Terra Invicta: Alien Invasion Grand Strategy from the makers of Long War

[E.I.G.]

You are doing wonderful work with your documentation. As some stuff maybe is bugged expect them to change. But once tables are available it's much less work to update them.

Single milligee cruise imho is very bad as it doesn't allow you to utilize your big delta vee on shorter transits.

With new mechanic to also demand thrust to intercept it will really change how stuff works.

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Yeah, that is a big downside, as I don't think a lot of the fusion drives can even manage double digit miligee period. The engine weight alone means they can't get to 10 miligees with any sort of combat load.
There are some options that do, but they are the advanced ones and that would mean you have to basically skip most fusion drives.

I missed the second update where you got the corrected numbers, yeah. That makes sense.

I would absolutely consider buying more turn speed if the game had a useful way to do so. Unfortunately the only way to be faster on the pivot is to pick a smaller hull or (rather substantially) reduce mass, neither of which tends to be a practical solution for major warships.


I just started producing a new model of corvette that uses 3x Zeta Boron/Flow Stabilized to hit something like 70 miligee cruise, 4 g (there's a hard-cap there it seems) combat acceleration, and also has over 1000 kps delta-V. That should be able to run down anything in the solar system with ease. I'm not sure whether it'll actually be useful, but at worst it should get me an achievement.

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Acceleration caps at 2g for cruise and 4g for combat, for the fairly simple reason that it is hard to keep humans alive in space if you go over that for the duration of those kind of burns. No magic inertial dampeners here.

 

[Mossconfig]

Acceleration caps at 2g for cruise and 4g for combat, for the fairly simple reason that it is hard to keep humans alive in space if you go over that for the duration of those kind of burns. No magic inertial dampeners here.

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An additional point in favor of endgame automated warships.

That should be able to run down anything in the solar system with ease. I'm not sure whether it'll actually be useful, but at worst it should get me an achievement.

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Can you dodge plasma with thrust like that? That might free up some mass from armor.

 

[E.I.G.]

... so after some consideration I've decided to at least give a link to a google sheets copy of my madness out on the forums:

Terra Invicta Drive Analyzer V1

docs.google.com

Mostly so people can critique my methodology, but also so I have a bit more reference with what I have been using for these statements. Golden cells outside the dV calculator are the places to change values. Reactors can be replaced as long as you match the reactor table names, which I'm 100% sure do not match the ingame names for some in a way I do not understand, and it does not currently check if you put in the muon spiker value instead so it will incorrectly apply that bonus to non-fusion drives currently.

Edit:
Change the number at the end of each drive to change thruster count, it automatically checks if the reactor matches and is powerful enough.

 

[Aineko]

Can you dodge plasma with thrust like that? That might free up some mass from armor.

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Aliens can dodge plasma at extreme range.

At extreme range is a bit of a sticky point though.

 

[Secretariat]

... so after some consideration I've decided to at least give a link to a google sheets copy of my madness out on the forums:

Terra Invicta Drive Analyzer V1

docs.google.com

Mostly so people can critique my methodology, but also so I have a bit more reference with what I have been using for these statements. Golden cells outside the dV calculator are the places to change values. Reactors can be replaced as long as you match the reactor table names, which I'm 100% sure do not match the ingame names for some in a way I do not understand, and it does not currently check if you put in the muon spiker value instead so it will incorrectly apply that bonus to non-fusion drives currently.

Edit:
Change the number at the end of each drive to change thruster count, it automatically checks if the reactor matches and is powerful enough.

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What should we take away from this analysis?

 

[E.I.G.]

What should we take away from this analysis?

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I'm still working out the takeaway results from it, right now I'm mostly trying to see what data is where. Although I can give some vague comments on each category of drives:

