- Location
- United States
I know that this isn't in anyway remotely possible but I just found it funny. Voldemort is that you? Shouldn't you be failing to kill one person over and over again at a wizard school?
The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)
- Thread starter notbirdofprey
- Start date
- Fantasy
- Location
- Germany
It truly would not surprise me if the Roynar (spelling? Too lazy to check) regained their former glory as well.
force200
Megaspell Technician
- Location
- Stable <data corrupted>
@notbirdofprey you forgot to Treadmark the Rumor Mill.
Rough Ideas for next turn (assuming it is still winter):
Martial: 1 action locked, 1 open
[] Build a Fleet (Barrowtown): Ironborn and slavers threaten your coasts, and you have gone long enough without a fleet. Order one of your vassals to begin constructing ships, and offer gold and workers to see it done. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.
Diplomacy: Both actions locked
Probably have to use our Free ACtion here to try and fix the Logging mess before it blows up.
Stewardship: 2 actions open (since Roads finished early)
[] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.
[] Expand the Schools: You've a school in Winterfell which serves a few dozen children and less than twenty adults as a part-time duty for one or two of the acolytes. Buy a small building in Wintertown, give those acolytes the full-time duty of teaching people to read and write, give an incentive or two for people to learn and then join up with the civil service, and you expect to have classes much larger. Hopefully at least a few of the graduates will fill in the gaps in your civil service. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Increased literacy, support for civil service, Citadel attention.
[] The Wolf's Walls: One of the best ways to distinguish an actual town from a collection of houses and shops is the presence of walls. Only chartered towns may have them, and while your town lacks them it will never quite be seen properly. They also serve the twin functions of defense and helping keep order. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 25. Reward: Wintertown gets good walls.
Pick two from these three. Probably the first two.
Learning: 1 action locked, 1 action open (should be getting new options)
[] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.
Start working on books now that we got all the acolytes from the Citadel that we want.
Piety: 1 action locked, 1 open (should be getting new options)
[] Ritual Crafting: While the Sacred Arrows created by the rite do not last forever, several other rites do create objects or blessings that last for a long time. While some can be done by some of the more skilled among your Green Men, others are beyond the power of all but Frost, most notably the making of protective talismans. He will devote his time to doing so if you ask and have some of his brethren do the same. Thresholds will be blessed, beast-bane spears given to those in the Wolfswood, and a few sacred arrows will be made as an assurance. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed
[] Aggressive Recruiting: Not all who join the Green Men have the skill and strength of will necessary to perform even the simplest rituals, but some do. And some who do have the skill do not join, either for personal reasons or lack of opportunity. Frost refuses to do anything about the first, but the second he can help with. Coin and royal favor will certainly help him find those with the potential to wear the Green. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 1500 gold. DC: 45. Reward: More Green Men recruited.
[] War Runes: Runes have been carved into all manner of weapons and armor to no effect, but older runes still seem to function, at least to some extent. Some Green Men will study the runes in Winterfell and other ancient castles, while Frost will seek answers in the Greendream, an endeavor perilous to most. The secrets of the runes of the First Men and Children will be revealed, you hope, although you have been cautioned not to expect to much. Truly rediscovering them will be a long and difficult process. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 70. Reward: More knowledge of runes.
One of these three maybe?
Intrigue:
[] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.
[] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.
These maybe?
Personal:
Here I feel like last turn I made a mistake, because I thought the book was something different. I though it was going to provide cover for us to introduce more information into Westeros, and so allow the printing of books to sell. Oh well.
On one hand, I'd like to do these:
[] The God's Eyes: While you can open the God's Eyes more or less at will now, it can be difficult to keep them open, especially in places full of magic like Winterfell. You also suspect you are missing a great deal of nuance when you look at people or more complicated items like your crown, which just looks like plain metal. Or that skin, which makes you shudder whenever you think of it. Further practice could also extend how long you can use this gift. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 70. Reward: Greater control and skill with the God's Eyes, more information about the skin.
[] Warging Practice: There are very few things you can't do when it comes to warging. There is one challenge you have left to face. It will not be easy, you can be certain of that, even though it is a simple progression of your splitting yourself between your direwolf and yourself. You will split yourself between multiple animals at once. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 85. Reward: You get more skilled at warging.
But only if we have a Double Down available to put here.
Otherwise I'd like to do some Uplifts:
[] Uplift ____: You recall an invention or system, and try to figure out how it worked well enough that someone else can make it a reality. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked
Probably want to uplift a Waterpowered Loom.
I think we should also uplift by writing a book on Mathmatics (Algebra, Trig, and Calculus). Perhaps disguised as remnants of Empire of the Dawn knowledge, as filtered through summaries of various writers. That way it should be something we can send to the Citadel.
Another Uplift for a book on Chemistry (Period Table of Elements, things needed to create the foundation of a chemical industry- particularly fertilizer - but nothing too dangerous like gunpowder) and Physics (just some basic stuff). Again attributed to Empire of the Dawn. Perhaps even claim that the original Dawn Empire sailed among the stars to reach here.
And the final uplift book on Biology and Medicine (germ theory, blood types, etc.)
I think those three books would fit well with us also taking a 3 season action to Train our children in Learning.
But I'm not sure we want to get locked into that when we also want to get God's Eyes and Warging Practice in.
Martial: 1 action locked, 1 open
[] Build a Fleet (Barrowtown): Ironborn and slavers threaten your coasts, and you have gone long enough without a fleet. Order one of your vassals to begin constructing ships, and offer gold and workers to see it done. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.
Diplomacy: Both actions locked
Probably have to use our Free ACtion here to try and fix the Logging mess before it blows up.
Stewardship: 2 actions open (since Roads finished early)
[] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.
[] Expand the Schools: You've a school in Winterfell which serves a few dozen children and less than twenty adults as a part-time duty for one or two of the acolytes. Buy a small building in Wintertown, give those acolytes the full-time duty of teaching people to read and write, give an incentive or two for people to learn and then join up with the civil service, and you expect to have classes much larger. Hopefully at least a few of the graduates will fill in the gaps in your civil service. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Increased literacy, support for civil service, Citadel attention.
[] The Wolf's Walls: One of the best ways to distinguish an actual town from a collection of houses and shops is the presence of walls. Only chartered towns may have them, and while your town lacks them it will never quite be seen properly. They also serve the twin functions of defense and helping keep order. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 25. Reward: Wintertown gets good walls.
Pick two from these three. Probably the first two.
Learning: 1 action locked, 1 action open (should be getting new options)
[] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.
Start working on books now that we got all the acolytes from the Citadel that we want.
Piety: 1 action locked, 1 open (should be getting new options)
[] Ritual Crafting: While the Sacred Arrows created by the rite do not last forever, several other rites do create objects or blessings that last for a long time. While some can be done by some of the more skilled among your Green Men, others are beyond the power of all but Frost, most notably the making of protective talismans. He will devote his time to doing so if you ask and have some of his brethren do the same. Thresholds will be blessed, beast-bane spears given to those in the Wolfswood, and a few sacred arrows will be made as an assurance. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed
[] Aggressive Recruiting: Not all who join the Green Men have the skill and strength of will necessary to perform even the simplest rituals, but some do. And some who do have the skill do not join, either for personal reasons or lack of opportunity. Frost refuses to do anything about the first, but the second he can help with. Coin and royal favor will certainly help him find those with the potential to wear the Green. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 1500 gold. DC: 45. Reward: More Green Men recruited.
[] War Runes: Runes have been carved into all manner of weapons and armor to no effect, but older runes still seem to function, at least to some extent. Some Green Men will study the runes in Winterfell and other ancient castles, while Frost will seek answers in the Greendream, an endeavor perilous to most. The secrets of the runes of the First Men and Children will be revealed, you hope, although you have been cautioned not to expect to much. Truly rediscovering them will be a long and difficult process. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 70. Reward: More knowledge of runes.
One of these three maybe?
Intrigue:
[] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.
[] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.
These maybe?
Personal:
Here I feel like last turn I made a mistake, because I thought the book was something different. I though it was going to provide cover for us to introduce more information into Westeros, and so allow the printing of books to sell. Oh well.
