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I was thinking about the losses the Rachni took and went to look at their fleet doctrine and I'm a little worried now.

Intelligence Briefings: Rachni Fleet Doctrine
It's rather amusing how offended people sometimes get, when they're informed that the Rachni's fleet doctrine bears the most resemblance to elcor ground support doctrine, of all the military schools of thought in the galaxy. Surely, they say, the Swarm could not possibly have conquered a third of the galaxy with the elcor's way of doing things.

Regrettably for those people's pride, it does in fact seem to be the case. The Rachni's maneuvers indicate a strong focus on army-first thinking. The rachni habitually colonize anything that they can survive, and they react with insane hostility to the presence of pre-existing sapient populations on those bodies. Their fleet and their army work together seamlessly, to the point where we speculate that they have procedures for a merged chain of command during assault operations, much as the elcor do. This means one thing: if the Rachni want a planet, they take it. If they secure orbital supremacy and the ability to land troops, there's no army in the galaxy that can survive the hell that follows.

That said, this we already knew. It's not a revelation. That the rachni have optimized literally every branch of their military to the task of storming planets doesn't add to that. We are interested in the implications for the naval war.

Let's start with the obvious: fleet composition. We know the Rachni to produce some dedicated bombardment vessels. These vessels typically come in frigate displacement for easy mass production, and deploy small mass accelerators and dedicated orbit-to-surface/air/ship missiles. These vessels possess limited naval combat abilities; their main guns are too small to threaten large warships and can't reliably aquire small ones, and their missiles are not designed for orbital ship-to-ship combat. Furthermore, they typically don't possess even armor appropriate to their size, as they are not meant for combat, and do not have combat-grade drives. Slow, fragile, toothless targets, in other words. However, we do not consider these vessels when examining Rachni fleet doctrine, as these vessels do not operate as part of a battle line, and are in fact militarily negligible in a void combat. We thus exclude them from our analysis, going forward.

While the Rachni do produce dedicated bombardment fleets, they still have a doctrinal role for naval warships in support of ground operations. Dedicated bombardment craft, as discussed, cannot function in a naval combat. Thus, in order to launch ground operations in front systems which can conceivably be threatened, the Rachni must use its warship fleet. This drives their production priorities accordingly, and their navy remains focused on ground support above all else. The fleets the Rachni produce to these specifications tend to be relatively small -- comparable to Virmirean Battle Fleets, as opposed to RoR War Fleets -- in order to maximize the ground they can cover.

Much like the elcor, the Rachni utilize an extremely cruiser-heavy force, with dreadnoughts in a secondary role and screening ships relegated to tertiary roles. The reason for this is simple economics. Dreadnoughts are gross overkill for planetary bombardment unless one intends to reduce the planet to dust -- which the Rachni obviously do not generally want, even as tolerant as they are of extreme conditions. That said, they remain fearsome weapons in any environment, ground or space. In space, their use is obvious. On the ground, a mass accelerator is a mass accelerator -- they can modulate the strength of their fire, after all. Dreadnoughts thus receive a secondary focus. Frigates and corvettes, while mildly useful for their ability to enter the atmosphere and deliver precision bombardment to hardened installations, must expose themselves to return fire in order to do so. Given that atmospheric craft and missiles already perform such roles perfectly well, there is little need to risk expensive void warships for such missions, and screening vessels see little investment.

Cruisers, meanwhile, can project mass-destruction firepower across the surface of a planet within minutes of the need being identified, are cheap to mass-produce compared to dreadnoughts, and are completely invincible to any sustained attempts at retaliation. They epitomize the strengths of orbital dominance over a ground campaign, and therefore form the bulk of any Rachni fleet.

This has a number of implications when engaging the Rachni fleets. First of all, the challenges. A heavy cruiser focus means that the Rachni have the ships to respond to any kind of situation. Patrol duties? Split off some CLs. Counter raiding? CLs with a CA in command. Scouting? CLs. Artillery battle? Massed cruiser fire. Fleet melee? Design your CLs with torpedo tubes and watch numbers tell. Cruisers are versatile and cost-effective ships, and rachni doctrine exploits this to the hilt. They enjoy significant amounts of tactical flexibility. This holds especially true given that, while frigates remain a low priority for rachni fleets, their sheer numbers mean that there is by no means a small amount of them in any given fight, and they do still field dreadnoughts. The rachni lean heavily on their cruisers, shoring up their situational weaknesses with larger or smaller warships.