First off, I can firmly say that chemical rockets are not worth it, with only the Super Kronos getting anywhere near a usable dV value, and even then you are spending a massive amount of fuel to run them.
Electric drives can get you places, but they can't make any real accelerations.
Solid Core Fission is a mess of drives that don't work for very heavy craft, but can at least manage better accelerations than electric drives, and better dV than chemical rockets.
The best pulse propulsion drives are also the first ones along that path (Orion and Adv Orion), and I am unsure why the others even exist.
Liquid Core Fission sits between Solid and Gas, with few options but the best might have some value as alternatives for defense ships.
Gas Core is overall better than Solid Core, and is where you find the best thrusts outside top of the line drives.
Salt Water is just good, if you have the fissiles to run it.
Lithium Fusion is shit, don't research it.
The two kinds of Magnetic Fusion drives can't get out of the single digits for cruise acceleration miligees, but are at least solidly in that category with good dV.
Hybrid Fusion isn't bad, but it also is a dead end path in the main fusion techs and isn't as great on the high end.
Z-Pinch has two mediocre to bad drives, and two good or great drives, but suffers a lot if you don't get the reactor variant that costs exotics.
Inertial Confinement Fusion has two early drives that are poor for different reasons, one drive that works well but doesn't exit single digit cruise acceleration miligees, one crap drive, three good torches, and one over the top torch.
Antimatter is best drives, and can pull off everything even if you don't go all the way to exotic made reactors.

 

[Aineko]

Liquid Core Fission sits between Solid and Gas, with few options but the best might have some value as alternatives for defense ships.

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If you get it, Pegasus will let you make even dreadnoughts with okay acceleration.

Gas Core is overall better than Solid Core, and is where you find the best thrusts outside top of the line drives.

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Which drives are good, there? I found 'you must beat Pegasus in both stats or I don't care' to not leave much on the table.

 

[E.I.G.]

If you get it, Pegasus will let you make even dreadnoughts with okay acceleration.

Which drives are good, there? I found 'you must beat Pegasus in both stats or I don't care' to not leave much on the table.

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I'm currently mentally thinking of Pegasus as the liquid equivalent to the Flare and Firestar in Gas Core, with those two turning out better from my current math as long as you are willing to spend a lot of propellant, but they would be much cheaper where it comes to radiator cost.

I specified "overall better than Solid Core" for a reason, gas has lesser options that are better than what solid gets, even if they aren't better than liquid's best, along with a couple of drives that work better for slow and long range than what the electric options offer, and a small number that work better than what liquid has.

 

[Aineko]

I'm currently mentally thinking of Pegasus as the liquid equivalent to the Flare and Firestar in Gas Core, with those two turning out better from my current math as long as you are willing to spend a lot of propellant, but they would be much cheaper where it comes to radiator cost.

I specified "overall better than Solid Core" for a reason, gas has lesser options that are better than what solid gets, even if they aren't better than liquid's best, along with a couple of drives that work better for slow and long range than what the electric options offer, and a small number that work better than what liquid has.

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If you don't have Pegasus, Flare, Firestar, and maybe fission lantern seem plausible.

 

[E.I.G.]

... on one hand there are no more alien armies on earth in my game.
On the other hand I have just nuked my own India enough times that I probably decreased the world population by an ungodly amount.

I have no idea what to do about that other than build new armies in India, build more nukes in Pakistan, and keep increasing the military tech level.

 

[Aineko]

My aliens finally got a bit serious. Threw a fleet that was rated at 7k when it launched (only around 5k when it arrived) and then another within months of me killing the first.

I had an interesting fight with the first one. Wound up sacrificing half my dated earth defense fleet to annihilate them. I accidentally let it go in in line rather than wall, which messed up my missile defense and contributed to losing both my heavy ships. But then there was an extended dance between my destroyers and their assorted problems, and the 4-5 ships of mine that came through the initial pass chopped the enemy light combatants to bits before being run down by the surviving dreadnoughts.

The followup was just house-cleaning.

I don't have enough forces available to fork the next attack fleet, but I can almost certainly hit it with a fleet it thinks it can take, but actually can't.

And after that, there will be new fusion powered battleships with phasers everywhere and the aliens will be pretty well done, I think. There's barely anything left in the weapon tech tree.

... on one hand there are no more alien armies on earth in my game.
On the other hand I have just nuked my own India enough times that I probably decreased the world population by an ungodly amount.

I have no idea what to do about that other than build new armies in India, build more nukes in Pakistan, and keep increasing the military tech level.

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Don't let them land again?

Not necessarily an easy ask, but it does reduce how much you need to burn down the planet.

Plus side, you may have counterweighted global warming for a little while.

 

[E.I.G.]

Don't let them land again?

Not necessarily an easy ask, but it does reduce how much you need to burn down the planet.

Plus side, you may have counterweighted global warming for a little while.

Click to shrink...