On one hand, I'd like to do these:
[] The God's Eyes: While you can open the God's Eyes more or less at will now, it can be difficult to keep them open, especially in places full of magic like Winterfell. You also suspect you are missing a great deal of nuance when you look at people or more complicated items like your crown, which just looks like plain metal. Or that skin, which makes you shudder whenever you think of it. Further practice could also extend how long you can use this gift. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 70. Reward: Greater control and skill with the God's Eyes, more information about the skin.
[] Warging Practice: There are very few things you can't do when it comes to warging. There is one challenge you have left to face. It will not be easy, you can be certain of that, even though it is a simple progression of your splitting yourself between your direwolf and yourself. You will split yourself between multiple animals at once. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 85. Reward: You get more skilled at warging.
But only if we have a Double Down available to put here.
Otherwise I'd like to do some Uplifts:
[] Uplift ____: You recall an invention or system, and try to figure out how it worked well enough that someone else can make it a reality. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked
Probably want to uplift a Waterpowered Loom.
I think we should also uplift by writing a book on Mathmatics (Algebra, Trig, and Calculus). Perhaps disguised as remnants of Empire of the Dawn knowledge, as filtered through summaries of various writers. That way it should be something we can send to the Citadel.
Another Uplift for a book on Chemistry (Period Table of Elements, things needed to create the foundation of a chemical industry- particularly fertilizer - but nothing too dangerous like gunpowder) and Physics (just some basic stuff). Again attributed to Empire of the Dawn. Perhaps even claim that the original Dawn Empire sailed among the stars to reach here.
And the final uplift book on Biology and Medicine (germ theory, blood types, etc.)
I think those three books would fit well with us also taking a 3 season action to Train our children in Learning.
But I'm not sure we want to get locked into that when we also want to get God's Eyes and Warging Practice in.
The book on chemistry is useless and dangerous,we dont have any idea if all the elements from our world are present in this world plus we miss several advance before the tabel of elements.They dont even understant the nature of elents.On mathemathics we could try to introduce one of those theories if they are not known but they are useless right now so they can wait.The book on medicine is to unrealistic with the level of medical knowledge plus the lack of even the most basic instruments needed to prove those things.And blood types need advance instrument and knowledge to be viable .We could introduce some medical practices like desinfection of wounds with alchool plus a more strict hygiene during medical procedures.Westeros is several hundred years at least before we may even think of introducing those books.
Plus the introduction of those books will bring to much of attention on us.
Your plan is to expensive and we need a better spies network in the reach before we try anything that could bring citadel attention down on us.
For stewardship we need food and money.
For uplifting we may bring trashing machines powered by horses.
Plus the introduction of those books will bring to much of attention on us.
Your plan is to expensive and we need a better spies network in the reach before we try anything that could bring citadel attention down on us.
For stewardship we need food and money.
For uplifting we may bring trashing machines powered by horses.
I'm beginning to wonder how in blazes there's still people left in Westeros, when each turn and rumor mill they keep dropping like flies. LOL
For the Free Action, If there's a Diplomacy action to solve the matter with the Tallharts and co, I agree we should take it. If not, let's use the free action to get a second Intrigue action.
For Stewardship, I say Logging Camps and Wolf Walls. With the Civil Service no longer understaffed after hiring Citadel Acolytes, Expand the Schools isn't urgent. Plus, if we're finally building a fleet, Wolf Walls is cheaper. And it's also the last action to 'complete' Wintertown, and thus it can give us something.
For Learning, I'd like to make sure that Copy Books, is necessary to pass the Merchant's Quest before we bring more attention from the Citadel onto us. We should ask the QM.
For Piety, I think Aggressive Recruiting is too expensive to do while we need to spend on fleets. War Runes is 4 turns, so if we want to have it before the war, we should either take it now or forget it till after the war. If we do take it this turn, I think we should use the Double Down on it.
For Intrigue, if we take only one, Security Procedures is the most delicate right now, so we should repeat it. If we take a second one with the Free Action, with all the trouble stirring in the North, let's pick Even Deeper Secrets.
For Personal, God's Eyes if we use the Double Down here. If we use it for War Runes, Let's train our children in Martial, since we're about to take them to war. For the second action, one Uplift for Hygiene and Prevention Procedures.
For the Free Action, If there's a Diplomacy action to solve the matter with the Tallharts and co, I agree we should take it. If not, let's use the free action to get a second Intrigue action.
For Stewardship, I say Logging Camps and Wolf Walls. With the Civil Service no longer understaffed after hiring Citadel Acolytes, Expand the Schools isn't urgent. Plus, if we're finally building a fleet, Wolf Walls is cheaper. And it's also the last action to 'complete' Wintertown, and thus it can give us something.
For Learning, I'd like to make sure that Copy Books, is necessary to pass the Merchant's Quest before we bring more attention from the Citadel onto us. We should ask the QM.
For Piety, I think Aggressive Recruiting is too expensive to do while we need to spend on fleets. War Runes is 4 turns, so if we want to have it before the war, we should either take it now or forget it till after the war. If we do take it this turn, I think we should use the Double Down on it.
For Intrigue, if we take only one, Security Procedures is the most delicate right now, so we should repeat it. If we take a second one with the Free Action, with all the trouble stirring in the North, let's pick Even Deeper Secrets.
For Personal, God's Eyes if we use the Double Down here. If we use it for War Runes, Let's train our children in Martial, since we're about to take them to war. For the second action, one Uplift for Hygiene and Prevention Procedures.
Useless and dangerous? I can imagine knowledge being useless, and I can imagine knowledge being dangerous, but somehow I think the Venn Diagram for knowledge that is both is most likely the empty set.
Indeed, chemistry is one of the most useful and needful knowledge to expand if we are to uplift the economy. Chemical industry is a major factor in the industrial revolution. It's also needful for the next major improvement in agriculture, which is still the primary limiting factor in a nation's wealth and power. Improvements in fertilizer is needful for agriculture to improve yields.
There is no evidence that there are elements missing in this world, nor is the fact that the intermediate steps needed to discover the Periodic Table of Elements have not yet been achieved a problem. The whole point of uplifting is that we are skipping many of the intermediate steps to achieve some of the more important advances. Understanding the material world is a vital step forward. It's also something that we cannot effectively implement by ourselves through our own efforts. As you rightly point out, using our own uplift actions would take several hundred years to fully exploit our simple knowledge of chemistry, mainly because we are missing so many of the intermediate steps.
Thus the reasonable action is to record the information we know, such as the Periodic Table of Elements, and the concept of atoms, molecules, exothermic and endothermic reactions, and spread that knowledge out so that other people can investigate and discover the intermediate steps to fully take advantage of it. This is an instance where hoarding knowledge is not beneficial even to ourselves, as the benefits of spreading the knowledge and the resulting growth in the world economy will be much greater than what we could get through hoarding.
The mere fact that a book purporting to ancient knowledge of things that people don't know now is enough to generate an effort to prove the proposed theories. And that effort will kick start the Renaissance, which we want to have happen.
Medicine has a similar scenario. Of course they don't know about blood types, nor will they be able to prove it for a long time, that's precisely why it's such valuable knowledge to preserve and distribute.
Mathmatics is slightly different, in that it is foundational knowledge that isn't obviously helpful, but is useful for further investigations of knowledge. Thus again, it's better to spread the knowledge to specialists, and let them develop the practical uses for it rather than trying to do it all our self. The most likely place it will be used for is architecture, logistics, and engineering (especially military engineering). I expect that some of the Braavosi we end up hiring will find it very interesting, so I think it's a perfectly good thing to introduce.
I'd also like to take at lest some of these actions before we get on a boat and risk dying.
It's true this will bring attention from the Citadel, but I think that is unavoidable at this point, unless we abandon plans to do any further uplifting. By proporting to be knowledge from an ancient civilization (like the Empire of the Dawn) it should at least divert some of that attention to the place that we claim it came from.
Why do we need food? We are still at Medium Supplies, there does not seem to be an immediate danger from lack of food...
