KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Cool!
I'll have another Grungi scene with those at some point.
I'm at Gencon this week so I'm not sure when I'll be able to do so.
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The Fall of Arnor - A LOTR GSRPG
- Thread starter Sidheach
- Start date
Cool!
I'll have another Grungi scene with those at some point.
I'm at Gencon this week so I'm not sure when I'll be able to do so.
- Location
- Shady Sands New Vegas
Under the influence of the Witch King, can the entire host of Angmar overcome the Orc's hatred of moving in the daylight? Wonder if they're doing most of their traveling by day or by night.
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
As I noted, the host with the Witch King are traveling under sorcerous clouds. Elsewhere, the usual hate of daylight applies.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Apparently the witch king can cloud out the sun enough that the orcs dont mind.
BTW @Sidheach is Arthedain Active? Cuz it seems like it's a nation that needs to be played actively
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
Arthedain is active, it's doing stuff behind the scenes for now.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Cool. I just haven't seen commando post is all
- Location
- Shady Sands New Vegas
Just for a little flavor, I'm wondering, is Ruthron probably young or old by the reckoning of the Dunedain?
I'm trying to think if he would have a family as well.
I'm trying to think if he would have a family as well.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
No, it's an old Elvish manse from the Second Age, dates back to before the Fall of Eregion at the hands of Sauron and has long since been picked clean.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
Ok cool. Anything weird about it that makes it hard to find?
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
Where you are right now? Nothing, it's entirely likely that other people have camped out there before. That said, the people who want to settle in Hollin want to go further in.
This is where you are right now, where a tributary runs into the Greyflood. The Stoors who think Hollin is a fine place to settle want to sail up that tributary and settle somewhere along there.
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@jankmaster98 , what will/would you do if your King commands you to lower your banners? He is your liege after all, considering your relatively fragile status, interfering within the Rhudaur civil war just a few years after Arthedain has thrown them off might be an ill-fated excursion.
- Location
- Shady Sands New Vegas
Well, at the very least, this is prior to Glorfindel's Prophecy so who knows if the Witch King can be defeated by the hand of man/hobbit 
- Location
- Shady Sands New Vegas
I assume that I have a level of autonomy more than the average vassal. Something Akin to the Prince of Dol Amroth. Being blunt isn't the only thing I can do. I have ideas.
You are welcomed to tryWell, at the very least, this is prior to Glorfindel's Prophecy so who knows if the Witch King can be defeated by the hand of man/hobbit
- Location
- Shady Sands New Vegas
We'll load the catapults full of Swords of Westernese. Or whatever the heck Merry's Dagger was made of. And all the catapult operators will be women.You are welcomed to try
Elrond precedes Galadriel in the succession to High King- both because he's male and because he comes from the more senior line of Fingolfin. He could have legitimately claimed the title when Gil-Galad died, but he didn't want to.
He's also Thingol's heir as well, of course.
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- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
Yeah, the thing about Elrond is that he doesn't crave that sort of power. He's largely content with ruling Rivendell and having his own nice little corner of Middle Earth, the kind of power and responsibility that comes with ruling over the Noldor just isn't something that he desires.
Yeah, there are also few enough Noldor that the position is rather defunct anyway. Certainly none of the Noldor that are around seen to have an issue with his authority, and he seems to naturally defer to Galadriel due to their personal relationship anyway.
Anyway, I'll probably send you some sort of plans tonight. I'm going to Mexico next week so digging in for a siege kind of suits my posting opportunities for the next little while.
- Location
- USA
So who is the witch king sieging?
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The claims could certainly be disputed since they both rely on the maternal line, while Finarfin was the brother of Fingolfin and the last in the family. Probably a mix of both the claim not being strong enough, and Elrond simply not desiring it, plus I'd wager a good portion of the Noldor reside in Lindon, and I don't think Cirdan would have submitted to Elrond's authority.
The reason for my thinking is rooted in that I dispute Elrond's position as Dior's grandson has much weight, since Dior was the King of Doriath, but not the Lord of Beleriand as Thingol was. Cirdan ruled Falas, and did not submit to Dior's authority as he likely did not see him as a direct heir to Thingol, thus making the title of Lord of Beleriand rather defunct, like I said, Elves follow leaders and not titles. So Elrond wouldn't really have much to gain in either title, while for Galadriel it'd be an ego boost since she always desired her own realm.
If one discounts the elves in Valinor there is no dispute that could be made under any tradition of succession we've any evidence of. That they are both from the maternal line is immaterial as Elrond's descent is more recent (the female in question being daughter of a High King rather than Granddaughter). The only way Galadriel could preceded him is under some sort of seniority system wherein she'd also precede Gil-Galad.