If I was playing optimally and had known where to go for drives I probably would be able to pin down those ships on approach, but right now I only have the most basic fusion drives and the Advanced Pulsar.
I might theoretically be able to make fission ships that could in theory intercept them, but I don't think my fusion ships have the acceleration.
... although from a double check the full acceleration to intercept changes aren't in the main release yet, so I can't be sure there.

Doesn't help that I've allowed the Servants to build a fleet of missile ships that they used to protect the last alien ship I attempted to intercept in retaliation for this invasion attempt. My current fleet does not have enough point defense for that.

Still, that probably has stopped the Alien Admin for a while now, and I might be in a place to try and break it with councilors.

 

[Mossconfig]

Servants to build a fleet of missile ships that they used to protect the last alien ship

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Servant slow ships can tie down faster aliens ships as fleets are limited by their slowest combatant.

 

[Aineko]

If I was playing optimally and had known where to go for drives I probably would be able to pin down those ships on approach, but right now I only have the most basic fusion drives and the Advanced Pulsar.
I might theoretically be able to make fission ships that could in theory intercept them, but I don't think my fusion ships have the acceleration.
... although from a double check the full acceleration to intercept changes aren't in the main release yet, so I can't be sure there.

Doesn't help that I've allowed the Servants to build a fleet of missile ships that they used to protect the last alien ship I attempted to intercept in retaliation for this invasion attempt. My current fleet does not have enough point defense for that.

Still, that probably has stopped the Alien Admin for a while now, and I might be in a place to try and break it with councilors.

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Again, you don't need performance to intercept at all. Pincer, pincer, pincer.

I didn't have the ability to outbid aliens until about 2049. I killed a lot of aliens before 2049.

 

[E.I.G.]

Servant slow ships can tie down faster aliens ships as fleets are limited by their slowest combatant.

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The issue with the Servant ships isn't that I can't catch them, that actually let me get my fleet out of there, but instead that they all have at least one missile bay and there was at least six of them backing up the alien ship I intended to pick off on its own.

Again, you don't need performance to intercept at all. Pincer, pincer, pincer.

I didn't have the ability to outbid aliens until about 2049. I killed a lot of aliens before 2049.

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... so, I'm going to be a bit blunt about my response here.
This is my current fleet of ships:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

The oldest ships are the Atria class, who both participated in my first alien ship kill along with a third more primitive version from before hydrogen propellant enhancements that was scrapped. They have been upgraded numerous times to the modern version where they serve a theoretical defensive anti-ship role but mostly as extra point defense:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

The Gloria is the only one of her class I have built. A battleship with a main armament of two size two kinetic batteries with laser support. Also upgraded from a more primitive version to the current design:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

Finally there are my latest ships, and only fusion designs, the Huo Niao class destroyer. Made to deter or intercept any of the light harassment ships I've heard the aliens like to use from my various mining locations:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

... that is every ship I currently control. So, with that in mind, can you explain how exactly to preform this "Pincer" with these designs. Note that these are the best drives I currently have access to, so any requirement of better drives means I need to research them before I can implement it.

 

[SoHowAreYou]

So having played the game now I really like it but it has some problems.

Space combat is hard for me. Some of that is my fault being lazy, but I think we need more tools for more precise and easier control, like formations.

Station blueprints which the devs have said will be implemented so that's good.

Late game tedium, I get the sense that we're supposed to play like Perun did in his run and explode and finish up around the early 2040s at least in the devs eyes.

Fleet management needs to be refined I want to launch a group of ships and have them be in one fleet automatically. Also if I send a fleet to the shipyard I would like an option to repair and resupply on arrival in the transfer menu.

Also having played resistance first and then Initiative next, uh initiative is so much cooler, they have some neat unique techs that resistance doesn't have an equivalent for.

Overall I will wrap up the initiative run and probably use some mods in the next run for fun.

 

[Aineko]

... so, I'm going to be a bit blunt about my response here.
This is my current fleet of ships:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

The oldest ships are the Atria class, who both participated in my first alien ship kill along with a third more primitive version from before hydrogen propellant enhancements that was scrapped. They have been upgraded numerous times to the modern version where they serve a theoretical defensive anti-ship role but mostly as extra point defense:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

The Gloria is the only one of her class I have built. A battleship with a main armament of two size two kinetic batteries with laser support. Also upgraded from a more primitive version to the current design:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

Finally there are my latest ships, and only fusion designs, the Huo Niao class destroyer. Made to deter or intercept any of the light harassment ships I've heard the aliens like to use from my various mining locations:

Steam Community :: Screenshot

Steam Community: Terra Invicta.

steamcommunity.com

... that is every ship I currently control. So, with that in mind, can you explain how exactly to preform this "Pincer" with these designs. Note that these are the best drives I currently have access to, so any requirement of better drives means I need to research them before I can implement it.

