Terra Invicta: Alien Invasion Grand Strategy from the makers of Long War

The date is September 18, 2018. The Servants' influence stretches from Canada to Honduras, a shining web of solidarity and unity. The message of the Emissaries has touched the minds of millions promising a glorious future to those who join in blessed commune with those sent to uplift us. Servant engineers and scientists rapidly work to develop new technologies to ensure that this unity only continues to grow.

In short, it's going pretty well. We're well on the way to giving Humanity the future it deserves.

Unfortunately in my haste to spread our creed throughout the Americas I forgot to normalize relations between the United States, the strongest Servant state, and Venezuela. A mistake that meant when Humanity First South Korea declared war on Venezuela there was nothing that could be done to avert it. So I chose to rapidly break the alliance between South Korea and the United States in order to stop them by force, to my dismay I saw that they were allied with Humanity First Russia and by extension its nuclear weapons. At first, it completely dissuaded me from going to war, but then I had a thought. Why should that stop me? Is Humanity First not the most hated of the Emissary's enemies? It is true that it could trigger a nuclear war and kill millions, but that too would merely be an opportunity to eradicate the most despicable of our rivals. One way or the other Humanity First will fall and Humanity will rise.

If the world dies let it die for the greatest cause.

(I love this game so much lol)
 
So I am playing around with my spreadsheet tools, and using those to work out what things look like for my attempts at fusion drives in game.
... most fusion drives are shit.

Sure you can get big numbers for dV, but only the very best of them can even manage a double digit cruise miligee value, and that is assuming they are good enough to hit single digits.
With how that acceleration determines both the rate of travel between bodies and also interception capability I am suddenly unsure you can even force engagements with most of them, although I only have one of the worse examples ingame so far so I can't check to be certain.

Meanwhile I see a lot more value in grabbing Gas Core Fission. They have very good values, at the downside of massive propellant costs to make the most use of their high end options, but on top of that the Gas Core tech allows pursuit of Antimatter.
Antimatter gets high acceleration, high dV, and also low propellant costs.

An Advanced Antimatter Plasma Core drive with a single thruster, that can still be run by the no-exotic cost Antimatter II reactor instead of the III, will get a payload of 8000 tons to over 500 dV at 45 miligees for only .01 antimatter and 99.99 water as the total fuel load. If you spend exotics to add more thrusters you can outpace any alien ship.

The Daedelus Torch for comparison will only get such a load to around 38 miligees, and also has a risk of not showing up in a game.

I'd like to hear/see how the fusion stuff works out in practice, as I suspect interception is probably easier than I am thinking, but right now it looks like a confusing mess to work out what drive path is the best to take.
 
So I am playing around with my spreadsheet tools, and using those to work out what things look like for my attempts at fusion drives in game.
... most fusion drives are shit.

Sure you can get big numbers for dV, but only the very best of them can even manage a double digit cruise miligee value, and that is assuming they are good enough to hit single digits.
With how that acceleration determines both the rate of travel between bodies and also interception capability I am suddenly unsure you can even force engagements with most of them, although I only have one of the worse examples ingame so far so I can't check to be certain.
I think you're wildly overestimating the importance of cruise thrust, and to some extent of thrust in general. I mean, yeah, low cruise thrust does limit how fast you cover long trips and how far you can do interceptions. Compared to the 'you can't do long trips and can only 'intercept' enemies at their destination' that my pre-Fusion combat-rated drives delivered, I can't complain at all. High delta-V can cover a lot. (Note that while high-delta-V low thrust may have trouble catching enemies it doesn't have trouble running away. I've left a trail of run-dry alien interceptors behind my explorer/colony ship.)

I've used both VASIMR and grid drives to good effect before. It must be said that a lot of fusion drives do have performance that puts them in the 'no real combat acceleration' bucket, especially the lower-tech ones outside the Zeta family.
Meanwhile I see a lot more value in grabbing Gas Core Fission. They have very good values, at the downside of massive propellant costs to make the most use of their high end options, but on top of that the Gas Core tech allows pursuit of Antimatter.
Antimatter gets high acceleration, high dV, and also low propellant costs.
Which gas core drives have good values? IME most of them have unimpressive delta-V and usually also unexciting thrust, with the exception of dusty plasma which has awesome delta-V but abysmal thrust.