Trashing? Do you mean threshing machines? I suppose that would be beneficial, though not as much as a textile mill.
Hmm... I thought Expanding Schools would also help with the Merchant's Quest. Good point on needing to ask instead of assuming things though.
@notbirdofprey For the Merchant's Quest for establishing a market for books, which actions will help with that the most?
Expanding Schools?
Copy Books?
Or the creation of new books using Uplift actions (about things like Mathematics, Chemistry, etc) that can then be copied and sold?
All those will definitely help, and they will unlock new actions which will also help. I'm also going to be adding another action which you can use for this.
@Elder Haman
About chemistry,i wanted to say that is useless right now bc simply they dont have the smallest idea of what we may speak in that book.On earth chemistry evolved from alchemy,many people supported and practiced alchemy.Here it seem that alchemy is a secretive thing with maesters not even studying a little about it.They had several thousands years to discover the basic principles of chemistry but they didnt.They use some chemistry but they dont understand why it works and how it works.
The same with medical books.They forbid human dissection (who we can approve of after we introduce a medical school to be done on criminals condemned to death) so they dont understand how the human body works.They are able to deal with surface wounds(cuts from swords and some arrow wounds) and some small fractures but anything more is beyond them.Knowing about blood types is useless if you dont understant the role of the blood in the body and how it moves around plus without the mean to determine the blood type and lets not forget about transfusion who it is totally unknown you dont have any uses for blood types.Also without a type of microscope to seem germs and bacteria talking about them will result in maesters consider us a madman.
And the most important thing:the maesters dont seem to research and improve.They teach the same thing generation after generation without trying to research new things and ideas.It seem that innovation and independent thinking is frown at if not forbiden expecially for acolites(an acolite with different ideas then the maesters may face expulsion at best) so we need a school were we encourage innovation,research and independent thinking before we try to introduce this things.We truly need a university.
About mathematics,i think that they have the basic of it so we dont need to introduce anything new.
For medicine we can introduce better hygiene practice during the medical procedures plus the use of alchool on wounds plus various other ideas that are easy to use and dont need any complicated explication(washing hands,boiling things before using them in medical procedures,a better hygiene for the populace with the use of saunas encouraged,keeping wounds clean and better procedures and hygiene during birthing procedures with the use of saunas encouraged during birth bc it is a sterile room,making sure to dispose of human and animal waste and trash in a better fashion,maybe in covered pits ready to use in agriculture,washing hands and various clothes and bed shets more often,bathe more regulary with the use of saunas,boiling animal milk before consumption expecialky for babies use,keeping a clean house expecially the room of the baby,washing hands before eathing and food preparation with a better hygiene during food preparation and the widespread use of soap plus the use of quarantine fore sick peoples). You have no idea how this simple things can impact the rate of survival of people and decrease the rate at which diseas appear and spread.
About chemistry,i wanted to say that is useless right now bc simply they dont have the smallest idea of what we may speak in that book.On earth chemistry evolved from alchemy,many people supported and practiced alchemy.Here it seem that alchemy is a secretive thing with maesters not even studying a little about it.They had several thousands years to discover the basic principles of chemistry but they didnt.They use some chemistry but they dont understand why it works and how it works.
The same with medical books.They forbid human dissection (who we can approve of after we introduce a medical school to be done on criminals condemned to death) so they dont understand how the human body works.They are able to deal with surface wounds(cuts from swords and some arrow wounds) and some small fractures but anything more is beyond them.Knowing about blood types is useless if you dont understant the role of the blood in the body and how it moves around plus without the mean to determine the blood type and lets not forget about transfusion who it is totally unknown you dont have any uses for blood types.Also without a type of microscope to seem germs and bacteria talking about them will result in maesters consider us a madman.
And the most important thing:the maesters dont seem to research and improve.They teach the same thing generation after generation without trying to research new things and ideas.It seem that innovation and independent thinking is frown at if not forbiden expecially for acolites(an acolite with different ideas then the maesters may face expulsion at best) so we need a school were we encourage innovation,research and independent thinking before we try to introduce this things.We truly need a university.
About mathematics,i think that they have the basic of it so we dont need to introduce anything new.
For medicine we can introduce better hygiene practice during the medical procedures plus the use of alchool on wounds plus various other ideas that are easy to use and dont need any complicated explication(washing hands,boiling things before using them in medical procedures,a better hygiene for the populace with the use of saunas encouraged,keeping wounds clean and better procedures and hygiene during birthing procedures with the use of saunas encouraged during birth bc it is a sterile room,making sure to dispose of human and animal waste and trash in a better fashion,maybe in covered pits ready to use in agriculture,washing hands and various clothes and bed shets more often,bathe more regulary with the use of saunas,boiling animal milk before consumption expecialky for babies use,keeping a clean house expecially the room of the baby,washing hands before eathing and food preparation with a better hygiene during food preparation and the widespread use of soap plus the use of quarantine fore sick peoples). You have no idea how this simple things can impact the rate of survival of people and decrease the rate at which diseas appear and spread.
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This is not true. First of all, there is the whole order of Alchemists. Second, maesters do study chemistry/alchemy, that's what the brass link stands for.
Once again you have imposed your own views on this quest in place of what the QM has already stated.
This is also canonically false, since the source material clearly identifies corpse dissection as part of the learning process for maesters who earn a silver link (healing). Go reread the prolouge fo Feast of Crows if you don't believe me.
This is also clearly false, as the maesters explicitly desire to research and improve. They simply forbid certain aspects of research. For example they forbid the dissection of living humans. Also, by the time of the main book series there is a clear disapproval of magic research, but that likely has not yet developed among current maesters, and now probably will not due to the prevelance of magic in this AU.
There is no evidence that Calculus has yet been discovered. Trigonometry is less certain, but not harmful at least. I find it strange that you are so dismissive of maesters abilities elsewhere, yet you seem to think they have discovered calculus.
That statement is incredibly rude and arrogant. Perhaps you don't realize you are doing so, but you have a habit of making your points in a rather insulting way. You might want to try and change that if you want people to interact with your posts.
Also, I have previously responded to your claims about the lack of hygiene knowledge in this world, which you have continued to ignore, so why should I repeat myself?
Something to keep in mind is that threshing grain made up about a quarter of all agricultural labor before it was mechanized, and agricultural labor in turn made up something like 90% of all work. So in terms of labor-saving and long-term impact threshing machines would beat out mechanical looms or the like by a huge margin, because that's an extremely large amount of man-hours that the populace could then put to use in other ways.
That said, whatever the faults of his post and reasoning, @Cgce does have a point in that it'd generally be a better idea to set up and reform institutions and organizations that can perform uplift-work in the long term, rather than just try to keep introducing technologies and inventions one by one, even if we try and do it in the form of books. Reforming the government so it's more centralized and we can better affect the whole of the North with our actions in order to support its development, but also perform those reforms in a way that doesn't trigger revolts from our vassals who fear losing their power. Building up the general education system, and then setting up dedicated research and development facilities and organizations. That sort of thing.
I think we should compile a list of Uplifts that have been proposed and decide an order to do them. Other than threshing machines, mechanical looms, hygiene protocols, fertilizer and glass, what else has been mentioned?
For the fertilizer in particular, I was wondering if there is some kind of organic mix of manure with other things that can be done without an advance chemical infrastructure. That should have a much lower DC and be much more feasible to be done at the moment.
For the fertilizer in particular, I was wondering if there is some kind of organic mix of manure with other things that can be done without an advance chemical infrastructure. That should have a much lower DC and be much more feasible to be done at the moment.
That's a good point, though overstated. Agriculture is only 90% of work if you either don't count "women's work" of carding, spinning, and weaving, or count it as "agricultural," (in which case threshing is not 25% of the labor). Still, threshing is an important manpower sink where improvements would help greatly. Though I think the textile mill is still superior, because that opens the path to an import of raw materials (cotton, flax) and the export of manufactured materials (clothing). It would potentially make the North of Westeros the equivalent of New England in the historical timeline. It's also potentially something that could continue during winter months rather than the way agricultural work has to hibernate sometimes in the North.
