Ashara to back him up on Intrigue issues, Baelor doesn't actually have someone to do that. His sister only has 12 as her Intrigue score.

Intrigue is definitely going to be an issue that the Hand has to deal with.

It's one of the major reasons I think telling Arryn and others to get bent and appoint Doran would be a decent choice.
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Baelor has Ravana Reyne.

The ability to work with the Small Council and the King is a bigger qualifier than any individual stat, per WoG. I've seen nothing to indicate that Baelor and Ravana do not or cannot work well together, or that either of them would disappoint Rhaegar by not working together and doing the jobs he's asked them to do. Speaking of 'jobs they're asked to do', Baelor has been a visible, loyal, and effective agent on our behalf for years now -- standing literally by our side in the war, handling capital projects, managing diplomatic entanglements -- all with skill and success, and without complications or damaging any existing interpersonal or political structures. And, not for nothing, but being around the Red Keep in general and the Royal Family's inner circle in particular means these people all at least know Baelor and would have some level of cordial relationship with him, even if they don't necessarily know or like him well. None of those things are true for Doran Martell.

Meanwhile, in the best-case scenario for Doran Martell: one SC member will not work well with him, or apparently most Dornish folk (Arryn); one is at best contemptuously indifferent to the Dornish, so (again) at best a complete wild card, making the wildly optimistic assumption he wouldn't be won over by Arryn on a given issue (Baratheon); and three have no pre-existing relationship we're aware of. That's the best-case scenario. Westerosi lords have about as low an opinion of the Dornish as they have of the Ironborn, and unlike Quellon, Doran has not spent a great deal of time, energy and capital to alter this opinion.
Vocalist said:
Now I'm wishing I had divided the vote up to let you choose to send Jon home or take him to war. Hm. I might have to do an extra vote.

Thanks! It's good to hear some feedback on that part.

I'd like to say that, overall, Rhaegar & friends did amazingly well this story arc. Arthur slew a demon with a nat 100, Elia grappled with a Faceless Man and survived - giving Rhaegar an out when said Faceless Man tried to accuse him of killing her - the diplomatic fallout of Aerys' death is mostly contained, and finally Rhaegar managed to face down the White King and tell him to fuck off! He threw off his spells while critically exhausted!
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I am indeed overall quite pleased with the rolls and results ... though this makes me question the average intelligence of the smallfolk of King's Landing. Even being me (usually the first person in the room to quote Tommy Lee Jones' line from MIB: "a person is smart; people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals") I still am struck that no one (or only a few people, whose reasoning is ignored in favour of the juicy rumourmongering) points out that "if the Prince Regent was gonna kill his batshit insane father, who definitely wanted to kill him and would have at the first opportunity, why wouldn't he have done that right away, instead of keeping the Mad King alive for another two years, keeping himself off the throne and beholden to a bunch of other lords?"

In terms of Jon, I mean ... I think that we could certainly have voted to send him home, but then I suspect we'd arrive at the front to meet an oddly familiar man with a griffin and blue hair calling himself "Griff, totally unrelated to Lord Connington, never mind the griffin or the familiar face and voice, Your Grace." Just as I don't think there was any chance Rhaegar would think objectively about the consequences of his deal or bringing Jon back in the first place, I don't think Jon would be a very good listener about being ordered home to recuperate when Rhaegar's going off to war.
 
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I'm going to let the vote go for some more time before closing.

Anyway, I'm having a shitty week, so I'd like to ask for writing feedback. Writing is my escape, so this cheers me up.
 
Well! I like how you use the idea of interconnected parallel worlds to intertwine interesting what ifs with the "main" timeline (or rather our timeline) of this Quest.

Because from a certain point of view, "the White King" may very well be us too; or rather could have been us, if we have taken some different choices.

For example, looks like WK!Rhaegar is still mourning… Perhaps he too lost Ellia in childbirth, but at that point in time he didn't dare to bring her back for fear of the consequences; and since that day, regret has been eating him alive.

And now, one bad decision after another… Well, here we are. The timelines are converging. It's going to be interesting!
 
I really liked how you portrayed the human yet inhuman-ess of the White King. It's the fact that he knows what he is doing is wrong but doesn't care/does it anyway that makes him a much more chilling foe than the Others. The Others just want things to be quiet. The White King is far more terrible.

And it's interesting that the White King chose to kill Aerys. I wonder where the point of divergence is? I'm assuming before the current point because he killed Aerys and we didn't.