Some of the fancier fission drives exclude themselves from using the hydrogen tankage utilities, which are pretty significant delta-V boosters.
An Advanced Antimatter Plasma Core drive with a single thruster, that can still be run by the no-exotic cost Antimatter II reactor instead of the III, will get a payload of 8000 tons to over 500 dV at 45 miligees for only .01 antimatter and 99.99 water as the total fuel load. If you spend exotics to add more thrusters you can outpace any alien ship.

The Daedelus Torch for comparison will only get such a load to around 38 miligees, and also has a risk of not showing up in a game.

I'd like to hear/see how the fusion stuff works out in practice, as I suspect interception is probably easier than I am thinking, but right now it looks like a confusing mess to work out what drive path is the best to take.
Antimatter propulsion requires a really hefty tech investment to get, it must be said. Though fusion isn't exactly light either.

Have you been factoring in an antimatter spiker? Because while that works for both fission and fusion drives, it makes a particularly big difference for drives where you can't get enough thrust by adding more drives, either because of the 6x cap (relevant to heavy ships combined with smaller drive types like a Advanced Pulsar battleship) or because the acceleration of the drive with no payload at all is on the low side (applies to a lot of non-exotic fusion).
 
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I think you're wildly overestimating the importance of cruise thrust, and to some extent of thrust in general. I mean, yeah, low cruise thrust does limit how fast you cover long trips and how far you can do interceptions. Compared to the 'you can't do long trips and can only 'intercept' enemies at their destination' that my pre-Fusion combat-rated drives delivered, I can't complain at all. High delta-V can cover a lot. (Note that while high-delta-V low thrust may have trouble catching enemies it doesn't have trouble running away. I've left a trail of run-dry alien interceptors behind my explorer/colony ship.)

I've used both VASIMR and grid drives to good effect before. It must be said that a lot of fusion drives do have performance that puts them in the 'no real combat acceleration' bucket, especially the lower-tech ones outsize the Zeta family.
I probably am, that is kind of why I'm asking for more practical results.
Catching Assault Transports is my main goal to work out how to best accomplish specifically.
Which gas core drives have good values? IME most of them have unimpressive delta-V and usually also unexciting thrust, with the exception of dusty plasma which has awesome delta-V but abysmal thrust.

Some of the fancier fission drives exclude themselves from using the hydrogen tankage utilities, which are pretty significant delta-V boosters.
"Good" here is with an * that you need to spend thousands of units of water for propellant, and another that the dV isn't good even then. Which is part of why I wish I had the catch formula. The Fission Lantern, Flare Drive, and Firestar Drive all can get really high cruise values for heavy loads, but they only get a couple hundred dV at best and take a lot of propellant to do so.
The other Gas Core all get dV the same as Advanced Pulsar or better, but with twice the thrust in many cases, which while not great is at least an alternative there.

The main benefit I see is the chance of Salt Water if you have good fissile income, and being able to go straight to antimatter from Gas Core.
Have you been factoring in an antimatter spiker? Because while that works for both fission and fusion drives, it makes a particularly big difference for drives where you can't get enough thrust by adding more drives, either because of the 6x cap (relevant to heavy ships combined with smaller drive types like a Advanced Pulsar battleship) or because the acceleration of the drive with no payload at all is on the low side (applies to a lot of non-exotic fusion).
Both that and the hydrogen upgrades are in my calculations. Unless the math for them is strange I should have those covered.

Part of my commentary was less that fusion isn't good, and more that I am trying to work out the use case for many of the drives. I'm just getting to them, and the calculations are making me wonder if on another game I might try to just get Gas Core and only worry about the fusion tech needed for base upgrades (Which is just "In Space" and "TeraWatt", which both don't need the really expensive "fusion method" techs).
 