Well, I agree that establishing institutions is the way to go. But I see creating and spreading the more basic foundational knowledge as a major element of that. Books on some of those basics seems like a natural way to do that, as it would attract larger numbers of "thinkers" to Wintertown, and then that would enable the eventual establishment of something like a college. In particular a book on the Periodic Table of Elements might serve as bait to attract some of the order of Alchemists, which might prove useful in establishing a college that will rival the Citadel.
That's a good idea.
Proposed Uplifts:
Textile mill: This is something we took as a bonus, so we actually know how textile mills work, so it's a relatively ease uplift for us.
Threshing Machine: We have agricultural experience, but unfortunately probably did not have a horse driven version of this. We would understand the mechanics pretty well, but we'd have to do a lot of adaptation. Still, something likely to have an easier time of doing than some others.
Something to uplift Health: The main thing here is that I'm not sure we know clearly what the current circumstances are. The maesters at least are well aware of the need to wash hands, and cleaning wounds with alcohol. What are the sewer systems like? At least some places seem to have decent sewers, and refuse control. @notbirdofprey Can you give us some more detail on the public health knowledge and practices of the current time? I'm sure that we have some insight as to where circumstances differ from what we know of modern health practices.
Books on certain foundational knowledge: Mathematics, Chemistry, Biology, others? The idea being to introduce knowledge far beyond current knowledge in a plausibly deniable way and generate more discussion and interest around those topics outside our personal uplift efforts. Mathematics is likely to effect things like engineering, architecture (flow rates for a sewer system?), and logistics. Chemistry is about developing material science. Biology develops lots of potentially interesting things, including medicine.
Glass: Mainly proposed since the North would benefit from greenhouses. Myr is known to produce glass currently, and probably Sunglass under the Targaryens, so it might be possible to gain this from trade, or by recruiting the potential knowledge. Note that we might not have the kind of sand needed to produce glass.
Fertilizer: This would require the production of large amounts of various chemicals to move beyond the simple compost heap that I am certain is already in use. Chemicals needed would include:
Ammonia, the Haber process is probably beyond us because of the need for high pressure chambers. I'd have to do more research on it, but this probably means developing sources of Sodium Nitrate, Hydrogen, quicklime, and other nitrates. Possibly saltpeter?
Phosphorus, which means developing a source of sulfuric acid, one of the major chemicals used in any chemical industry. In medieval times it was called oil of vitriol, and so knowledge of how to produce it might very well already exist. Some of the acolytes we hired around the first turn ought to know how to produce it, though perhaps not at scale.
Potassium, which is probably best reached through the production of potash, so something we ought to be able to do as a by product of logging. Also, related to saltpeter, which is potassium nitrate.
Gunpowder: 10% Sulfur, 15% Charcoal, and 75% Saltpeter. Since two of these things are needed for the fertilizer route, and the other is common, we can probably synergize gunpowder creation with developing fertilizer. Saltpeter can be produced using saltpeter beds (urine and dung with straw).
Is there anything else to go on the list?
As long as we generally agree that a huge amount of man-hours is tied up in threshing, I'm not really that interested in quibbling over the exact numbers. The reason I think it's preferable to the textile mill, though, is that the man-hours that would be freed up could be used in a wide variety of different ways; people might use that time to go to one of our schools and learn how to read or write, start taking up other work such as mining, woodcutting, etc, take up (late) apprenticeships as smiths, carpenters, potters, and whatnot, and so on, and so forth.
Basically, the textile mill improves one specific aspect of our economy (textile production), whereas a threshing machine would improve the prosperity of our economy as a whole, as well as potentially giving us more flexibility in what other projects we might want to pursue using the freed-up manpower.
I disagree with your approach here. Passing on what knowledge we have is something we should do when possible, yeah, but that would ultimately still leave the North/Westeros reliant on us, whereas - at least in my view - the purpose of setting up certain institutions/organizations would be to give people the necessary tools to quickly uplift themselves even without us if necessary.
There's also inevitably going to be holes in our character's knowledge. For example, you mentioned writing books about things like medicine or mathematics, but since those weren't necessarily part of our characters' areas of expertise, how much would he actually know?
For example, if we set up a medical university and research facility, people studying and researching there will likely discover things like blood groups, germs, and the like on their own eventually. On the flipside, if we just go and write a book about blood groups, germs, etc and publish it, it's possible that it might just end up in the collection of the Citadel and otherwise have little impact on Westeros as a whole, due to the Maester's elitist/hoarding attitude.
As such I consider it much more important to lay the general foundations that will lead to the accumulation of knowledge - schools and universities, public libraries, printing presses, a postal system, etc. Things that allow our populace to both educate itself, and share information and knowledge more readily and easily.
(Sorry if I'm being a bit unclear; it's getting rather late for me.)
So, I have two major projects due in the next couple weeks, so I will be going on a brief hiatus. I was going to make the turn post then do that, but on reflection, that's a terrible idea. This should only be for 2-3 weeks max, although there may be more coming depending on how summer courses go.
Also, on healthcare: it varies widely. Green Men tend to have some knowledge and experience, enough to be generally aware of hygiene and basic healthcare. I already mentioned the skill of maesters, and in the Wintertown area, that's rubbed off to an extent on the various other healers for a few reasons. Village healers, barbers, and apothecaries all vary greatly in skill, and backward ideas and practices exist probably everywhere. Even some maesters probably think handwashing is unhealthy, although it has not come up with any you have spoken with.
Medicine is generally purely herbal and focused on mitigating symptoms - there are no antibiotics or vaccines, for instance.
Also, on healthcare: it varies widely. Green Men tend to have some knowledge and experience, enough to be generally aware of hygiene and basic healthcare. I already mentioned the skill of maesters, and in the Wintertown area, that's rubbed off to an extent on the various other healers for a few reasons. Village healers, barbers, and apothecaries all vary greatly in skill, and backward ideas and practices exist probably everywhere. Even some maesters probably think handwashing is unhealthy, although it has not come up with any you have spoken with.
Medicine is generally purely herbal and focused on mitigating symptoms - there are no antibiotics or vaccines, for instance.
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I have no idea how when we don't even have a microscope yet to try and find the virus cells.
Genolution
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The first smallpox vaccines were just scraping off cowpox scabs for innoculation. While smallpox is sort of the best disease to learn about vaccination from what with the other closely related diseases with much milder symptoms that nonetheless share antibody responses, it is entirely possible to develop vaccines before microscopy. Even now we can't see viruses optically. The first development of smallpox innoculation occurred in Song China nearly a thousand years before the development of electron microscopy. The modern conception of vaccination developed by Edward Jenning was two hundred years before electron microscopes. The next vaccines to be developed, cholera and anthrax, are bacteria which were first studied by van Leeuwanhoek with 17th century level technology. The vaccines for the mumps, rubella, and measles viruses were developed during the early 20th century before electron microscopy, and the polio vaccine was developed in the 1950s before widespread use of electron microscopes. You don't need to see the pathogen to start developing vaccines.
edit: of course, we can't assume the diseases in Planetos are the same as on Earth.
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First i am very sorry if i appear rude in my comments.English is not my first language and i have problems in expresing my ideas.
Second i am against books on various subjects bc 95% of westeros people dont have the slightest idea about what we may talk in those books.The only people who will understand a little are the maesters and they will decide what is avaible to general public and when.
With a school to teach various subjects we will increase the number of people who have acces to the information and relay less on the maesters.
About the hygiene and health practice,i wanted this information to be told directly to the people,not to the maesters,bc many of the ideas are for the day to day life,and how to keep someone from getting a diseas.
About human dissection,maesters like medieval doctors probably dissect 1 or 2 corpses during the entire period of theyer studies,in rest they use books with imagines drawn to learn.This plus the fact that a maester focus on multiple subjects during his studies made me to believe that the average maester is more like a jack of all trades then a specialist so i dont know how good or willing they are to studie and research after they leave the citadel.Plus the fact that many choose this career either forced by theier family or bc of lack of option made me to believe that they arent very smart or very big thinkers or researchers.They appear to be smart and learned men bc they know a bunch of information but they are unable to think criticaly,to research or to innovate.