Also in general I just love how the characters are a mix of comedy and seriousness. You do a good job striking the balance and I always really look forward to reading your updates (and often just re-read this quest treating it like an on-going novel)
 
Vocalist said:
Anyway, I'm having a shitty week, so I'd like to ask for writing feedback. Writing is my escape, so this cheers me up.
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stuckunderwater said:
I really liked how you portrayed the human yet inhuman-ess of the White King. It's the fact that he knows what he is doing is wrong but doesn't care/does it anyway that makes him a much more chilling foe than the Others. The Others just want things to be quiet. The White King is far more terrible.

And it's interesting that the White King chose to kill Aerys. I wonder where the point of divergence is? I'm assuming before the current point because he killed Aerys and we didn't.

Also in general I just love how the characters are a mix of comedy and seriousness. You do a good job striking the balance and I always really look forward to reading your updates (and often just re-read this quest treating it like an on-going novel)
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Likewise for me, to stuck's commentary.

Not just with this past update but the work in general, I always find it interesting, and challenging in the best of ways, to continually be forced to re-evaluate my preconceived notions about existing characters. Like, I've had a complete 180 on Robert Baratheon from the start of the quest, and now I find myself reconsidering my opinions on Jon Arryn (not just in terms of "support/generally okay guy --> get bent, you Wolsey wannabe", but also wondering just who the more ardent schemers really were in STAB) and what his relationship to Robert and Ned looks like here, what with both of them aligning so much closer to Rhaegar and his inner circle.

And it's a delight to see how seamlessly canon characters (and their voices*) integrate with characters who are, fundamentally, OCs by nature of having little to no canon info about them or no sampling of how they sound/think. Just for instance: Rhaella, Elia, Quellon, Urri, all of them with no in-text dialogue or much insight into their characters offered in ASoIaF, here are all fully fleshed-out characters and stand evenly with any of the most well filled-in canon characters. Everything feels natural to what existing knowledge/opinions we have on those characters, even when it's as little information as what canonically exists on Urri. Not to mention, all of the canon characters are fully believable as younger versions of themselves: Jaime, for example, starting out much less jaded and cynical but still possessing a 'healthy' supply of dickishness and his innate charisma, or Robert without years of self-inflicted damage ... or Cersei, as much the self-absorbed flamingo as ever, though likewise without years of damage, cynicism and alcohol abuse stacked on top.

I don't feel like I can offer commentary on story direction or narrative because, like ASoIaF, it feels like those are driven by character, rather than the characters being made to conform to an existing design or narrative beats a creator wants to hit. For me, a great example of this is Rhaegar's Rebellion: in hindsight I can certainly see that we were getting on in the timeline, and sooner or later (to coin a phrase) Aerys gonna Aerys -- whether something happens and he predictably reacts like himself (an unstable stinkbomb of a human being) or 'one night he goes off crazier than usual' and makes something happen, pretty much any storyline/timeline (that doesn't somehow remove him or his madness from the picture) is going to eventually see a war being waged against him. Yet I was still taken entirely off-guard when the Rebellion began the way it did, but it was entirely believable and it felt earned, especially with the added context of Jaime's perspective later on. It wasn't a matter of saying "hurr durr, here's a thing I wanna have happen" and then reverse-engineering it to try and make character moments or motivations fit a desired outcome**. All that said, though, I've enjoyed the story direction and narrative, even when it's an event provoked by characters doing something that makes me go "what in the actual fuck" (pointed stare at Elia) or outcomes I don't personally want (I mean, I really wanted to keep Jaime around, but what's happened with his storyline makes sense, feels in-character, and feels justified).

I'm eager to see what happens next, especially on the Cethleann front and on the personnel fronts, like Robert & Nenya (I remember from the Rebellion arc that war narratives weren't really your cup of tea, so while I am interested in what happens there I also don't want to make you feel like you should or need to wade back into a style of storytelling you aren't fond of or comfortable with for the sake of your audience). And, I will admit, I'm always kind of a sucker for the wonk-y nuts-and-bolts stuff of the realm -- whether it's devising the Ironborn SEALs, expanding King's Landing to work around the city's infrastructure & population problems, or codifying regency procedures, that's absolutely my jam, so I'm almost embarrassingly keen to make progress on those fronts, too. This has been a great ride the last two years (I think it may have singlehandedly kept me from being permanently turned off to the story universe, the way I've been with some other stories brought to an end by mediocre twits) and I hope we can keep it up for many more!



*for instance, I never once had any trouble hearing Tywin's lines read by Charles Dance in my head, which is usually my barometer both for "how good of a take on Tywin does this given piece of work have" and, in my own stuff, "does this actually sound like something he'd say, or is it something you've written that you just want him to say, with the result that it sounds wrong, stupid, or both."
The "this is what I want them to say/do vs. what they genuinely would say/do" is a trap writers often too easily give in to, and I've never once seen it happen here. That's been an immense privilege.