I probably am, that is kind of why I'm asking for more practical results.
Catching Assault Transports is my main goal to work out how to best accomplish specifically.
I've never felt a need to run those down rather than pincer them.

(Note that in addition to the 'full pincer' where you send two adequate fleets, I believe there's a 'sacrifice pincer' you can pull off where you make sure you know which fleet will arrive first, and make that one a disposable escort or similar. Invasion fleets may still flee from it. Fleets that fight it will probably still be stunned so the main group can force them to action.)
"Good" here is with an * that you need to spend thousands of units of water for propellant, and another that the dV isn't good even then. Which is part of why I wish I had the catch formula. The Fission Lantern, Flare Drive, and Firestar Drive all can get really high cruise values for heavy loads, but they only get a couple hundred dV at best and take a lot of propellant to do so.
The other Gas Core all get dV the same as Advanced Pulsar or better, but with twice the thrust in many cases, which while not great is at least an alternative there.

The main benefit I see is the chance of Salt Water if you have good fissile income, and being able to go straight to antimatter from Gas Core.
I generally look at the delta-V of Advanced Pulsar and Pegasus as merely adequate for local defense ships. Even with slush tankage I generally didn't put more than ~20 kps on them, and often down around 12 before that! I may have an unhealthy unwillingness to spend reaction mass liberally, though I can't say I feel bad about it. You can make interplanetary transits with them if you really want to, but I am never willing to spend the kind of resources it would take to move fleets that way so I don't build the capacity in (beyond very optimal on-phase transfers, which are sometimes achievable for my local-defense ships).

So the idea of making any kind of substantive intercepts with those exhaust velocities isn't something I've ever given serious consideration.
Part of my commentary was less that fusion isn't good, and more that I am trying to work out the use case for many of the drives. I'm just getting to them, and the calculations are making me wonder if on another game I might try to just get Gas Core and only worry about the fusion tech needed for base upgrades (Which is just "In Space" and "TeraWatt", which both don't need the really expensive "fusion method" techs).
Well, from my perspective as a z-pinch fusion user:

My early fusion drive, Triton Pulse, didn't get much use. Partly for economic/historical reasons - I didn't have a lot of spare MC in its time and didn't want to scrap and replace my older types - and partly because with my sparing approach to reaction mass it didn't really open the solar system up. I built targeting 60 kps, which makes many interplanetary transits possible but most of them still too slow to want to use much. It might have been good if I needed to do interplanetary inner system warfare to liberate Earth orbit or something, but I never did. The combat thrust was also decidedly weak, due to the low multiplier. I have a handful of ships from that generation still around, but they're largely just joined to fission-based local defense groups. I didn't stop building Pegasus Drive local defense warships at that point, because they were cheaper and better except for missions that never really happened. Due to the fissile component in the reaction mass, they didn't even feel cheaper to operate.

The Zeta Helion/Z-pinch III ship generation is interesting. They're expensive and massive and don't have quite as much combat thrust as I'd prefer. But I built them with enough delta-V to show up the aliens - targeting at least 1000 KPS on most, which is honestly quite low for the exhaust velocity they offer. They have no problem blasting from Mercury to Jupiter on a direct line, spend negligible fuel on local intercepts, and do have viable options of intercepting alien fleets passing by towards the inner system. Cruise thrust isn't high, but since none of my earlier atomic rocket designs had enough delta-V for that to really matter I don't feel the lack. They also have terrible turn performance due to the massive power system and the inability to scale up rotational thrust, though I'm not sure I noticed that as a problem in combat.

Zeta Helion/Flow Stabilized Z-pinch is pretty much cheating. The drive cost drops to almost nothing, and the radiators become a lot less massive as well. These can easily reach or exceed my usual target for combat thrust (1 g) even on dreadnoughts. I could build nothing but this for the rest of the game and probably not have any problems. If you stack them up you could even get pretty significant cruise thrust, though other technologies that rely less on the combat multiplier probably can do better.

