Remove ads

The College of Jewels (Magical Academy Quest)

Reader mode
As a note. If we do go with Glimpse, our best bet would obviously be to grab a single branch and advance it as far as we can. The branch should have the following characteristics, in this order:
  1. The Branch should extend as far as possible. If a branch is a "dead end" - i.e. we end up buying up till the point where our highest bought spell is no longer a prerequisite for anything else - then we have to backtrack to get to something that actually increases our peak rank, and that would be a waste.
  2. The Branch should be easy to unlock, learning wise. Having prerequisite spells isn't a problem, since those contribute to rank, but having prerequisite knowledge is, since not knowing enough to advance our active spell branch halts our advancement in EVERY branch of DS, whereas not knowing enough to unlock some other spell just means that we don't yet get access to that one spell.
  3. The branch should take advantage of our current points; doing otherwise would be a waste. A small waste, but a waste nevertheless. Right now, our top investments stand at:
    • Planar Portal Size -> 1+3+5=9
    • Teleport -> 1+5=6
    • Elemental Planar Portal 1 -> 5=5
Honestly, I would want to have a tutoring session with the TA and try to get a feel for the DS spell tree as a whole so we can make this decision. After all, the choice of spells is a precisely an IC thing, so why shouldn't we have our adviser help up with it IC?
 
PrimalShadow said:
Honestly, I would want to have a tutoring session with the TA and try to get a feel for the DS spell tree as a whole so we can make this decision. After all, the choice of spells is a precisely an IC thing, so why shouldn't we have our adviser help up with it IC?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We should ask her what the most complex and difficult branch of dimensional SCIENCE is. I beat it is time manipulation. Which should include spells like haste and time stop.
 
Last edited:
fictionfan said:
The math has convinced me.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The math, if you look at it closely, says that it'll have a crippling effect on most of the disciplines and be detrimental unless we heavily specialize.

So far we have branched into Generic, Enchantment, Elemental magic and Counter-magic without even touching Spirit. We'll likely want to designate some of them as dead ends to justify the investment.

fictionfan said:
Also I just realized that DS can be used to achieve the same effects as both elementalism and spirits. We just have to make shaped stable elemental protals and protals to the spirit realms.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...and what part of DS emulates elemental protections? I am voting for the trait, but I really wouldn't want us making decisions on incorrect assumptions that something can be substituted for something else without losing anything.


I still don't understand the effects fully, by the way. What is the rank of our highest DS spell? How do we improve the rank of that spell, and what does it affect, except Counterspelling?

For example, we have invested 20 points in the Planar Portal. Does it mean that it has Rank 20? We will have all other spells - currently Elemental Planar Portal - at rank 20. What does it mean, compared to its current rank 5?

PrimalShadow said:
So in total, we've got 5 branches so far. This means that our investments in DS will make our investments right now scale faster by a faster of five, though it might go higher if we pick up branches, or might go lower as branches close or go in directions that we think are less valuable than the written cost. Anyway, if we stick with the 5x number getting +25 points in DS would effectively net us +125 points in DS, so that is roughly the break-even point at which this matches the immediate bonus of 100 points we would get with the other vote option. We currently have 8 points in DS right now, is it would take another 17 - and I think we gain about 2-3 points per day, so that means it'll take about a week.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is not obvious to me. Say you invest 10 points in Planar Portal and buy "Planar Portal Size 3 (10)". How does it equate a 50 point investment? WIth 50 points you can buy Planar Creation 2-3 (10) and a lot of other things:
- Planar Creation 2 (5)
- Planar Creation 3 (10): You can now open portals to a Somewhere that is identical to a location with which you are familiar and spend a great deal of time. Details which you do not know or cannot recall perfectly such as the inside of books cannot be copied. Requires Planar Creation 2.
- Planar Control 2 (5)
- Planar Control 3 (10): You can exert influence on places you have opened a portal to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How can you do that with only a 10 point investment? Do 10 points invested in Size give us better control over the location to which the Portal opens?