Now, our advantages. While the rachni are flexible, and know how to use that flexibility, they lack specialization. According to Admiral Kassa'Malan, the Citadel's combined fleets still adhere to Mahakian doctrine, and thus field an extravagant number of dreadnoughts. At the extreme ranges opening a fight, they dominate the engagement thanks to the Rachni's tendency to de-emphasize dreadnoughts. Rachni fleets are also extremely brittle. Their screens, while objectively large, are proportionally small, and once they are depleted, a rachni fleet is very vulnerable to torpedo runs from screening vessels. All of these factors add up to low tactical endurance. Cruisers perform well, but not wonderfully, at any range, but cannot counter the strengths of a more specialized force. Once their large and small ships take losses, the Rachni lack the support they need to compete in a specialist's favored environment.

In particular, this paradigm means promising things for Virmire. We have noticed in past engagements that the Rachni rarely, in situations with rough numerical parity, field enough dreadnoughts to decisively exploit the inferiority of our battlecruisers at extreme range. We have been consistently able to close to more favorable ranges, and once we enter a melee, the rachni completely lack enough of a screening force to prevent a BC from dominating the fight. We have used this, repeatedly and to great effect, in the campaigns of the past few years. Virmire simply produces more megatonnage of capital ships per fleet.

Moving forward, we should bear in mind that the Rachni will likely innovate in response to our developments. In particular, now that we speculate that the front has stabilized and the Rachni do not have to focus on maintaining their previously crushing levels of attrition, we expect them to begin fielding their own battlecruiser designs within the next few years. Indeed, our successes and those of the Citadel and Terminus on other fronts may prompt a radical change in Rachni naval doctrine. Virmire must remain an active participant in the war in order to track changes in their doctrine. We have innovated; so too shall they. For now, however, we have a good understanding of their operations.

If we go off what this is saying it means that most of their industry is geared to making cruisers not dreadnaughts, not a bad thing except we know they have battlecruisers now. Their gonna learn eventually how to make use of them but my big worry is that if most of their ships are currently designed with ground support in mind.

We could end up seeing them shift design priority to void combat and them taking our battle cruiser concept and making a rather nasty naval doctrine and with more optimised vessel designs in support in the future.


Do I hope they maintain their current doctrine, yes I do but let's be real most of their set backs are in space not on the ground so give it a decade or two and they'll know how to use battlecruisers well enough and their fleets will have cycled in new designs for us to fight.

So we've probably only got a short window to exploit our new ships tech before the Rachni shore up their inefficiency with barriers and more specialised warships.

Admittedly this is me being a pessimist so I hope I'm wrong but I don't think this war is gonna be over any time soon.
 
I really, really doubt that the rachni only just now started thinking about doing reverse-engineering to figure out how barriers work.

I'm pretty sure they've been doing that for decades, because the examples of barrier tech are right there. Even if they are making a calculated decision not to put barriers on their own ships, that's not all there is.

They'd want to understand OUR barriers, be able to foresee advances in the technology, want to know if any obvious improvements to it are possible for them but not for us, and want to be able to make realistic assessments about what it would actually cost to put barriers aboard their ships.

So I suspect that by now, they've already done much of the work (say, 70% to 90%) of the work it would require to start building a class of capital ships with tactically useful barriers. Maybe not barriers as good as ours, but good enough to really matter.
 
The thing is, you aren't just suddenly able to produce a tech because you collect a bunch of scrap of it. Reverse engineering is a quicker process, but it's still a process, one that requires funding, time, and manpower. The Rachni wouldn't have assigned any of those things sufficiently until after completing there own military review year 33, and not following up on it until year 34.
The Rachni have their own independent RnD programs.
They didnt build their battlecruisers from any captured Virmirean ships, after all; the one BC that we lost in combat was safely scuttled. Reverse-engineering gives them a massive leg up, but its not the whole of it.

As for the time factor?
We, as in Virmire, have a lot of our currentgen ships based on Quarian tech that we stole wholesale after Resurgent Grace, then iterated on. Our currentgen Korun-class battlecruiser is explicitly based on it, even though the Quarians had no BCs.

By contrast, the Rachni have had more than 36 years of currentgen asari and salarian warships to salvage on the battlefield.
I dont think there's a relevant tech gap to consider.
Also, reverse engineered tech typically doesn't start at the level of development the race your copying could use it. Odds are even if the Rachni start putting barriers on their ships next year, their not going to gave more than the marginal benefits our barriers have us at the quest start, maybe a little better. There will still be a tech gap for probably another decade, under the worst of circumstances.
Brood Warriors literally have like five times the mass of eezo that an asari might have, and those guys have barriers.
And they have been fighting this war for more than three decades at this point.
They have literally three decades of asari/salarian wreckage.

There's very little chance that they dont know how to build kinetic barriers.

My personal guess is that they might just not think that the cost-benefit equation is currently worth it.
Doctrinal choice, basically, when you are mass-producing cruisers as your primary workhorse, and your crews are attritable, cheap and plentiful might be your priority. Not like your sapients are on the cruiser.