Zeta Boron is an interesting side path. I developed it late and got the flow stabilization so I'm not sure I need it. But it does achieve significantly more thrust - and draw less power, which helps even with the exotic reactor but would be hugely beneficial if you were limited to Z-pinch III. It has a great deal less exhaust velocity than the Zeta Helion, but still vastly higher than any of my other combat drives. I have a few 'local defense' oriented designs that use it and have a few hundred KPS - more than the budget for my early electric drive colony ships, certainly plenty for inner system interplanetary moves and well capable of longer hauls if not as fast. You could certainly achieve more than that if you were willing to load them down with more reaction mass, I'm not sure where the balance between more thrust and more mass would fall if you didn't mind piling that on.


I spent a loong time waiting for fusion drive research to happen, having inadvertantly avoided pretty much all its precursor technologies early on (except to some extent the fusion pile prereqs).
 
I've never felt a need to run those down rather than pincer them.

(Note that in addition to the 'full pincer' where you send two adequate fleets, I believe there's a 'sacrifice pincer' you can pull off where you make sure you know which fleet will arrive first, and make that one a disposable escort or similar. Invasion fleets may still flee from it. Fleets that fight it will probably still be stunned so the main group can force them to action.)
I was hoping that enough cruise gs will let me force them despite their massive dV banks, but I need to somehow find out what formula is being used to determine how much can be spent to truly work that out.
I generally look at the delta-V of Advanced Pulsar and Pegasus as merely adequate for local defense ships. Even with slush tankage I generally didn't put more than ~20 kps on them, and often down around 12 before that! I may have an unhealthy unwillingness to spend reaction mass liberally, though I can't say I feel bad about it. You can make interplanetary transits with them if you really want to, but I am never willing to spend the kind of resources it would take to move fleets that way so I don't build the capacity in (beyond very optimal on-phase transfers, which are sometimes achievable for my local-defense ships).

So the idea of making any kind of substantive intercepts with those exhaust velocities isn't something I've ever given serious consideration.
Local defense is my thinking too, but that seems like it is supposed to be the transitional job of drives between the very first and the very endgame options, at least if my understanding of the goals for early access improvements are right.
Fights against other humans as well as attempts to take on aliens.
Well, from my perspective as a z-pinch fusion user:
Ah, z-Pinch.
So, the thing there is that z-Pinch is what I'm mentally filing as an "advanced fusion" option on its own. They all need at least Deuterium Helium 3 fusion, which is the second tech level for fusion drives, along with the extra tech of Applied AI. Found the issue, my tech requirements chart is missing Triton Pulse as the early option for the z-pinch tree, so all I saw was the Terawatt upgrades.

Although a check of my calculator shows that you might just have picked the high thrust fusion option. The only fusion drives that come close to the thrust of z-pinch drives in the other categories are the torches. Everything else is getting notably less for my current calculation set.
 
So, what's life like under the Alien Administration, is free will abolished or is that just when you go to work? How are things governed?
 
Still adding parts to my monster spreadsheets, resigned at this point to the fact that it is not clean enough to publicly release.
Added a calculator for the cost of the entire drive system and added it to the display for propellant.

Fission Lantern drives are too expensive to use multiple thrusters, but that is an exception to another advantage of Gas Core, the fact that a lot of the high end models are open cycle cooling. Which means they are cheap to build, with the main cost being the reactor itself because they don't need a radiator for their drive heat.
According to these calcs a Firestar Drive doesn't have any material it would cost over 400 to put on a ship, and the NFT mostly costs for an expensive reactor for a lot of benefit.

On the low end the Advanced Vortex and Cavity drives have similar dV to Advanced Pulsar at a better acceleration, and they are cheaper to build the drive systems even if they take more water to run despite not being open cycle examples. So they still work as nice backups for defensive ships or early combatants if you don't get the earlier Advanced Pulsar.