How does spell rank correlate to real spell improvements? Unless this question is answered, I don't think such broad statements can be made.

Basically, assume we have Planar Portal at Rank 100... does it mean we can open it broader and have more control over it without buying the proper upgrades? If not, then what good is it?
 
Last edited:
fictionfan said:
The part where we can surround ourself with selective protals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am sure that if we ever find ourselves in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or near a portal to one, we will surround ourselves with plenty of portals before we fry to a crisp.

The heat is not a magic missile, it comes from all directions.

I would understand jumping into a portal of our own and waiting the danger out, but those aren't really equivalents.
 
Nevill said:
I am sure that if we ever find ourselves in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or near a portal to one, we will surround ourselves with plenty of portals before we fry to a crisp.

The heat is not a magic missile, it comes from all directions.

I would understand jumping into a portal of our own and waiting the danger out, but those aren't really equivalents.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We could also phase out of the dimension. Sky is the limit. We might even make a somewhere that we always say in comfort well our project goes around.

Or we could always be a bit out of phase with reality and only let it affect us as we wish.
 
Last edited:
[X] A flash of brilliance- gain +100 points in dimensional science
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.

The cost-doubling is an element that may go away, if we take the TA's trait's exact wording to be precisely what Saphira might get.

Alternatively, the cost-doubling is something to offset the many fewer number of points Saphira will have to invest in DS.
 
Nevill said:
This is not obvious to me. Say you invest 10 points in Planar Portal and buy "Planar Portal Size 3 (10)". How does it equate a 50 point investment?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Portal size 3 gets us to a rank of 19. In addition to the Portal Size upgrade, we also get Planar Creation 3, and probably Planar Control 2-3 as soon as we get around to unlocking those. It doesn't quite get us Elemental Planar Portal 2 or Planar Teleport 2 - those are a touch more expensive, so the extra value we would get from those is "locked" until we raise our peak rank a bit more.

Nevill said:
How does spell rank correlate to real spell improvements? Unless this question is answered, I don't think such broad statements can be made.

Basically, assume we have Planar Portal at Rank 100... does it mean we can open it broader and have more control over it without buying the proper upgrades? If not, then what good is it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Great point, and that is one of my main worries with taking Glimpse. (You will note that despite talking about it extensively, I haven't actually voted for it yet.)
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Portal size 3 gets us to a rank of 19. In addition to the Portal Size upgrade, we also get Planar Creation 3, and probably Planar Control 2-3 as soon as we get around to unlocking those. It doesn't quite get us Elemental Planar Portal 2 or Planar Teleport 2 - those are a touch more expensive, so the extra value we would get from those is "locked" until we raise our peak rank a bit more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, I think I see what you assume the trait does. You think that increasing a rank of the spell allows us to receive all upgrades that could be bought with these points alongside other branches. So if you advance Planar Portal along the Size branch, you will eventually invest enough points into it and get Elemental Planar Portal 2 and other shinies automatically.

I've reread the discussion and found this statement that I somehow missed earlier:
Wander said:
Basically, that bit of the trait mostly means that all your dimensional science spells are harder to countermagic. That's the primary use for getting to treat a spell as though it's a higher rank than it actually is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What I see in the description is that our new spells that we just learned will be of higher rank than they otherwise would have been, i.e. harder to dispel and easier on upgrade requirements. We still need to buy all the upgrades and upgrade the branches separately, investing a lot of points alongside different branches.

Edit:
You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The question is, what effect does this part have on learning new spells? 'Gain access to all spells you know of' can mean several things.
 
Last edited:
Nevill said:
What I see in the description is that our new spells that we just learned will be of higher rank than they otherwise would have been, i.e. harder to dispel and easier on upgrade requirements.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The point you are quoting is talking about "that bit of the trait" - namely, the part about rank. That isn't the whole trait - if it was, I don't see why we would want to even consider it.

Nevill said:
We still need to buy all the upgrades and upgrade the branches separately, investing a lot of points alongside different branches.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The trait states that "You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell". What did you think this part meant, since you don't think it gets us upgrades alongside different branches?
 