I was thinking about the losses the Rachni took and went to look at their fleet doctrine and I'm a little worried now.
Nah. None of this:
Cruisers, meanwhile, can project mass-destruction firepower across the surface of a planet within minutes of the need being identified, are cheap to mass-produce compared to dreadnoughts, and are completely invincible to any sustained attempts at retaliation. They epitomize the strengths of orbital dominance over a ground campaign, and therefore form the bulk of any Rachni fleet.

This has a number of implications when engaging the Rachni fleets. First of all, the challenges. A heavy cruiser focus means that the Rachni have the ships to respond to any kind of situation. Patrol duties? Split off some CLs. Counter raiding? CLs with a CA in command. Scouting? CLs. Artillery battle? Massed cruiser fire. Fleet melee? Design your CLs with torpedo tubes and watch numbers tell. Cruisers are versatile and cost-effective ships, and rachni doctrine exploits this to the hilt. They enjoy significant amounts of tactical flexibility. This holds especially true given that, while frigates remain a low priority for rachni fleets, their sheer numbers mean that there is by no means a small amount of them in any given fight, and they do still field dreadnoughts. The rachni lean heavily on their cruisers, shoring up their situational weaknesses with larger or smaller warships.
Has changed.
I dont expect it to. Especially given the realities of Rachni biology.
Why would you invest more in crew protection if the majority of the crew is disposable?

If any techs come along that they can include cheaply without ballooning unit cost or increasing production time?
We'll see it. If not, I doubt it.
 
There's a part of me that really wants to let the A-Y cat out of the bag. Partly just to piss off the Asari (which I know is probably not the smartest move), but I do think it could lead to a better outcome the A-Y in the very long term.
But for now, I am satisfied to maintain the Asari "party line" so to speak.

[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
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Nah. None of this:
Has changed.
I dont expect it to. Especially given the realities of Rachni biology.
Why would you invest more in crew protection if the majority of the crew is disposable?

If any techs come along that they can include cheaply without ballooning unit cost or increasing production time?
We'll see it. If not, I doubt it.
While I agree in with most of this, there's the issue of cost-benefit involved. If spending an extra 20% per ship means each ship performs 200% better? That's worthwhile. I'm sure there's a more reasonable set of numbers involved for the barrier calculation. But its not just the screw protection that's improved by Barriers, its how long that warship can keep firing. If the barriers they can build makes it so it takes the enemy an 3 shots to kill a ship from an original 1 shot? Well, that's more ships alive and firing at the enemies ships, removing more of the enemies ship further reducing the amount of fire allowing more ships to be around to keep firing and causing a positive feedback loop.

Where that balance lies for the Rachni we don't know. But it seems certain at some point relatively soon they will end up deciding barriers are worthwhile.
 
So I suspect that by now, they've already done much of the work (say, 70% to 90%) of the work it would require to start building a class of capital ships with tactically useful barriers. Maybe not barriers as good as ours, but good enough to really matter.

Agreed I'm pretty sure they already have them figured out wars dragged on to long not to have cracked how it works and just how to implement it.

I think the main limiting factor they will have is how quickly they cycle in their warships for an upgrade and to get them back out. As it stands we'll have time even once their introduced because they'll probably focus on the citadel councils front and leave the older warships in the north since we're the less important frontline for now.

Why would you invest more in crew protection if the majority of the crew is disposable?

I doubt they'll care about the crews but warships especially the big ones are not easily replaced so they'll try to keep those alive especially if barriers are getting better. Issue is even if they have crap barriers it makes our lives difficult because our battle cruisers won't have as easy a time sniping dreadnaughts at long range which means artillery duels which we already can't really match them in will get harder due to our fleet doctrine.

Actually how many dreadnaughts do we field in a main battle fleet?
 
Agreed I'm pretty sure they already have them figured out wars dragged on to long not to have cracked how it works and just how to implement it.
How to implement it isn't going to be so clear to them. They clearly devoted active resources to building battlecruisers, but used them like dreadnoughts. However ready to add Barriers to their ships they are or aren't, odds are they misunderstand how best to exploit the advantages barriers give them.
If spending an extra 20% per ship means each ship performs 200% better? That's worthwhile.
It's certainly going to cost more than that. Their is no industry for barrier tech parts in any of their 11 clusters, they have to redesign there ships, retool their shipyards, ect. Also, capitol ships size makes it likely a lot more expensive than 20% to apply shielding technology. Longterm it will save them money, but how aware of that they are is circumstantial, and they may hesitate to equiped barriers to all but the most expensive vessels.
I doubt they'll care about the crews but warships especially the big ones are not easily replaced so they'll try to keep those alive especially if barriers are getting better.
Indeed. What might happen is that dreadnoughts and Battle cruisers get barriers to ensure their survival and their lighter classes don't get them. How much they recognize the value of barriers likely depends on the degree of success their own military review action post wrath of the swarm succeeded. Like our Ablative Armor it's possible they'll start with only barrier capitol ships and gradually add them to other things over a long time as the tech proves successful, or don't, because they can afford to lose certain ship classes more readily than we can.
Issue is even if they have crap barriers it makes our lives difficult because our battle cruisers won't have as easy a time sniping dreadnaughts at long range which means artillery duels which we already can't really match them in will get harder due to our fleet doctrine.
It doesn't quite work like that. Until very recently, barriers simply weren't effective enough to make an appreciable difference in prior battles. Sometime in the last decade, barriers passed some threshold of efficiency, recovery, and damage absorption needed to be "lethal to lack".