Many of the "torch" engines have monster costs of whatever you make your radiators due to not being open cycle. Even just one thruster can have massive costs for those, and that is a flat cost regardless of your payload or propellant.
 
If you're wondering how my game is going...


It's going fine.

(It's not in the screenshot but Russia has nuked the Washington, Atlanta, and Denver regions and I've nuked Kyiv, Kharkiv, Moscow, and St. Petersburg- we're officially in Nuclear winter)
 
If you're wondering how my game is going...


It's going fine.

(It's not in the screenshot but Russia has nuked the Washington, Atlanta, and Denver regions and I've nuked Kyiv, Kharkiv, Moscow, and St. Petersburg- we're officially in Nuclear winter)
Wait, so you're also invading Ukraine?
 
Although a check of my calculator shows that you might just have picked the high thrust fusion option. The only fusion drives that come close to the thrust of z-pinch drives in the other categories are the torches. Everything else is getting notably less for my current calculation set.
Yeah, that is why I followed that path. I'm not sure the other paths make sense with how good z-pinch is.

Icarus (non-torch) has more thrust than Zeta Helion, but no fusion drive without torch in the name has more thrust than Zeta Boron.
On the low end the Advanced Vortex and Cavity drives have similar dV to Advanced Pulsar at a better acceleration, and they are cheaper to build the drive systems even if they take more water to run despite not being open cycle examples. So they still work as nice backups for defensive ships or early combatants if you don't get the earlier Advanced Pulsar.
How are the gas cores cheaper to build the drive systems? Are you just talking the savings from higher reactor efficiency so less radiator?

IME for (non-torch) fission drives the weight and cost of the drive, radiators and all, is basically not a very significant part of the cost of the vessel. It wasn't until I started building Zeta Helion ships that drive mass became substantial.
 
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other paths make sense with how good z-pinch is.
That's not right, there are other great drives. The only useless fusion paths are electrostatic and tokamak confinement.

lets just share spreadsheets.
Copy of Terra Invicta Ship Drives and Parts v2 (0.3.27).xlsx

this is mine, with a handy graph at the bottom of the drives sheet.
 
That's not right, there are other great drives. The only useless fusion paths are electrostatic and tokamak confinement.
There are other good fusion drives, but pretty much only at the capstones of their paths. And are they actually better?

Of course, Zeta does hurt a lot if you don't get the somewhat chancy step to flow-stabilized.
 
Yeah, that is why I followed that path. I'm not sure the other paths make sense with how good z-pinch is.

Icarus (non-torch) has more thrust than Zeta Helion, but no fusion drive without torch in the name has more thrust than Zeta Boron.

How are the gas cores cheaper to build the drive systems? Are you just talking the savings from higher reactor efficiency so less radiator?

IME for (non-torch) fission drives the weight and cost of the drive, radiators and all, is basically not a very significant part of the cost of the vessel. It wasn't until I started building Zeta Helion ships that drive mass became substantial.
I will get back to you on that after I double check that my new addition to the table is game accurate. Currently I am multiplying the cost per resource against the resulting mass of the reactor, but it is possible the cost is per gigawatt instead.
If it is based on mass, then the "gigawatts per ton" value of a reactor also matters for the cost of the overall ship, and it matters much more for open cycle drives than closed or calculation drives. (Do not ask me what the difference is between those last two, I do not know if there even is one.)
The efficiency of the reactor then determines how much radiator the drive needs, and it is a very massive change for the high powered drives. The difference between an Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor V and a Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor VII for a 3 thruster Daedelus Torch is notable enough to make the drive not worth anywhere near as much. That is how 95% compares to 99.9% here.

One thing I definitely missed is the two early Gas Core drives I mentioned trade out some metals cost for noble metals cost, which is probably a bit more expensive in practice than just more metal cost.