PrimalShadow said:
What did you think this part meant, since you don't think it gets us upgrades alongside different branches?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We better ask @Wander, but I thought it is something along the lines of 'pick spells automatically as long as you are aware of them and they are of low enough rank'. Basically, learning spells at a glance if they are simple. Since there is a mention of Genius and all.
 
I'm honestly kind of hung up on the name. A glimpse of truth just sounds so much more profound than a flash of brilliance. It's influencing my reasoning process in a negative manner...
 
Nevill said:
We better ask @Wander, but I thought it is something along the lines of 'pick spells automatically as long as you are aware of them and they are of low enough rank'. Basically, learning spells at a glance if they are simple. Since there is a mention of Genius and all.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How is that different from what you said I thought (and apparently disagreed with)?
Nevill said:
increasing a rank of the spell allows us to receive all upgrades that could be bought with these points alongside other branches
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Right now, our Planar Portal is at rank 1+3+5=9. We don't know Planar Control II, but its rank is only 1+3+3=7, so if we take Glimpse we should be able to use Planar Control II automatically.

(Actually, @Wander - is the cost of 3 on Planar Control II accurate, or was that a typo? Judging by other costs I would have expected it to be 5.)
 
I, uh, didn't consider Planar Control I and Planar Control II different spells, so it didn't cross my mind that we would gain an upgrade in the latter with the trait? I mean, it says 'gain access to spells', but we already know the spell, we just improve it?

Actually, is Planar Control a spell at all? I thought it's a skill that corresponds to the Planar Portal spell. I am a bit confused on the topic of what constitutes a 'spell' for the purposes of the trait. :confused:
 
[X] A flash of brilliance- gain +100 points in dimensional science
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.
 
[X] A flash of brilliance- gain +100 points to Dimensional Science.

[X] Kill Blackreach.

I don't like the idea of limiting ourselves strictly to one discipline. Easier to just take the bonus and go from there rather than give up everything other than portals.

Plus, the bit about 'all spells being available under your highest spell rank' doesn't necessarily mean 'automatically learned'. It could just as easily mean they're available for purchase even if they normally wouldn't be. Like, being able to buy Planar Control 4 even though we don't have Planar Control 1,2, or 3. We might still have to buy the spells rather than just acquiring them automatically.

And I say kill Blackreach, go for the least impact rather than invite potential riots by banishing The Pact for a while.
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.

@PrimalShadow convinced me on Witness to Genius. Banishing the pact makes the most sense as it opens the door for other revolutionary actors.
 
@Wander : there seems to be a huge amount of confusion about what Witness to Genius does which is really affecting the voting.
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.
 
[X] A glimpse of truth- gain the trait Witness to Genius: You gain access to all dimensional science spells you know of with a rank less than or equal to the rank of your highest ranked dimensional science spell, and treat them as though they were that rank for all purposes except casting speed. Costs for non dimensional science magic are doubled.
[X] Banish the Pact from this plane of existence. It will return, but while it is gone, the City Council's control over the hearts and minds of Diadem will be dangerously weakened.

Elemental Portal alone can duplicate most combat applications of elements. Countermagic is useful, but we can still buy it -- just at a higher cost. And what we get for that is an effectively comprehensive grasp of Dimensional Science for a small point investment. We could be throwing around infernoes (possibly literally) sooner than the Elemental students can even come close.

I would like clarification on whether enchanting is considered Dimensional Science, since it's being taught in Dimensional Science class.

Either way, I haven't really been in favor of a strong Dimensional Science specialization up to now, but this is too good to pass up. We've already seen it can mimic elemental attacks, and what it lacks is fine control. Dimensional Science gives us that fine control of just about everything else, though -- from small objects to the fabric of spacetime. I highly suspect it is a worthy trade. The flavor text of understanding a truth that conventional mages are blind to is only icing on the cake.
 
Something worth knowing might be whether we will ever actually reach the end of a given school of magic because if we do being able to branch out might be critical. Another question is whether we might be able to gain the TA's version of this trait.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top