**I don't really place any stock in the concept of curses and stuff like that, but man I wish that I did so that I could curse the belligerently incompetent DB & DW at least once a month for the rest of their days.
 
Yeah, I agree with the others, on nearly all of the points made.

The one exeception is Marlowe's whole thing about his opinions about Robert and Jon changed due to this quest. This quest hasn't changed my opinion about those two, because I always kinda liked Robert despite everything (As Robert's Rebellion was a truely Just War, fought to rid the continent of those mad Dragon-Fuckers) and I never particularly liked Jon Arryn (He is to blame for lot crap in Robert's reign, including but not limited to: Queen Cersei, Varys' Pardon, Jamie Lannister's Pardon, Bring Baelish to court & Not getting Robert to contribute when it came to the actual work of Kingship)
 
Oh and if it would make it easier for the upcoming war to write about it in the way you ended up wrapping up the rebellion arc (through the lens of historians) please do! It was fun to read it in that style and I know as a writer war arcs aren't super fun for you. I read this story for the character interactions more than war maneuvering anyway.
 
Marlowe310811 said:
reconsidering my opinions on Jon Arryn (not just in terms of "support/generally okay guy --> get bent, you Wolsey wannabe", but also wondering just who the more ardent schemers really were in STAB)
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Temes1066 said:
I never particularly liked Jon Arryn (He is to blame for lot crap in Robert's reign, including but not limited to: Queen Cersei, Varys' Pardon, Jamie Lannister's Pardon, Bring Baelish to court & Not getting Robert to contribute when it came to the actual work of Kingship)
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Looks like Team Ice Dragon, might be seeking a new Master of Laws, soon enough.

Who amoungst the Dornish, Crownlander and Riverlander Lords has the Highest Diplomacy, just in case something happened?
 
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I mean, to be clear, I don't wanna get rid of Jon Arryn (yet); his gender politics aside he is, as described, hypercompetent and works well with the rest of the Small Council (though, with his gender views, I do wonder just how much he plays along with the "Emmon Frey is Master of Coin" fiction) and he hasn't been remotely disloyal or demonstrated being a problem. While it obviously didn't work out with Varys, I think when it comes to STAB there's something to be said for a "keep your enemies close" approach, especially when it comes to Jon Arryn. I also think removing or dismissing him could cause problems with Robert and Ned, which we absolutely Do Not Want, and at the moment the only person even close to as well suited for the job is Baelor Hightower ... who we've got other designs for. My "get bent" attitude towards Arryn at the moment is more of the "now I kinda want to name Nenya as Hand of the King even more, specifically to make your wrinkly old ass uncomfortable" than the "I am done with you and want you gone" variety.

Speaking of making misogynists uncomfortable, is there a way we can get Mariya Vaith around more, like maybe ask her to be Rhaenys' sworn sword? Like, it's not the most blatant option available for pissing in Randyll Tarly's tea, but it definitely makes the Top 100 List and that alone is reason enough for me to want her around.
 
notbirdofprey said:
We could also take Samwell as a ward when he's older, and teach him to play music.
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Yes, but we were always going to do that.

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I've given some thought to the division of land should we conquer both Lys, Tyrosh & Stepstones:
  • All of the Stepstones including Island of Tyrosh, will be the Lord Paramouncy of the Stepstones (with Tyrosh as the Capital)
  • All of the Lysene and Tyroshi disputed lands + Lys, will be the Lord Paramouncy of the Heel (with Lys as the Capital)
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@Vocalist, what were the Disputed Lands called before they became The Disputed Lands?
 
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Do we even want the disputed lands? They've mostly been ruined by the constant fighting over them.

Note that the disputed lands are on the Essos continent.

Passing on taking that land might sooth the fears of others in Essos (like Volantis) who might otherwise fear Westerosi intention to expand on to Essos.

Plus they could act as a enticement to gain Myr support against Tyrosh and Lys.

Creating two new Lords Paramount has some problems. For one thing the Seven Kingdoms has religious significance (the Seven).

On the other hand creating a high lord over the Stepstones that is sworn directly to the King at King's Landing (with the rest of the lords sworn to him, but not labeled a Lord Paramount) has precedent (the Iron Islands) and wouldn't disrupt things as much while being similar in effect.

Alternatively, have the lords on each island sworn directly to the King (like the Crownlands), which would lessen the likelihood of Stepstone secessionist efforts (like there has been in the Iron Islands).
 