I'm also currently working with the assumption of use of the best reactor possible for the most part.
That's not right, there are other great drives. The only useless fusion paths are electrostatic and tokamak confinement.

lets just share spreadsheets.
Copy of Terra Invicta Ship Drives and Parts v2 (0.3.27).xlsx

this is mine, with a handy graph at the bottom of the drives sheet.
My personal monster tables say that these theoretical placements don't always quite work out in practice. Triton Pulse and Triton Vista both struggle to get dV values, I will agree that Adv Helion Reflex can manage alright stats, but the other z-pinch non-torch drives work out better if with a notably higher radiator cost.
Additionally, I'd say the Tokamak capstone drive of Mag Protium Fusion Drive is fairly good by fusion drive standards, and my table gives good if not great performance out of Advanced Helion Torus. So that line isn't worthless given you can get it with basically no research cost. All the magnetic fusion drives take to develop is Magnetic Containment, which is needed anyway for Magnetic Nozzles that all fusion drives require.
... okay, most fusion drives, the exception is the Electrostatic path, which has a single shitty drive and requires a unique fusion type to globally research. At least Hybrid drives have some theoretically good torch style drives if you get their extra fusion tech.
There are other good fusion drives, but pretty much only at the capstones of their paths. And are they actually better?

Of course, Zeta does hurt a lot if you don't get the somewhat chancy step to flow-stabilized.
I think I need more ingame performance to work out what stats are useful in practice. If you can reliably get between planets and engage fleets with drives I am uncertain about, then my opinion of what is "good" and what is "bad" will need to change.
 
The efficiency of the reactor then determines how much radiator the drive needs, and it is a very massive change for the high powered drives. The difference between an Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor V and a Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor VII for a 3 thruster Daedelus Torch is notable enough to make the drive not worth anywhere near as much. That is how 95% compares to 99.9% here.
Certainly, but it's a much less drastic change for lower-powered drives, and fission drives (neutron torch discounted) are a lot lower powered than late fusion due to their much lower exhaust velocities. I'm pretty sure for almost all of the fission-based ships I built, the entire drive/plant/radiator complex was a small mass fraction.

Also crew requirement can be a sneaky deciding factor for small ships in some cases. I know there were a couple designs where I considered swapping to a more efficient reactor that gave a lower drive complex mass (for electric craft, where which type of reactor to use is a matter of choice), but the result was all the performance numbers went down because the penalty of adding 10 crew members outweighed the savings.
Additionally, I'd say the Tokamak capstone drive of Mag Protium Fusion Drive is fairly good by fusion drive standards, and my table gives good if not great performance out of Advanced Helion Torus. So that line isn't worthless given you can get it with basically no research cost.
Advanced Helion Torus gives good cruise thrust in your table? Can you investigate how? The old graph I look at for drives I don't have says it has less thrust than NERVA.
I think I need more ingame performance to work out what stats are useful in practice. If you can reliably get between planets and engage fleets with drives I am uncertain about, then my opinion of what is "good" and what is "bad" will need to change.
Zeta Helion definitely does that.

It can't intercept every fleet from every angle. But I've been sending my Zeta Helion battleships running around picking off alien groups in transit. (Side note: the best place for an intercept force? Near an alien base so you can intercept groups as they retreat to resupply. My base at Callisto is rapidly becoming devoted to interdicting travel to the alien's Jovian moon base.)


Other side note: it seems like if your ships get immobilized while doing an intercept, they can get stuck unresponsive to all commands on a multi-year drift out of the solar system.
 
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Certainly, but it's a much less drastic change for lower-powered drives, and fission drives (neutron torch discounted) are a lot lower powered than late fusion due to their much lower exhaust velocities. I'm pretty sure for almost all of the fission-based ships I built, the entire drive/plant/radiator complex was a small mass fraction.

Also crew requirement can be a sneaky deciding factor for small ships in some cases. I know there were a couple designs where I considered swapping to a more efficient reactor that gave a lower drive complex mass (for electric craft, where which type of reactor to use is a matter of choice), but the result was all the performance numbers went down because the penalty of adding 10 crew members outweighed the savings.
Well, I was comparing Solid Core to Gas Core, and in a "if you don't get Advanced Pulsar" rather than a direct improvement way. So less "this is better" and more "this is more options near the start".