About the schools,i think that we should start a craft school.Older craftsmen(carpenters,blacksmith,farmers and the like) can be used to teach classes to people who are interested in learning a new job.The biggest problem in medieval times was the lack of craftsmen,with a normal craftsman only having several aporetince during a lifetime a promoting very few to the title of master,and the ones who are taken as apprentiece are either taken based on conection or money so no the best one.And the ones who are promoted are ussualy done on relation or money.
So a craft school will allow us to increase the number of craftsmen in a short time.We dont need perfect craftmen,we need craftmen who know the job,they dont need to be genius at theier job,we need the number.In time from them the ones who are trully good will shine alone,the rest will be put on less important jobs.For example a truly good blacksmith can be hired at the castle,will the average one can be sent to a village or something.
Second i am against books on various subjects bc 95% of westeros people dont have the slightest idea about what we may talk in those books.The only people who will understand a little are the maesters and they will decide what is avaible to general public and when.
With a school to teach various subjects we will increase the number of people who have acces to the information and relay less on the maesters.
About the hygiene and health practice,i wanted this information to be told directly to the people,not to the maesters,bc many of the ideas are for the day to day life,and how to keep someone from getting a diseas.
About human dissection,maesters like medieval doctors probably dissect 1 or 2 corpses during the entire period of theyer studies,in rest they use books with imagines drawn to learn.This plus the fact that a maester focus on multiple subjects during his studies made me to believe that the average maester is more like a jack of all trades then a specialist so i dont know how good or willing they are to studie and research after they leave the citadel.Plus the fact that many choose this career either forced by theier family or bc of lack of option made me to believe that they arent very smart or very big thinkers or researchers.They appear to be smart and learned men bc they know a bunch of information but they are unable to think criticaly,to research or to innovate.
About the schools,i think that we should start a craft school.Older craftsmen(carpenters,blacksmith,farmers and the like) can be used to teach classes to people who are interested in learning a new job.The biggest problem in medieval times was the lack of craftsmen,with a normal craftsman only having several aporetince during a lifetime a promoting very few to the title of master,and the ones who are taken as apprentiece are either taken based on conection or money so no the best one.And the ones who are promoted are ussualy done on relation or money.
So a craft school will allow us to increase the number of craftsmen in a short time.We dont need perfect craftmen,we need craftmen who know the job,they dont need to be genius at theier job,we need the number.In time from them the ones who are trully good will shine alone,the rest will be put on less important jobs.For example a truly good blacksmith can be hired at the castle,will the average one can be sent to a village or something.
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Trade schools could be quite useful, especially if we do introduce major labor-saving technologies like threshing machines, or winnowing barns/machines, since they'd allow us to relatively easily train a lot of the newly freed-up workers as craftsmen.
That said, my thinking in terms of uplifting is more in broad terms; a sort of checklist of requirements that we need, or at least should, meet in order to make our uplift-efforts easier and ideally self-sustaining and -accelerating.
The first is to improve the ability of our subjects to access and process information. Which, in simple terms, just means spreading basic literacy and math far and wide, so they can read books and letters, keep ledgers, and the like. This would increase the usefulness of any of any books we - or others - write on various subjects, since more people would be able to acquire the information contained in those books and potentially make use of it.
We've already gotten started on this with the school in Winterfell/-town, but there's still a lot to do to spread this through the rest of our domain, nevermind the rest of the North.
The second is to improve the ability of our subjects to record and distribute information. In practical terms, this means increasing the available supply and decreasing the cost of writing materials and products. This would enhance the ability of our subjects to pass on any discoveries they might make it to others.
We've already gotten started on this with the printing press, which severely reduces the amount of labor necessary to mass-produce writing (though we could reduce this amount even further through the introduction of movable type), but another major factor in the cost of books and the like is the materials. Right now the primary writing materials are likely parchment (made from animal skins), and paper (made from linen rags), neither of which is particularly cheap. What would be helpful here would be to introduce the process of making paper directly from wood and other plant fibers (essentially skipping the linen-making process, in case of hemp, flax, etc), reducing both labor and raw material costs.
Beyond that, however, it would also be very useful to introduce and implement a decent postal system and service, since this would allow for a much easier exchange and distribution of information and knowledge - scholars or craftsmen exchanging ideas via letters, for example - as well as public libraries.
The third thing to do would be to actively encourage the dissemination of information. Unlike the first two, this is much more of a social, economic, and administrative problem than a technological one. Right now there are very strong incentives to monopolize knowledge, as doing so will generally give the individual or organization in possession of said knowledge a socio-economic advantage. If there are a hundred smiths, but only one has the knowledge on how to reforge Valyrian Steel, then this knowledge gives him a massive advantage over the remaining 99.
There's not really one certain way to deal with this, so we'd have to approach this from multiple angles. Setting up dedicated schools for certain trades, professions, and the like is one way; while (grand-)masters would almost certainly still withhold certain "secret/special techniques, recipes, etc" they developed for themselves, it would encourage the accumulation of a lot of basic information and teachings for a given trade, and ensure that apprentices and journeymen can build a wide foundation with the knowledge available, whereas the traditional apprentice-master method could potentially result in holes in the apprentices' knowledge.
Another, relatively simple but also somewhat limited and specific approach would be to offer rewards and recognition for certain innovative achievements, which we can then distribute as we wish. For example, offering a substantial reward (money, minor title, etc) for the first individual or group who can develop a method to produce glass suitable for the construction of greenhouses. Over time, we could then potentially develop this into somewhat of a regular thing where we hand out rewards and recognition for innovative achievements in various fields every X years or so - think something like the Nobel Prize.
The final angle I can currently think of in this regard would be the introduction of patents; while not without issues of its own, it would provide at least some incentive for people and organizations to make any secret or special knowledge they are monopolizing available to the public.
The fourth and final checkmark would then be the establishment of dedicated research and development facilities and organizations funded by the crown, whose members and employees would have the task of continually working on innovations within a specific field, such as agriculture, metallurgy, chemistry, medicine, or the like.
This is arguably both the easiest and hardest of the four; the easiest in the sense that technically we just need to spend some money and actions in order to establish such facilities/organizations, and the hardest in the sense that they require all three other checkmarks in order to work optimally.
That said, my thinking in terms of uplifting is more in broad terms; a sort of checklist of requirements that we need, or at least should, meet in order to make our uplift-efforts easier and ideally self-sustaining and -accelerating.
The first is to improve the ability of our subjects to access and process information. Which, in simple terms, just means spreading basic literacy and math far and wide, so they can read books and letters, keep ledgers, and the like. This would increase the usefulness of any of any books we - or others - write on various subjects, since more people would be able to acquire the information contained in those books and potentially make use of it.
We've already gotten started on this with the school in Winterfell/-town, but there's still a lot to do to spread this through the rest of our domain, nevermind the rest of the North.
The second is to improve the ability of our subjects to record and distribute information. In practical terms, this means increasing the available supply and decreasing the cost of writing materials and products. This would enhance the ability of our subjects to pass on any discoveries they might make it to others.
We've already gotten started on this with the printing press, which severely reduces the amount of labor necessary to mass-produce writing (though we could reduce this amount even further through the introduction of movable type), but another major factor in the cost of books and the like is the materials. Right now the primary writing materials are likely parchment (made from animal skins), and paper (made from linen rags), neither of which is particularly cheap. What would be helpful here would be to introduce the process of making paper directly from wood and other plant fibers (essentially skipping the linen-making process, in case of hemp, flax, etc), reducing both labor and raw material costs.
Beyond that, however, it would also be very useful to introduce and implement a decent postal system and service, since this would allow for a much easier exchange and distribution of information and knowledge - scholars or craftsmen exchanging ideas via letters, for example - as well as public libraries.