The line of succession is actually pretty clear, had Elrond wanted the crown: Gil-Galad-Elrond-Elrohir/Elladan-Arwen-Galadriel-Celebrian
After Celebrian, assuming her children are dead (since they precede her) it'd probably be the descendants of Elros, from a strictly legal standpoint. Wouldn't happen though, of course. More likely it'd go to some prominent Noldo- maybe Gildor if he is actually vaguely related to the house of Finrod in some way.
I've not seen a source for Cirdan not submitting to Dior's authority, but circumstances probably made that a moot point- Beleriand was almost overrun by the time Dior took the throne and Cirdan himself had been forced to flee the mainland for Balas thirty years previously. Again, Dior's actual succession to Thingol is pretty damn clear.
I don't know why you'd argue 'Elves follow leaders and not titles'- can't say there's much evidence of this other than Elrond himself. There are a glut of elven kings, princes, lords, and assorted high poobahs throughout the texts.
All that said, Elrond himself seems to have shown no desire whatsoever to claim any title, and would be extremely unlikely to claim dominance over Cirdan and Galadriel in any case given the gulf in age between them and him, and their role in his early life.
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We've never seen an Elven queen, despite vast houses and the varying few claimants from the numerous deaths across the years. Elwing did not take the title of her father, even though she lived in the Havens of Sirion for 32 years, and the title of Lord of Beleriand wasn't in Dior's repertoire. It was a defunct title as you said, and Cirdan heeded no attention to it. His service at the time was holding the elven race together, following Turgon's direction in using his mariners to seek out Valinor, and raising Gil-Galad as well as taking Earendil as his apprentice.
If Elwing allowed the title of Kingship over Doriath to wither, what would be the point of Elrond claiming to be Thingol's heir? By the time he was even able, basically all the elves left in Middle Earth were serving Gil-Galad, and the Sindar that didn't, did not respect the Noldor, what Elrond would be identified as. It took Galadriel and Celeborn many centuries to build up that respect.
Elrond gained a lot of prominence over the second age and was basically promoted to Gil-Galad's right hand man, and could have possibly claimed the title at the death of Sauron, but the political considerations at the time were fraught. Even though Elrond may have been the legal candidate to do so, it probably would have pissed off Galadriel, who had been there since the crossing of the Helcaraxë, wanted a title, and was in fairly good terms with the lords of the silvan elves, both of whom had just lost their Kings. This would create a possible conflict of which the Elves couldn't suffer and thankfully nothing like that arose.
I say that Elves follow leaders and not Kings, because, Maedhros surrendered the title to Fingolfin as a sign of good faith, even though he was the clear claimant. He still controlled nearly half of all the Noldor despite this, and even led his final forces to attack the Mouths of Sirion, where Cirdan and Gil-Galad had established as one of the last holdings of the Elves, Earendil (the rightful High King of the Noldor under your definition, considering that Idril chose not to stake the claim of her father's crown, it would have fell to him logically) having led these specific Havens under Cirdan's/Gil-Galad's protection. Maedhros doing it, and his followers sticking with him until the end, flies in the face of Titles truly mattering to the Elves.
Consider that the Avari, who made up most of the original elves, chose to stay in the Twilight despite the Vala's calling, and that most of the Teleri simply stayed behind despite Olwe being their King after Thingol's disappearance. Cirdan had a great bond of friendship with the Noldor ever since they saved the Falathrim, and despite Thingol banning Quenya in his lands and never assisting them, Cirdan hosted many Noldorin in the Havens during the conflicts and came to their aid as well, we see this in that the Falathrim likely make up all of the Sindarin elves in Lindon, while the Sindarin from Doriath went on with Oropher and Amdir to found their own kingdoms. And even then, Amdir and Oropher came to the Silvan elves, who likely had their own leaders already, but loved the Sindarin so much that they crowned them Kings.
Perhaps I should rephrase my statement. After the events of the First Age, the rule of Prophet-Kings of the Elves was pretty much over, the Kinslayings and the death of Thingol ensured that. Celebrimbor generally did his own thing as did Galadriel and Celeborn, the Sindarin Kings didn't respect Gil-Galad and Elrond was raised by Maglor, even though Gil-Galad trusted him, I doubt Cirdan would have submitted to his authority either if he crowned himself King, considering he only did so out of reverence to the memory of Turgon and Finrod, his beloved friends, and trying to preserve what he perceived the last hope of the race.
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I should stress that this is incredibly complex and it's fairly hard to say what could have been or couldn't, and that my interpretations are merely my own.
Bolded the relevant part.
Suffice it to say I just don't see the evidence to back up your assumptions, and the topic's not really relevant anyway. Agree to disagree.