Although crew requirements might be throwing me off in places.
Advanced Helion Torus gives good cruise thrust in your table? Can you investigate how? The old graph I look at for drives I don't have says it has less thrust than NERVA.
"Good" in this case being that for an 8kt payload it can make ~650kps dV at ~2.5 miligee cruise with only 5 tanks if you use the Antimatter Spiker and Hydron Trap. That last part is the key here, with the maximum hydrogen boost to exhaust velocity it is getting a monstrous amount of exhaust velocity. If I know what chart you mean it is so far to the right that only a handful of the torch options get more exhaust velocity, and those don't even use hydrogen propellant so they can't get the boost to EV.
With that boost there are only a handful of drives with better exhaust velocity.

If anything I'd say that is the best example of why I made my monster in the first place. You can trade thrust for dV at a cost to make up for a poor exhaust velocity, and you can leverage a good exhaust velocity to get more dV with the downside that you have an upper limit on thrust.

Edit:
The spiker boosts had fallen off my tank value calculator, I need to rework.
Edit2:
Looks like it is ~3.8 miligee instead of about ~2.5 with full improvements.
For comparison the Helion Inertial Drive gets ~575 kps dV at ~3.8 miligee and needs 50 tanks of propellant to do it.
Zeta Helion definitely does that.

It can't intercept every fleet from every angle. But I've been sending my Zeta Helion battleships running around picking off alien groups in transit. (Side note: the best place for an intercept force? Near an alien base so you can intercept groups as they retreat to resupply. My base at Callisto is rapidly becoming devoted to interdicting travel to the alien's Jovian moon base.)


Other side note: it seems like if your ships get immobilized while doing an intercept, they can get stuck unresponsive to all commands on a multi-year drift out of the solar system.
I think I will try out the lower end of thrust a bit. See how that works out.
The magnetic options don't have the best values among them, but they aren't the worst and don't have an entry cost either so I should be able to attempt to use them.
 
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"Good" in this case being that for an 8kt payload it can make ~650kps dV at ~2.5 miligee cruise with only 5 tanks if you use the Antimatter Spiker and Hydron Trap. That last part is the key here, with the maximum hydrogen boost to exhaust velocity it is getting a monstrous amount of exhaust velocity. If I know what chart you mean it is so far to the right that only a handful of the torch options get more exhaust velocity, and those don't even use hydrogen propellant so they can't get the boost to EV.
With that boost there are only a handful of drives with better exhaust velocity.

If anything I'd say that is the best example of why I made my monster in the first place. You can trade thrust for dV at a cost to make up for a poor exhaust velocity, and you can leverage a good exhaust velocity to get more dV with the downside that you have an upper limit on thrust.
Oh. I mean, I can believe that? 2.5 miligee cruise thrust is a lot lower than I would have thought either of us would be considering good.

My Zeta Helions are low two digit miligee cruise, perhaps, but they are two digits.

I mean, you probably can do a number of useful things with it. But I'd expect terrible combat thrust and cruise thrust being a significant limiter on interplanetary transit times.
 
Oh. I mean, I can believe that? 2.5 miligee cruise thrust is a lot lower than I would have thought either of us would be considering good.

My Zeta Helions are low two digit miligee cruise, perhaps, but they are two digits.

I mean, you probably can do a number of useful things with it. But I'd expect terrible combat thrust and cruise thrust being a significant limiter on interplanetary transit times.
If I wasn't willing to say that single digits were good in context I would be back to calling most of fusion shit and suggesting you might as well pay the high propellant costs of the end of the Gas Core Tree then go straight to antimatter. There are only a few high end fusion options like z-pinch and the torches that get thrusts like that, and I still kind of want to see if there are early options to leverage.
 