Click to shrink...

Pincering has nothing to do with technology at all. You can do it with Nerva or chemical boosters or ion drives, and with starter weapons.

You form two fleets and attack with both at the same time. The aliens can't evade both. That is the entire thing.

The fact that you just don't have any ships does perhaps make that not very useful. But you've been talking as if the problem was catching aliens rather than not having enough ships in the entire solar system to fight them if you did.

 

[E.I.G.]

Pincering has nothing to do with technology at all. You can do it with Nerva or chemical boosters or ion drives, and with starter weapons.

You form two fleets and attack with both at the same time. The aliens can't evade both. That is the entire thing.

The fact that you just don't have any ships does perhaps make that not very useful. But you've been talking as if the problem was catching aliens rather than not having enough ships in the entire solar system to fight them if you did.

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??? What?
What do you mean you can't evade two fleets at once? Why is that a thing?
Okay, if that is not a bug then I will like to hear some justification for how that works physically, because that does not sound like it is in any way how space combat should work.

I don't have ships because I could not determine how to force an engagement. I originally planned to build more of those battleships, but when I discovered the alien ships I actually wanted to intercept could just run I scrapped that plan in favor of teching up.
This does not sound like a real solution to forcing an engagement, but instead an exploit of insufficiently detailed mechanics.

 

[SoHowAreYou]

??? What?
What do you mean you can't evade two fleets at once? Why is that a thing?
Okay, if that is not a bug then I will like to hear some justification for how that works physically, because that does not sound like it is in any way how space combat should work.

I don't have ships because I could not determine how to force an engagement. I originally planned to build more of those battleships, but when I discovered the alien ships I actually wanted to intercept could just run I scrapped that plan in favor of teching up.
This does not sound like a real solution to forcing an engagement, but instead an exploit of insufficiently detailed mechanics.

Click to shrink...

It's purposeful it represents a second fleet entering the evasion path of the first fleet to force a confrontation. Not sure its realistic but I think it's a concession to game mechanics over realism which I'm fine with. It really hasn't come up for me so I don't have an opinion on if it's super necessary.

 

[Aineko]

??? What?
What do you mean you can't evade two fleets at once? Why is that a thing?
Okay, if that is not a bug then I will like to hear some justification for how that works physically, because that does not sound like it is in any way how space combat should work.

I don't have ships because I could not determine how to force an engagement. I originally planned to build more of those battleships, but when I discovered the alien ships I actually wanted to intercept could just run I scrapped that plan in favor of teching up.
This does not sound like a real solution to forcing an engagement, but instead an exploit of insufficiently detailed mechanics.

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I have heard that it is intended, and indeed seen claims that they intend to add explicit support for it rather than having to do it manually.

It isn't like a timeout after dodging is something that would be there by accident.

I honestly agree that the setup is unrealistic. There's no way two fleets block every escape for one far more mobile fleet.

OTOH it is also unrealistic that evading basically costs nothing. You can't burn all that delta-V to escape and then be in the same orbit like nothing happened. The whole thing is flimsy.

 

[E.I.G.]

It's purposeful it represents a second fleet entering the evasion path of the first fleet to force a confrontation. Not sure its realistic but I think it's a concession to game mechanics over realism which I'm fine with. It really hasn't come up for me so I don't have an opinion on if it's super necessary.

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I have heard that it is intended, and indeed seen claims that they intend to add explicit support for it rather than having to do it manually.

It isn't like a timeout after dodging is something that would be there by accident.

I honestly agree that the setup is unrealistic. There's no way two fleets block every escape for one far more mobile fleet.

OTOH it is also unrealistic that evading basically costs nothing. You can't burn all that delta-V to escape and then be in the same orbit like nothing happened. The whole thing is flimsy.

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... I do not buy that two ion engine ships can do that to a godsdamn torchship.
I refuse to do that. Nope, not fucking with that.

Edit:
Let me explain why this actually pisses me off:
It basically just invalidates any drive research at all. Why bother going for better if anything and everything will work all the time? Why should I care about getting anything better than what I already have if I can solve any fleet problem with just twice the number of shit ships?