What do you mean by "rich?"

It's been fought over by mercenaries for centuries. I'm sure any weaelth that is easy to carry off is pretty much gone by now. If anything the fighting in Westeros is probably less intense than in the Disputed Lands, as the longer wars go on the less restraint they are fought with. Any cities there have been repeatedly burned.

It could be rich farmland, in fact that's almost certainly the reason Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh keep fighting over it. It's the hinterland that feeds the great city that controls it. Which means tiny villages and holdfasts around defensible terrain and water sources.

In which case... why would we need it? We got the Reach and the Riverlands, both of which are major food baskets. In fact, that would improve our control over Tyrosh and Lys, if they have no local food source and must import from Westeros instead of the Disputed lands, it would make our economies become more intertwined and less plausible for them to rebel. (Basically they'd need to gain support from Myr, Pentos, or Volantis).
 
I want the Disputed Lands, so they can help serve as (part of) a Land route to the River Rhyone.
 
Temes1066 said:
I want the Disputed Lands, so they can help serve as (part of) a Land route to the River Rhyone.
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Why?

Sea routes are infinitely preferable to land routes. They are much faster and cheaper to transport goods and people.

Furthermore, there will always be a requirement to cross the sea even if there is a land route through the Disputed Lands, so the one benefit of a land route (not being vulnerable to a blockade) cannot be obtained.

The river Rhyone means that goods will be transported on ships all up and down it anyways, so switching to a land route only to then switch back to ships at Myr to cross the Narrow Sea is just a massive pain and expense. Instead you'd just sail a ship down the Rhyone, into the sea and then sail to Lys where you would stop for replenishment of supplies before sailing on to Westeros.

The only reason the Disputed Lands would be useful is if Lys is hostile, and we have enough ships to control the Narrow Sea, but not enough naval dominance to suppress Lys. Which is a very narrow and undesirable situation to be in. Better just to conquer Lys and act as if we have no interest in the Essos mainland.

So that seems like very small benefits, for a pretty significant cost. If we try to claim the Disputed Lands then we definitely gain the enmity of Myr, and probably put Pentos and Volantis on their guards. Perhaps even convincing Braavos to support the Three Daughters and/or Volantis despite their traditional hostility and rivalry.

Instead of divided enemies we'd have an Essos coalition form against us.
 
You're thinking in terms of the future, after we're done. I think what Temes is talking about is the process of getting there; going through the Disputed Lands means we don't have to fight our way upriver against Volantis and any allied cities they are able to acquire. Going overland means quicker, easier access to the Rhoyne, at which point it will be much harder for Volantis to fight back against us (they'll be the ones having to fight upriver, not us) and they have to spend all that time amassing force and fighting against the river itself (and oh hey, a bunch of pirates along the river, too) while we have time to entrench, fortify, and send things downriver against them.

Strategically, overland is the much smarter way to get to the Rhoyne.
 
Elder Haman said:
Sea routes are infinitely preferable to land routes. They are much faster and cheaper to transport goods and people.
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Perhaps the sea route is a better way to get there, but it would also be vunrable to storms and pirates. Having both land and Sea routes open to us would be safer for travellers and transport, as if one becomes unsafe the other can be used. In addition our future colonies along the River Rhoyne would be safer if there were not totally surrounded by the lands of various Essosi powers.

Plus, I said we will annex the parts of the disputed lands (i.e. the parts controlled by Lys and Tyrosh) I said nothing about going after the Myrish parts of the disputed lands. In addition the rich farmland, we aquire could be used to more food, which would allow us to gather a surplus of food, which is useful when winter comes, as the people, especially those in the north, may need more food to eat.

Edit: There is also what @Marlowe310811 said.
 
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The Heel of Essos
  • Informational
    • Thanks so much for your comments, everyone. I sincerely appreciate them.
    Temes1066 said:
    @Vocalist, what were the Disputed Lands called before they became The Disputed Lands?
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    The Heel of Essos. Before being conquered by the Freehold it was divided into various petty kingdoms, but their names are now of interest only to historians.