If I wasn't willing to say that single digits were good in context I would be back to calling most of fusion shit and suggesting you might as well pay the high propellant costs of the end of the Gas Core Tree then go straight to antimatter. There are only a few high end fusion options like z-pinch and the torches that get thrusts like that, and I still kind of want to see if there are early options to leverage.
Well, certainly a fleet whose only combat tactic is to enter in wall formation and stay in wall formation is adequate to win many battles, so you can work with that kind of thrust.

At some point I got sold on 'ships should be able to maneuver in combat', but I admit that that usually only comes up for running down leakers.
 
Well, certainly a fleet whose only combat tactic is to enter in wall formation and stay in wall formation is adequate to win many battles, so you can work with that kind of thrust.

At some point I got sold on 'ships should be able to maneuver in combat', but I admit that that usually only comes up for running down leakers.
Um, that was for Cruise thrust. Combat thrust for that scenario with Adv Helion Torus would be ~227 miligees. That admittedly is a lot less than the over 1 g that z-pinch drives and torches get, but it should give some combat mode maneuverability.
Not enough to run rings around enemies, but I'm not yet sure how much change in direction is really needed for fights right now.
 
Um, that was for Cruise thrust. Combat thrust for that scenario with Adv Helion Torus would be ~227 miligees. That admittedly is a lot less than the over 1 g that z-pinch drives and torches get, but it should give some combat mode maneuverability.
Not enough to run rings around enemies, but I'm not yet sure how much change in direction is really needed for fights right now.
Yeah, I don't think that's enough that you'll find your ships usefully mobile.

Uh. How do you get those numbers? 2.5 * 60 is not ~227. And both Helion Torus drives appear to have thrustCap=60.
 
Yeah, I don't think that's enough that you'll find your ships usefully mobile.

Uh. How do you get those numbers? 2.5 * 60 is not ~227. And both Helion Torus drives appear to have thrustCap=60.
Multiplied the thrust by the thrustCap value, and then used that to get the combat acceleration?
F=MA, so A=F/M, so divide each of the resulting thrust force values by the mass of the ship to get each of the acceleration values.
Let me double check that.
... oh, you missed the edit where I said that I had not been using the Spiker boosts properly in my table, and updated the cruise to ~3.8 with an Antimatter Spiker. ~3.8 * 60 is ~227.

I'm also still unsure what "usefully mobile" looks like given it so far appears to me that turning speed is more important in combat than being able to change direction. That might change as combat AI improves, but currently I don't think the enemy does much that needs more than a bit of a push in one direction or another.
 
You are doing wonderful work with your documentation. As some stuff maybe is bugged expect them to change. But once tables are available it's much less work to update them.

Single milligee cruise imho is very bad as it doesn't allow you to utilize your big delta vee on shorter transits.

With new mechanic to also demand thrust to intercept it will really change how stuff works.
 
Multiplied the thrust by the thrustCap value, and then used that to get the combat acceleration?
F=MA, so A=F/M, so divide each of the resulting thrust force values by the mass of the ship to get each of the acceleration values.
Let me double check that.
... oh, you missed the edit where I said that I had not been using the Spiker boosts properly in my table, and updated the cruise to ~3.8 with an Antimatter Spiker. ~3.8 * 60 is ~227.

I'm also still unsure what "usefully mobile" looks like given it so far appears to me that turning speed is more important in combat than being able to change direction. That might change as combat AI improves, but currently I don't think the enemy does much that needs more than a bit of a push in one direction or another.
I missed the second update where you got the corrected numbers, yeah. That makes sense.

I would absolutely consider buying more turn speed if the game had a useful way to do so. Unfortunately the only way to be faster on the pivot is to pick a smaller hull or (rather substantially) reduce mass, neither of which tends to be a practical solution for major warships.


I just started producing a new model of corvette that uses 3x Zeta Boron/Flow Stabilized to hit something like 70 miligee cruise, 4 g (there's a hard-cap there it seems) combat acceleration, and also has over 1000 kps delta-V. That should be able to run down anything in the solar system with ease. I'm not sure whether it'll actually be useful, but at worst it should get me an achievement.
 
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