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Terra Invicta: Alien Invasion Grand Strategy from the makers of Long War
- Thread starter tankdrop24
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- Estonia
A fleet is only allowed to select the Accept option on engagement if they're on their action cooldown. Fighting or successfully escaping from another fleet puts them on cooldown. Bidding dV to escape or engaging in combat maneuvers doesn't change a fleet's orbit or ongoing movement trajectory on the Solar System view in any way. Yes, it's incredibly stupid and not how pincer maneuvers in space would work at all. The huge problem here, really, is that a remotely realistic "pincer maneuver" would require two fleets to approach from radically different trajectories requiring radically different dV expenditure. But right now two fleets can approach from the exact same angle and it's somehow just assumed that the second intercepting fleet will magically have the correct approach vector, enough dV, and enough acceleration to catch the enemy fleet on their escape vector from the first fleet.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
PSA, the devs have posted notes for an upcoming patch that includes some massive changes:
The most critical one is that space research is getting a massive nerf:
Another that confuses me is this one:
The third one that stood out to me is:
This does not seem to even be at the point of opt-in yet, but the research change is big enough I thought it would be good to forewarn everyone about.
The most critical one is that space research is getting a massive nerf:
I don't know if the upgraded version is going from 1 MC to 2 now, or if it is getting a "buff" of being the same MC cost as the Tier 2 version, but that definitely changes how things work before you enter open war with the aliens.
Another that confuses me is this one:
Which I just plain do not understand, and I don't know if this is a buff or nerf to map painting.
The third one that stood out to me is:
Which sounds like a massive defensive boost in terrestrial combat.
This does not seem to even be at the point of opt-in yet, but the research change is big enough I thought it would be good to forewarn everyone about.
That seems to pretty much ruin the modules. I might just replace all of them with research institutes or something.
I feel like the developers have a really skewed idea of how usable modules with MC costs are.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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Actually in this case the reasoning they are giving is directly "we found you guys were cheesing the research speed too much with them this cheap", so ruining the things seems to be the idea.
Although I do think they could use a bit of a more granular approach to them if they are going to be a common cost. 1 MC being 100 research, half a basic mine, and also a single cheap ship makes things a bit dubious given how expensive each point is to get. I suspect that is something that needs quite a bit of tuning, as currently the automated bases are also quite useless due to their high cost.
Nerfing is clearly intended, but ruining doesn't make sense. I guess you could look at it as forcing half of them to be converted to MC? But 50 research per slot plus no perks and high expense, I dunno if it can be worth it.
The automated stations (and the way the university was made worthless before but maybe useful again now) are part of why I have that bigger theory that the devs just don't get MC.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
They upped the production from 50 to 100 a while back.
The automated stations do show they don't quite get the value of a MC over other resources.
Yes, and now you need to pair each one with a mission control building, so it is back to 50 per slot, bought as 100 per 2 slots.
67ish if you're using T3 mission control.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
Ah, I don't think of it that way typically. MC production modules are in a separate mental category to me, as they increase a cap rather than provide a resource. Not to mention the cost of them.
In fact the upkeep cost of an MC module makes that comparison far worse.
The thing is that the alien hate for MC usage is the thing that concerns me more. Every 3 of them is one less station for other projects you can fit under the threat cap. Given that tier 2 dedicated research facilities still produce 10 science along with their boost it might be the case that Mercury ends up full of energy science boosters instead because the big ticket projects are mostly of the energy category.
MC is much the same as power, except that you don't have to generate and consume in the same place.
I did mention the upkeep if you look.
I have a total disregard for alien hate since in my game that became irretrievable quite early. The notion of getting to endgame tech while the aliens don't notice is not on my radar at all.
Note that the 'soft' cap for research area multipliers is not very soft. I wouldn't bother stacking deep with the relatively expensive energy facilities rather than building something with less upkeep if just generating research points.
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E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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Just downloaded the validation branch with the changes. I had the extra MC it turns out for the facilities I currently own, and I can confirm that the tier 3 version did get a "buff" to have the same MC cost as the tier 2.
I can also clarify that the transfer tool now has a little message of "you probably can intercept" or "you probably can't intercept" with no greater details on why or why not.
I can also clarify that the transfer tool now has a little message of "you probably can intercept" or "you probably can't intercept" with no greater details on why or why not.
So those are kinda okay at a net yield of 133 science per T3 slot, probably?
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
Yes, Tier 3 are still 200 science for a single MC, at the same place where you can spend money to get 2 MC from another module.