The third thing to do would be to actively encourage the dissemination of information. Unlike the first two, this is much more of a social, economic, and administrative problem than a technological one. Right now there are very strong incentives to monopolize knowledge, as doing so will generally give the individual or organization in possession of said knowledge a socio-economic advantage. If there are a hundred smiths, but only one has the knowledge on how to reforge Valyrian Steel, then this knowledge gives him a massive advantage over the remaining 99.
There's not really one certain way to deal with this, so we'd have to approach this from multiple angles. Setting up dedicated schools for certain trades, professions, and the like is one way; while (grand-)masters would almost certainly still withhold certain "secret/special techniques, recipes, etc" they developed for themselves, it would encourage the accumulation of a lot of basic information and teachings for a given trade, and ensure that apprentices and journeymen can build a wide foundation with the knowledge available, whereas the traditional apprentice-master method could potentially result in holes in the apprentices' knowledge.
Another, relatively simple but also somewhat limited and specific approach would be to offer rewards and recognition for certain innovative achievements, which we can then distribute as we wish. For example, offering a substantial reward (money, minor title, etc) for the first individual or group who can develop a method to produce glass suitable for the construction of greenhouses. Over time, we could then potentially develop this into somewhat of a regular thing where we hand out rewards and recognition for innovative achievements in various fields every X years or so - think something like the Nobel Prize.
The final angle I can currently think of in this regard would be the introduction of patents; while not without issues of its own, it would provide at least some incentive for people and organizations to make any secret or special knowledge they are monopolizing available to the public.
The fourth and final checkmark would then be the establishment of dedicated research and development facilities and organizations funded by the crown, whose members and employees would have the task of continually working on innovations within a specific field, such as agriculture, metallurgy, chemistry, medicine, or the like.
This is arguably both the easiest and hardest of the four; the easiest in the sense that technically we just need to spend some money and actions in order to establish such facilities/organizations, and the hardest in the sense that they require all three other checkmarks in order to work optimally.
Well, the same argument can be made for textile mills. Clothing is a necessity, just as much as food (particularly in a cold climate), and absorbs an enormous amount labor. Of course, the labor relieved is primarily women rather than men, but that can have it's own advantages. It is not unknown in some societies where clothing is provided by trade for women to become society's repository of knowledge. The American West is a good example of this, since clothing could be provided for cheaply through trade, while male labor was in high demand for farming and ranching, girls often were able to attend a formal school longer than boys, and became the sources of knowledge in society. Leading to women dominating school teaching in the American west in a way not always seen elsewhere.
It would be a way to increase the status of women, without threatening male areas of dominance, while also circumventing the maester organization, since the Citadel does not accept women.
And again, as pointed out before, textile mills allow the creation of an import export economy, which feeds into the ports, roads, and other transportation systems, and increases our links to other parts of the world. There is a reason that watermills for grinding grain did not kick off the industrial revoultion. It was the textile mill that did that.
Err... discovering blood groups and other things like the periodic table of elements would require centuries of work by those institutions. Why shouldn't we just provide it in a book since we already have that information? Knowledge is not benefited by ignorance. The more people know, the better those institutions will be able to function. Not to mention the easier it will be to attract people to found and run those institutions.
The mere fact that we already know so much about mathematics, chemistry, and biology that is unknown to Westeros, just based on our generalist knowledge is a sign of how important that information is. It's what we consider foundational generalist knowledge that any educated person should know. Just take blood types for example, the mere fact that we know that is enough to leapfrog medical reaserch. Instead of trying to figure out why blood can usually not be shared, but that sometimes it can, instead healers would know that there are certain types of blood (just as there are different hair colors) and that the body attacks those that are registered as foreign. That's a huge help in increasing basic knowledge of how the human body works.
I don't understand, why are people continuing to talk as if the choice is between institutions and books? And why do people keep suggesting that I'm opposed to institutions when I repeatedly say that I'm not, and I'm the one pushing to Expand Schools next turn? Book and institutions are not alternatives, they are actions that compliment each other. I mean, how in the world can you have institutions of learning without textbooks? Are you suggesting that we found institutions using incomplete, incorrect, and misleading information from current sources instead of providing accurate and modern information that we have available in our memories?
I'm not opposed to institutions. Why are you opposed to books?
Your arguments above make no sense. I f we print the boooks, and distribute them, then how are the maesters going to control who reads it?
If you want successful institutions then you are going to need books.
You are imposing your own views of maesters in contradition to canon. Maesters who have a silver link must perform several dissections. They are closer to Renaissance doctors than medieval ones. Different Maesters have different links, and so know different things. Besides which, this argument means you ought to be in favor of a book on biology so that medical knowledge is not limited to maesters.
You are suggesting a radical shift in the way craftsmanship works, the guilds are not going to like it. The number of apprentices a master takes on tends to depend on how much work is available for his shop. Prosperous craftsmen will often have multiple apprentices, and will often train dozens of journeymen. The limits are not nearly so great as you suggest. It's not time that prevent masters from training a lot of apprentices, it's money that means they can't afford to - which is why they charge for it.
I think it would be better to work within the existing apprentice system. Most likely by working with the guilds and providing some sort of royal sponsoring of apprentices who demonstrate skill. That might also mean having a "school" for young men who want to try their hand at a craft and providing them with basic instructions so that they can begin as an apprentice who knows a bit. Those that show particular promise would get a royal sponsorship as an apprentice to a master. Probably arrange the school to be staffed by journeymen who have either just left their apprenticeship (and so need to save money to establish their own shop) or perhaps as a test for journeymen who want to become masters?
Basically leverage the current guild system to achieve the same end rather than trying to build something new from scratch and likely opposed by the guilds.
This basic instruction should also probably include the scientific method. This requires reducing the amount of labor needed, either by men (threshing machine) or women (textile mill). I think it will be easier however to get girls into these schools rather than boys.
We might want to go ahead and distribute our printing press and thereby gain the benefits of others being able to print like we can. I had been holding off in the hope that we could convince the Citadel to send us copies of their books in exchange for sending them the printing press. Maybe we could accelerate that effort?
A postal service is a good idea. Either we could charter a postal service, or we could attach it to the Road Wardens. I think I'd prefer to charter it though. Of course, continuing to expand the road network would be necessary.
Rewards for certain achievements could be useful. I think particularly in chemistry, in which we could create a book (purporting to be the knowledge of an older civilization) containing as much knowledge on chemistry as we have, and then basically provide a reward to whoever can succeed in recreating something in the book. It wouldn't be that strange for a king to do something like that. That would be a way for us to try and push forward the fertilizer industry without having to spend so many actions on it ourself.
Patents are the gold standard here though it will be difficult to establish it. Perhaps we can sell it to the guilds as a way to ensure masters continue to get a benefit from techniques they discover? Basically the master teaches the method or knowledge to the guild which then collects rents from other members of the guild who use the knowledge and then provides the majority of that rent to the master (or his heirs) that discovered the method? That would leverage the fact that the guilds already exist and that a major part of their effort is to prevent the unauthorized practice of their craft.
True, this is why I tend to see creating the books as the first step on the path to eventually founding these kinds of organizations.
Could you maybe give us the new options in learning and piety, and any other new options so that we can spend the next few weeks debating the merits of them compared to the current options?
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The argument can only be made if you insist that the amount of labor invested into textile weaving is the same as the amount of labor invested into grain-threshing, which I'd be rather doubtful about, since it contradicts pretty much everything I've heard or read about pre-industrial labor distribution.
This frankly sounds like a rather fallacious argument, because it implies that we wouldn't see similar effects anyway if we revolutionized other areas of our economy. Yes, if we develop and build textile mills we'll likely see an increase in import-export trade as merchants come and go to sell fibers and buy cloth. And if we develop and build a foundry that can mass-produce steel, we'll see an increase in import-export trade as merchants come and go to sell ore and buy ingots. If we introduce gunpowder and begin blast-mining, merchants will come to buy ore and sell other things. If we introduce new techniques that allow for the mass-production of boats and ships, merchants will come to sell us timber and buy other things. And so on, and so forth.
In short; if we introduce something that results in a major change to supply and demand, we'll see an uptick in trade as merchants react accordingly; that's how the market economy works.