    Here's my Word of God on the matter: As you have guessed, the Disputed Lands are incredibly valuable as a source of food to Myr, Lys and Tyrosh. Myr, not as much - it has other directions it can expand into - but the Myrish still like to keep what they can of it to deny their rivals and strengthen their relative position. The Lyseni have some cultivated land on the Blessed Isle, but not enough. And Tyrosh was founded as a Freehold military outpost, and was never even meant to be self-sufficient. All of these cities can survive on imported food if they really need to - and often have in the past - but they prefer not to. Depending on your regional rivals for food is not a position any nation wants to be in; growing your own is more secure and less expensive. And, should the island cities become Westerosi possessions, feeding them will become your responsibility. Westeros grows enough food to feed itself through all but the worst winters (assuming trade links stay open). But if you add hundreds of thousands more people, with no corresponding increase in arable land...well, that's something you ought to think about before winter comes. I'm just saying, when the cold winds blow, whoever has surplus food is going to make a killing, and the Heel of Essos is gonna be a nice piece of property to own.

    As to the state of the Disputed Lands themselves, it's not called a "wasteland" because it's a desert of bones and skulls, but because it's thinly cultivated. Most of it is rather pretty, actually. You see, medieval warfare methods can't destroy the fertility of an entire region, but what they can do is destroy settlements and infrastructure. Anything built in the Heel of Essos will be attacked by someone within a few decades. Even the walled forts get abandoned and re-garrisoned as borders shift, and every peasant who lives there keeps a runny-sack. Sometimes the Free Cities have to resort to paying people to settle there, or offering freedom to criminals if they'll just become farmers in a newly-rebuilt village. The whole place is less populated and less productive than it was during the Pax Valyria, but that's not any problem with the land itself. The Free Cities are just too busy fighting over it to fully make use of it.
     
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    • Vocalist said:
    The Heel of Essos. Before being conquered by the Freehold it was divided into various petty kingdoms, but their names are now of interest only to historians.
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    Temes1066 said:
    I've given some thought to the division of land should we conquer both Lys, Tyrosh & Stepstones:
    • All of the Stepstones including Island of Tyrosh, will be the Lord Paramouncy of the Stepstones (with Tyrosh as the Capital)
    • All of the Lysene and Tyroshi disputed lands + Lys, will be the Lord Paramouncy of the Heel (with Lys as the Capital)
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    Very well, it shall be the Lord Paramouncy of the Heel.
     
    Sorry for the double post, but two thoughts occured.

    First, what is the Kingsguard going to be doing during this war:
    • Are we taking them all with us to guard us?
    • Are we leaving them all behind to guard the royal family?
    • Are we taking some of them with us and leaving the others behind and if so how many (and who) shall come with us and how many (and who) shall stay behind?
    Secondly, since Baelor Hightower has become Hand, that also means we need to give Elia a new sworn shield, is there any possiblilty we can give the job to Jon Connington?
     
    Temes1066 said:
    Sorry for the double post, but two thoughts occured.

    First, what is the Kingsguard going to be doing during this war:
    • Are we taking them all with us to guard us?
    • Are we leaving them all behind to guard the royal family?
    • Are we taking some of them with us and leaving the others behind and if so how many (and who) shall come with us and how many (and who) shall stay behind?
    Secondly, since Baelor Hightower has become Hand, that also means we need to give Elia a new sworn shield, is there any possiblilty we can give the job to Jon Connington?
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    Well, we'll certainly take at least some of them -- they are the Kingsguard and we are the King. Personally, I'd at least want to leave behind Arthur and Lyanna for their respective siblings, perhaps Ser Bonifer as well. Otherwise, it would be a rational, even opportune time to start introducing the notion of a broader and larger guard, which I believe we've talked about before: making a Dragonsguard or something so we can have more than seven KG for the entire, ever-expanding Royal Family, and not having it be a lifetime appointment like the KG is.

    If we need a new sworn sword for Elia, perhaps another Hightower sibling, or Mariya Vaith again -- a mad Dornishwoman guarding a mad Dornishwoman may cause fewer problems than having a mad Dornishwoman guard the King's eldest child. Jon would probably turn down the job (and that assumes Elia wouldn't turn down him, either) and that again runs into the problem of "how exactly do we propose to keep Jon away from the front & Rhaegar's side?"
     
    The Dragonsguard isn't the worst idea. I'd say, have something like 7 Dragonsguard for each Kingsguard, and have them each under the command of a Kingsguard. Elite specialized units.

    The faith would like the use of 7, but even so, a lot of traditionalists would probably balk at so many men around the crown.

    I don't really see it working if it's not a multiple of seven.
     
    Marlowe310811 said:
    Well, we'll certainly take at least some of them -- they are the Kingsguard and we are the King. Personally, I'd at least want to leave behind Arthur and Lyanna for their respective siblings, perhaps Ser Bonifer as well.
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    So you think, we should take Barristan Selmy, Harras Harlaw & Jacelyn Bywater with us, when we go to war. I'm cool with that.

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    I just had a thought, could Elia use her powers to heal other people?
     
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