However, checking things the tier 2 has been nerfed beyond just the cost increase. Research Campus modules now only produce 80 instead of 100.
... so it is only 8 tier 2 modules for the specific science types to get the same income as you need to pay a MC for, instead of 10.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
So, playing the game I've managed to kill an Assault Carrier with just a trio of those Gloria class I posted earlier, along with a pair of lighter alien craft that were with it.
... also played an alternate timeline where that one was allowed to land, but the massive alien assault fleet inbound on earth was still coming so I will stick with the save where I have 40 exotics.
However, while checking out possible future designs I discovered two things about my madness spreadsheet:
1) My resource cost for radiators was going by tonnage instead of by waste heat, which was giving a massively higher value.
2) Reactor costs were an order of magnitude too high because the data file units for resources are 1/10th that of the ingame resource values.
I have corrected that both in my personal file and also in the google version I linked earlier.
... also played an alternate timeline where that one was allowed to land, but the massive alien assault fleet inbound on earth was still coming so I will stick with the save where I have 40 exotics.
However, while checking out possible future designs I discovered two things about my madness spreadsheet:
1) My resource cost for radiators was going by tonnage instead of by waste heat, which was giving a massively higher value.
2) Reactor costs were an order of magnitude too high because the data file units for resources are 1/10th that of the ingame resource values.
I have corrected that both in my personal file and also in the google version I linked earlier.
Huh, I'm impressed. I wouldn't have expected six such small railguns (or the small laser cannons) to be enough there.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
Oh the most recent version doesn't use railguns anymore. They have a pair of Mk2 Coil Batteries, and the only reason I don't have Mk3 is I am trying to avoid exotics use as much as possible. (Still researched the Mk3 for defense stations, which as far as I am aware don't need exotics for their weapons.)
The two Light Green Arc Laser Cannon are more to help the Point Defense Arc Laser Turrets with point defense, and also to protect other ships that are farther away.
The design might get a fourth upgrade when I develop Phased Array Lasers to use those and Advanced Laser Engines, but it is more likely to be replaced as it was made before I had access to Fission compatible Spikers and you can't add either hydrogen storage or spiker upgrades to a design that did not have them before.
... Although if you can replace coil with plasma like you can replace rail with coil I might consider that change as well.
As I said other places, nerfing space research does nothing to address cheese.
Because the "India, population 9 billion (and $40k GDP per capita)" mega cheese is still available and now almost mandatory if you don't wish to intentionally play severely sub optimal.
You will need 1 MC station around Mercury for less than two full research stations at T2. T3 may be more optimal per station slot usage but looks to need extreme support. As "not before Galilean moons".
Because the "India, population 9 billion (and $40k GDP per capita)" mega cheese is still available and now almost mandatory if you don't wish to intentionally play severely sub optimal.
You will need 1 MC station around Mercury for less than two full research stations at T2. T3 may be more optimal per station slot usage but looks to need extreme support. As "not before Galilean moons".
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
So, a strategy for alien doom fleets, at least earlier on:
- Make a sacrificial gunship.
- Send it up against the massive doom fleet alone, proceed to have most of the alien fleet's missile supply emptied onto the gunship.
- Forget that you put your battleship fleet at the station they send the now depleted fleet against.
- Full stop the battleships using the added distance from the validation branch patch, make sure they are turned back around by the time the lead elements hit.
- Blow up most of the alien fleet using both LDA and battleship guns with only a single loss because the aliens have half their weapon slots tied up in missile tubes that are half to entirely empty.
- Finish off the crippled mothership and destroyer with the four remaining battleships.
- Get over 100 exotics as Exodus from a battle you thought you would lose.
- Worry because you still can't force interceptions yet due to validation branch interception changes.
- Make a sacrificial gunship.
- Send it up against the massive doom fleet alone, proceed to have most of the alien fleet's missile supply emptied onto the gunship.
- Forget that you put your battleship fleet at the station they send the now depleted fleet against.
- Full stop the battleships using the added distance from the validation branch patch, make sure they are turned back around by the time the lead elements hit.
- Blow up most of the alien fleet using both LDA and battleship guns with only a single loss because the aliens have half their weapon slots tied up in missile tubes that are half to entirely empty.
- Finish off the crippled mothership and destroyer with the four remaining battleships.
- Get over 100 exotics as Exodus from a battle you thought you would lose.
- Worry because you still can't force interceptions yet due to validation branch interception changes.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
- Pronouns
- It/They
Antimatter has both the Plasma Core III and the Beam Core that take exotics, but honestly Plasma Core II can manage a fairly strong antimatter drive system so you only need them for massive antimatter powered ships.