It's pretty much the same with regards to roads and other forms of transportations. Yes, textile mills will increase a demand for better transportation infrastructure due to the increased amount of materials that need to be moved from a to be, but again it's the same for many other areas as well. If we increase the amount of ore that our mines can produce by introducing technologies such as blast-mining, mine carts, and the like, we'll see a similar increase as more ore (and, correspondingly, more fuel) needs to be transported to smelters, more ingots need to be transported to metalworkers, and the resulting goods need to be transported to customers. Same spiel in regards to other goods and resources again as well.
On the flipside, this also means that improved transportation infrastructure and technology benefits pretty much every aspect of the economy. We've already made a fairly good start with the introduction of concrete roads, with the only thing left to do actually building them, but it might also be a good idea to look into things like the King road drag, for the creation of improved dirt road in areas where building concrete roads might not be economical (or at least urgent), and the wagonway as a predecessor of railway for routes that see a particularly high amount of traffic.
As for your claim that the textile mill started the industrial revolution; that omits and simplifies so many preceding technological, and in some cases social or administrative, developments...
The textile mill is one of the earliest symptoms of the industrial revolution, and quite possibly helped speed it up, yes. But would it have been possible to design, build, and - most importantly - mass-produce a machine as complex as this without preceding developments in mining, smelting and metalworking reducing the cost of so many complex parts? Without the preceding agricultural revolution - itself a result of various technological and social developments - resulting in a large influx of both unskilled workers (in the form of previous farm workers), and raw materials such as flax, hemp, wool, cotton, and the like? Without preceding developments in printing, education, and engineering allowing for inventors capable of designing such complex machines? Without the many other factors I'm undoubtedly forgetting right now?
If those many developments and prerequisites are missing, then there will be no industrial revolution, and right now we simply don't meet those requirements yet.
It's a question of priorities and applicability/immediate usefulness. If we're writing a book on blood groups or the periodic table, then we're not working on setting up the institutions that could perform such research on their own, or writing books introducing technologies for agriculture, mining, metalworking, mechanical engineering, and the like.
As such, we need to consider and compare what we would stand to gain. Let's say we go and write that book on blood types, for example; how does this help us/our kingdom within the next 5-10 in-game years or so? The answer would likely be "fairly little", because even if the average village healer knew about blood types, it's likely he wouldn't be able to put this knowledge to any practical use, since the necessary equipment to perform blood transfusions would be either outright technologically unfeasible, or likely far beyond the means of the average village healer.
By contrast, using that time to set up R&D organizations and facilities would improve our action economy, since they could either potentially develop innovations on their own, meaning we do not have to spend actions to do so, or because we can create a brief outline of an idea/technology and leave it to them to figure out the details, instead of having to work out everything ourselves. This in turn would allow us to introduce more technologies overall within the same span of time.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't write books containing our theoretical knowledge at all, but it does mean that - at least as far as I'm concerned - such books are a lot lower on our list of priorities compared to topics with more immediate practical applications.
IIRC the Maesters already use the scientific method - or at least something close to it. But either way; no. If the scientific method needs to be introduced, it would be as part of our efforts to establish research and development organizations and facilities as outlined under point four, alongside statistical data gathering and analysis, and possibly as part of the higher educational facilities under point three.
It's worth keeping in mind that while the Citadel's probably the most prominent center of learning in ASOIAF/GOT, it can't really be the only one. The Free Cities/Essos seems every bit as technologically advanced as Westeros, and in some cases potentially even more so. Myr is known for its advanced glassworking, for example, and IIRC Joffrey's crossbow was also some advanced model from one of the Free Cities. So, they'll have to have their own guilds, colleges, universities, and whatnot.
As such, while we shouldn't make enemies of the Citadel/Maesters unnecessarily, we also shouldn't think of them as the only source of knowledge available to us; there's nothing stopping us from sending out trading expeditions to visit the cities of Essos and seek out books to purchase.
As for the printing press; IIRC we just recently sent one (or the plans for one) to the queen of the Stormlands, and secrets/technological developments in general have a sort of "expiration date", in the sense that they'll eventually become known and more widespread. So I'm perfectly fine with trading or selling printing presses in order to get as much out of our current advantage as possible, while we're currently still the only one with the full knowledge of how to make and operate them.
Expanding/improving the road/transportation network is a good idea in general, since as I said above it would benefit pretty much every aspect of our economy and the kingdom.
The main problem I see with this is the feudal nature of our realm; we can build roads within our own domain all we want, but if we want to, for example, build a road connecting the White Knife with the Weeping Water or the Broken Branch, we'll have to convince or order the various lords through whose domains the road would pass, which would cost time, effort, and influence.
It's part of the reason why I think another one of our mid- to long-term goals should be governmental reforms for the North; to make it much easier to implement improvement such as concrete roads, schools, and the like throughout the entire realm.
Subverting (sorta) the guilds for that was more or less what I had in mind. The main problem I can see with that is the potential of monopolies forming, as we get kingdom and potentially continent-spanning guilds of carpenters, blacksmiths, and whatnot.
I'd be more inclined towards something like inviting the masters of various crafts guilds, laying out the issue - ie, we want to spread knowledge around since it benefits the realm as a whole, they want to hoard knowledge since it benefits their members - and then trying to work out some sort of compromise that hopefully achieves our overall aim while preventing such monopolies.
As for the rewards, I was thinking less in terms of offering ready-made solutions and asking people to make it work, since that frankly doesn't save us much time, and more in terms of offering rewards and recognition for solving problems we want solved.
In your example, for example, we would have to write that book on chemistry, first, before we can ask people to try and develop fertilizer with it, in which case we could probably just add the extra work to develop the fertilizer ourselves since that'd probably easier/faster than writing the rest of the book.
Instead, we'd announce a task/issue we want solved and let people come up with their own solutions. This would not only let us save time, it would potentially also net us several different solutions that we can make use of, possibly including ones we might not have thought of ourselves.
For example, if we announce that we offer a reward for those who develop new tools or techniques to reduce the cost of building and maintaining roads of all kinds, there might be one person who's somewhat technically inclined and develops a device similar to the fresno scraper, a second might lack the engineering skills and be more inclined towards simpler solutions and come up with something akin to the King road drag in order to cheaply make and maintain simple dirt roads, and a third might be a stonemason or miner who notices how easily small stones seem to interlock when you put weight on them, and propose something similar to macadam roads.
It only requires us to draft and publish the announcement, and after rewarding all three we'd have three more road-construction methods we can make use of.
Going back to your example, rather than writing a book on chemistry and requesting someone try to use it to develop fertilizer, we could just announce that we are offering a reward for anyone who develops a method to better fertilize fields for the growing of crops. Some alchemists might then come up with fertilizers like blood/bone/fish meal, but we might also see something like a primitive liquid manure spreader design from it.
And in my opinion it continues to be a case of trying to put the cart in front of the horse.
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Uhhh... homespun clothing manufacture is almost certainly more time consuming than grain threshing. Clothing manufacture was quite literally done year round, and often absorbed much of a woman's time and effort. Only cooking and cleaning taking up more time. Threshing would be closer to food preservation in time consumption. I would need access to first hand accounts to demonstrate this, which are not available in full on the internet, but if you know anything about the process of making homespun it's pretty obvious.
I can only speculate that your readings on pre-industrial labor distribution are focused exclusively on male labor, as there are many more accounts of that available than there are of women's work (which was very often done "off the books"). Estimating threshing as 25% of agricultural labor simply cannot not be taking into account female labor in cooking, cleaning, food preservation, and clothing manufacture.
There is nothing wrong with that focus, it's driven by the availability of source material, as long as you remember that women's labor is not being counted in those accounts.
Well, actually, we probably would not see the same results from something like a foundry, as we would most likely simply expand our own local mines instead of importing iron. Even more so in the case of ships as we have one of the largest sources of lumber on the continent. However, that does not go to your main point, which is that by developing our economy in any area we ought to see an increase in trade, etc. That is true, but only increases in production of food or clothing are going see the establishment of the massive amount of trade I am talking about. Other products are simply not sizable enough as part of the economy to have the same impact.