 

[Aineko]

... I do not buy that two ion engine ships can do that to a godsdamn torchship.
I refuse to do that. Nope, not fucking with that.

Edit:
Let me explain why this actually pisses me off:
It basically just invalidates any drive research at all. Why bother going for better if anything and everything will work all the time? Why should I care about getting anything better than what I already have if I can solve any fleet problem with just twice the number of shit ships?

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...because drives serve a purpose other than denying enemy evasion? I don't think that's the mystery you're making it.

I mean do you actually think the intended game play is that you cannot fight at all until developing endgame drives?

 

[E.I.G.]

...because drives serve a purpose other than denying enemy evasion? I don't think that's the mystery you're making it.

I mean do you actually think the intended game play is that you cannot fight at all until developing endgame drives?

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I think there is an entire tree branch of drives that can get good acceleration values but not good dV that is currently lambasted as "useless" apparently because nobody cares about acceleration until they've reached endgame drives.
It is a lot easier to understand why everyone is saying Gas Core Fission is pointless if I can just make twice the Triton Reflex drive ships and still intercept with the low accelerations but big dV values I get with them.

I think that drives that don't make the acceleration to do intercepts should have to deal with opportunity attacks and defensive roles, with higher accelerations needed to intercept actively.

 

[Aineko]

I think there is an entire tree branch of drives that can get good acceleration values but not good dV that is currently lambasted as "useless" apparently because nobody cares about acceleration until they've reached endgame drives.
It is a lot easier to understand why everyone is saying Gas Core Fission is pointless if I can just make twice the Triton Reflex drive ships and still intercept with the low accelerations but big dV values I get with them.

I think that drives that don't make the acceleration to do intercepts should have to deal with opportunity attacks and defensive roles, with higher accelerations needed to intercept actively.

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The pincer isn't really the problem there, since the way you want to be able to force an engagement isn't supported by the game. Is it? I mean it should be if they're not going to make a larger fix. But as of now?

Also, the way you're putting it here doesn't add up. I mean you don't expect a human chemical rocket to be untouchable by an alien torchship? Delta-V beats acceleration if you have space and time to spend it. Of course against aliens, that space would require chasing them all the way to the outer system.


Honestly they should replace the untouchable dodge thing with a proper escape transfer. If you want to run away actually run away. EDIT: And then the existing intercept solver handles whether the pursuer can catch up.

 

[E.I.G.]

The pincer isn't really the problem there, since the way you want to be able to force an engagement isn't supported by the game. Is it? I mean it should be if they're not going to make a larger fix. But as of now?

Also, the way you're putting it here doesn't add up. I mean you don't expect a human chemical rocket to be untouchable by an alien torchship? Delta-V beats acceleration if you have space and time to spend it. Of course against aliens, that space would require chasing them all the way to the outer system.


Honestly they should replace the untouchable dodge thing with a proper escape transfer. If you want to run away actually run away. EDIT: And then the existing intercept solver handles whether the pursuer can catch up.

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The dev forums have patch notes for the validation builds that are available to opt in but not yet stable enough to hit main patch. I have not attempted to use them yet, but one of the most recent additions is:

- fix bad units in precombat pursuit math / logic
- Precombat bidding outcomes now properly respects fleet accelerations.

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Patch notes 0.3.16-39 - Pavonis Interactive Forums

Now, I do wish they had the math for it displayed somewhere so I could work out myself where dV and acceleration trade off in interception. It would let me better calibrate how much more/less than the enemy acceleration I can intercept/escape, and the calculations for stuff like delta v or laser performance are at least ones I can look up to get those interactions.

As for the practicals, I don't expect a practical human chemical rocket to get away from an alien ship for very long, but over a short burst I could see it happening. That is kind of why I want the equation, to know where they have tuned the idea of "you get away" to compared to "you get caught".
If an engagement is just a couple of minutes then not very much dV can be applied to try and intercept, so a sensible chemical rocket will manage to get out of the way in time, but if it is half an hour to an hour then you will run out quickly and then get run down.
Delta V divided by Acceleration equals maximum burn time, and in practice most non-chemical drives have the ability to burn for days before running dry, with the exceptions being early high acceleration drives with low delta V.

All that said I would appreciate if the burns did throw the ship out of orbit, as it would add another option for dealing with enemies and another risk of intercepting. So I do like that idea a lot.