Otherwise yes, those are the only two branches that use exotics, but no those other two aren't the best efficiency without exotics. The Salt Water Cores, both of them, have the same efficiency as the exotic Flow Stabilized Z-Pinch, and the two non-exotic antimatter are only beaten by the Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor VII.
E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
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- It/They
Moving onto weapon analysis now. Looking into the point defense verses mag weapon results.
... the aliens have poor point defense weapons too.
Their point defense laser has power going for it, with many kinetic weapon projectiles needing a full shot less with alien laser PD, if you don't have any laser engines, but with the massive downside that the thing has a 2.4 second cooldown* and a range of only 200km**.
So while projectiles are in range they can do better*** they have a notably shorter range to do so.
Particle point defense does slightly better, and is clearly above human equivalents**** with a 2 second cooldown and 225km range**, but it does half the damage of their laser version*****. So it takes even more shots to compensate.
* For comparison Arc PD has 2.5 and Phaser PD is 2.
** Standard laser PD has 250km, Arc 300km, and Phaser 350km.
*** 3 basic laser engines push human laser PD to just better, or 2 advanced ones to be outright better.
**** Human particle point defense has 30mj at 200km with 4 seconds of cooldown.
***** Human PD lasers are all 50mj base***, alien is 64mj.
Edit:
Some initial results are in from looking at the data I've collected.
- First off, of the hull mounts only heavy railgun batteries are large enough projectiles to take two hits instead of one against alien laser PD. Mk3 heavy coil battery projectiles can also take another hit, but mk1 and 2 cannot.
- Human laser PD needs two hits for the coil versions too, and alien coil batteries need 2 while their heavy ones need 3 hits, but just barely so a single standard laser engine will decrease those by 1.
- All size 2 mag cannon shots need two hits from alien laser PD to destroy. So coil rounds are just as hard to defeat as rail rounds there.
- Spinal mag cannons mostly take 3 shots for the alien laser PD to take out. The exception is the Mk3 Spinal Rail Cannon, which needs 4 shots instead.
- Against alien particle PD it looks like things are a bit more in favor of the railguns. The two and four slot batteries for railguns need an extra hit over their coilgun counterparts with alien particle point defense.
- Cannon mounts are less impressive, with only the full four slot spinal railguns getting an extra hit from alien particle point defense.
From the looks of things the battery mounts have the worst ability to get through point defense overall, and railguns can possibly compete a bit here. Especially if you are up against alien particle point defense.
... the aliens have poor point defense weapons too.
Their point defense laser has power going for it, with many kinetic weapon projectiles needing a full shot less with alien laser PD, if you don't have any laser engines, but with the massive downside that the thing has a 2.4 second cooldown* and a range of only 200km**.
So while projectiles are in range they can do better*** they have a notably shorter range to do so.
Particle point defense does slightly better, and is clearly above human equivalents**** with a 2 second cooldown and 225km range**, but it does half the damage of their laser version*****. So it takes even more shots to compensate.
* For comparison Arc PD has 2.5 and Phaser PD is 2.
** Standard laser PD has 250km, Arc 300km, and Phaser 350km.
*** 3 basic laser engines push human laser PD to just better, or 2 advanced ones to be outright better.
**** Human particle point defense has 30mj at 200km with 4 seconds of cooldown.
***** Human PD lasers are all 50mj base***, alien is 64mj.
Edit:
Some initial results are in from looking at the data I've collected.
- First off, of the hull mounts only heavy railgun batteries are large enough projectiles to take two hits instead of one against alien laser PD. Mk3 heavy coil battery projectiles can also take another hit, but mk1 and 2 cannot.
- Human laser PD needs two hits for the coil versions too, and alien coil batteries need 2 while their heavy ones need 3 hits, but just barely so a single standard laser engine will decrease those by 1.
- All size 2 mag cannon shots need two hits from alien laser PD to destroy. So coil rounds are just as hard to defeat as rail rounds there.
- Spinal mag cannons mostly take 3 shots for the alien laser PD to take out. The exception is the Mk3 Spinal Rail Cannon, which needs 4 shots instead.
- Against alien particle PD it looks like things are a bit more in favor of the railguns. The two and four slot batteries for railguns need an extra hit over their coilgun counterparts with alien particle point defense.
- Cannon mounts are less impressive, with only the full four slot spinal railguns getting an extra hit from alien particle point defense.
From the looks of things the battery mounts have the worst ability to get through point defense overall, and railguns can possibly compete a bit here. Especially if you are up against alien particle point defense.
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