Everyone needs food. Everyone need clothing. Not as many need boats or even steel. I suppose home construction might be considered something of similar importance, but it's not really something you can export.
Food and clothing are where it is at for the current economy. And being in the North we will always be at a competitive disadvantage in food production. (That doesn't mean that improvements to agriculture are unimportant, just that it's not going to fuel a food export economy like the Reach could get going). Textile mills are the obvious choice. Again the historical comparison is Great Britain. Where the textile mill was essentially what drove Great Britain's industrial revolution, and what empowered it to dominate the world, despite not having the best climate or geography for such domination.
Yes, I've suggested that a connection between Cerwyn (on the White Knife) and Torrhen's Lake (on the Rillwater) would be the best location for this, thereby connecting the east with the west.
This argument is questioning the entire premise of this quest. Which is that of introducing modern knowledge into Westeros so as to allow us to skip ahead over many of the preceding steps, and institute the Industrial Revolution early. You are basically arguing that that is pointless, and that we have to go through all the intermediate steps anyway.
We have already introduced improved farming methods so as to get us above sustenance. We have started a school to teach people basic math and how to read. The next step is to introduce a large labor saving device so as to allow more people to go to the school. The textile mill is a massive labor saving device, that will free large numbers of peasant girls to attend school and learn how to read and do math. It will also begin developing a massive trade good complex that will allow us to spread our influence, and generate a large amount of wealth to fund the next steps, like expanding the schools, expanding the roads, and other major public works.
Obviously we will need to continue the efforts to expand the industrial revolution speedily, we've been discussing most of those. One of which will be to introduce additional agricultural labor saving devices such as a threshing machine so that boys will also be able to attend school (though likely more intermittently as they will continue to be pulled out for harvest and planting seasons).
I highlighted that section because I still don't get this way of thinking. If we are going to spend the time and effort to establish say a school of medicine, then based on what reasoning would you argue that we shouldn't also spend the time to create a book to provide that school with the most accurate and modern knowledge possible? I mean, establishing such a school will most likely take multiple seasons, but writing a book that contains most of our (limited) knowledge of biology and medicine can probably be done within a season. It's like arguing that you want to build a castle wall, but don't want to spend the extra time to put crenelations on that castle wall because you want to save time. But in doing so you basically cripple the castle wall in performing it's purpose.
Any institution we create is not going to suddenly "discover" the periodic table of elements. That's an effort that took centuries of effort to discover. Why would we ever create a school and then not provide them with knowledge that will save them centuries of effort? We can just spend a single personal action and provide it to the school so that they can focus on using that knowledge to create actual practical things for us to use.
I can accept an argument that medicine is a lower priority than chemistry, but not that an institution is worthwhile investing in without also giving that institution the knowledge it needs to maximize success.
Which is another point, how can you think that the periodic table of elements is somehow unimportant knowledge? How exactly are we supposed to create an effective chemical industry without spending enormous amounts of personal actions on it unless we provide others with the basics that would allow them to develop chemistry themselves?
You keep saying that you want to save actions, but from my viewpoint you are the one who is proposing an inefficient use of actions, by suggesting that we should not spread the advantage we have (knowledge), but insist on others having to figure it all out themselves.
Are... you actually arguing that we should not make the scientific method a part of basic education? Seriously?
It's not like it takes up a lot of time to teach, and it would then provide the general population with the framework for them to develop their own research and discover things on their own. I thought that was what you wanted?
Why would you limit the scientific method to research facilities? That's like arguing that we shouldn't teach the scientific method in grade school, but only graduate students should be learning it.
I don't even understand why you would oppose this. I thought this a place where we would both agree.
Ahh... except we can improve the roads in the full part of our realm. I even asked about it a couple turns ago for the DCs on an issue command for the creation of a road between Cerwyn (on the White Knife) and Torrhen's Lake. Another location discussed was to improve the road between Long Lake and Castle Black.
There is no reason that we can't this. Nor is there any reason I can see a local lord complaining about us if we do it directly instead of issuing a command. I mean, why would a lord complain about us improving the road inside his lands?
That's... I don't even understand how you can think that asking people to develop fertilizer without providing them with basic chemistry will result in anything close to actual modern fertilizer in usefulness. Nor how you can think that developing the fertilizer our self would be faster than writing a book.
Developing fertilizer would take at least one Personal action (which might as well be used to create the basic chemistry book - it's the same thing in a different form), and then at least anywhere from 4 to 5 Learning actions - at minimum, some of which would be multi-seasonal, followed by the Stewardship actions needed to introduce the use of it. It might even require Diplomatic and Stewardship actions to create the infrastructure for us to implement the Learning actions. Depends on how complex the QM wants to make it.
Compare this to taking one Personal action to create a book on chemistry, in which we will undoubtedly include our knowledge of how to create the necessary chemicals for fertilizer, followed by one Diplomacy action to create a reward for those that develop the chemicals/fertilizers listed in our book - I don't know exactly how the QM will implement that mechanically, my guess would be that he'd periodically roll a research attempt by others at a much higher DC than we would face ourselves, and so the creation of those chemicals and fertilizers would take more seasons to complete than if we did it on our own - but we wouldn't have to spend multiple Learning actions on it, so in terms of action economy we'd come out far better.
Or to take another example, we use a personal action to create a book on Mathematics (including trigonometry), and could then use a diplomacy action for the creation of various carpenter tools that use that trigonometry and makes that usable by the common carpenter. See here an example of what trigonometry is used for in carpentry, the tools of a carpenter's square being something we'd probably knows exists, but not exactly how to create it. So leave it to the carpenters guild and some mathematicians (either Braavosi or maester) to figure it out.
If you dump an average city boy on an island and tell him to build a boat, he won't have a clue how to do it, and will have to spend a lot of effort figuring things out with a lot of failure. But take that same average city boy on an island, and give him a book on how to construct primitive boats, and he is going to perform much, much better. I don't understand why you think that the first approach is better.
@Elder Haman
I see that the book writing is something very important for you but i have a question:right now if we write those books(if our main character have the needed knowledged to write them,can you or any average person with a college education write those books from memory without any reference materials at all) who will benefit from them?Our normal people doesnt know how to read or write,those who do dont have the necesary education or time for something like this and the maester either wont belive what we write bc of lack of evidence and bc it goes agaisnt years of tradition and of what it is accepted(think about europe,how much time it took for various new ideas to be accepted) or if they believ it,they will keep the knowledge and decide how to use it.So our books did nothing to help anyone.
But if we start a superior school(like a college or something) we can encourage people to research new things and we may give them some clues for the direction of the research.Like this is a lot better then some books written with something we barely remember or understand.
And about your fertilizer idea we may do this a lot simpler:we gather all the human and animal waste and deposit in covered pits and we use it as a fertilizer.No need for chemical fertilizer with our level of agriculture.
And water powered looms take people to operate to a industrial scale,people we dont have.Those people will work only at those jobs and we simply cant afford this right now.But any improvement in agriculture that save manepower and works is a gods sends for the north.
I see that the book writing is something very important for you but i have a question:right now if we write those books(if our main character have the needed knowledged to write them,can you or any average person with a college education write those books from memory without any reference materials at all) who will benefit from them?Our normal people doesnt know how to read or write,those who do dont have the necesary education or time for something like this and the maester either wont belive what we write bc of lack of evidence and bc it goes agaisnt years of tradition and of what it is accepted(think about europe,how much time it took for various new ideas to be accepted) or if they believ it,they will keep the knowledge and decide how to use it.So our books did nothing to help anyone.
But if we start a superior school(like a college or something) we can encourage people to research new things and we may give them some clues for the direction of the research.Like this is a lot better then some books written with something we barely remember or understand.
And about your fertilizer idea we may do this a lot simpler:we gather all the human and animal waste and deposit in covered pits and we use it as a fertilizer.No need for chemical fertilizer with our level of agriculture.
And water powered looms take people to operate to a industrial scale,people we dont have.Those people will work only at those jobs and we simply cant afford this right now.But any improvement in agriculture that save manepower and works is a gods sends for the north.