Even if they take the time to study their latest scrap tech collection(and thats a lot of scrap) they need to finish collecting it first...
He noticed a few things, when he arrived. First, that the system was a wreck. Even stationary defenses were still being reestablished. Second, that any capacity the relay system had to sustain economic throughput was just gone. The Rachni will struggle to move goods in and out of the southern reaches of their empire until they repair the Horsehead Nebula's relay system.
Which is going to be rather difficult with all of it in with the relay somewhat damaged. So there first Barriers are likely going to be the marginal benefit barriers we had for most of the war that don't make enough of a difference to merit a change of tactics.
The review has borne incredible fruit. Mira has correctly divined the next shift in naval combat, and has already run doctrine studies addressing how to respond to it. Virmire is, at the moment, the best-prepared polity in the galaxy to counter kinetic barriers, except possibly for the rachni, depending on what they've been doing since Horsehead. Furthermore, she has identified several technological improvements within your reach that you could apply to your warships to help in this new kind of battlefield. Meanwhile, the Army has correctly identified that there's no way to make fighting the rachni cheap -- but it might be possible to make the cost industrial rather than biological. Both of these represent key insights into the evolving landscape of war, and if followed through on, will immeasurably assist your ability to wage war on the Swarm. In fact, just by virtue of knowing this information, you will already be performing better.
Which will be countered somewhat by our greater critical success at military review. We are ready to exploit effective barriers to the fullest, and to counter barrier tech in general, even before our new ships finish. Once we have the new ships, well, at this point our capitol ships are likely more durable than the dreadnoughts the Council sent into Horsehead. Rachni 1st gen barrier Battlecruisers and Dreadnoughts aren't going to cut it.

Rachni aren't going to be easily snipe-able anymore, but their barriers are going to maybe buy them a chance to withdraw or buy them a little time rather than grant them the advantage to sustained long range to extreme range combat with minimal damage the way ours do, and we are going to absolutely crush them in capitol ship warfare.

If you go reread swarm event, you'll see that we repeatedly trounced them in artillery duels during it, coming out the Victory with losses equivalent to ⅓ of a battle fleet to the slightly more than 3½ battle fleets they lost. With our new capitol ships set to be more durable than they were back then, sustained artillery exchanges are both currently in our favor and going to become more so as our capitol ships are replaced with the new models.
 
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The CSP (Commonwealth Security Party) is an existential threat to the Virimire we all know and love.

When you hear "CSP" you should think "Dalatrasses and Matriarchs (both inside and outside Attica) subverting our democracy to regain control over their species".

54% of our population is Salarian, most of whom are not politically active. That's a huge number of votes sitting there waiting to be mobilized by the Dalatrasses against us and against the democracy we have in Virmire:

Your largest demographic, the salarians are also by far your least politically mobilized. Dalatrasses remain the primary power brokers in their society, and civic engagement among the males is low.

And the Matriarchs and Matrons will be right there with them, using their enormous power and influence to roll the clock back:

Matrons and matriarchs who remember the old Council days are alarmed by the swift changes Attican culture are wreaking upon their children, and tend to swerve towards the CSP as a result, bringing their formidable heft to the picture.

But what are those changes they want to undo? What does the CSP want?

They want to go back to the good ol' days where the Dalatrass and Matriarch élite ruled their own species, and decisions were made by the respective racial elites. They want their traditional power and influence back, and they don't want the masses in their races to be able to freely vote how they want. I wonder, are they even loyal to Virmire, or are they more loyal to their species, and their species' governments?

As a colony under the Council's direction, we did not hold an equal position to governments managing the affairs of entire races. In declaring that we will not return to that position, we have set ourselves up for a direct conflict with those governments. Virmire sets a precedent that is inherently threatening. The associate races define themselves as the rightful rulers of their entire species. We, a multispecies republic, directly violate what they define as their sovereignty.
 
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While I agree in with most of this, there's the issue of cost-benefit involved. If spending an extra 20% per ship means each ship performs 200% better? That's worthwhile. I'm sure there's a more reasonable set of numbers involved for the barrier calculation. But its not just the screw protection that's improved by Barriers, its how long that warship can keep firing. If the barriers they can build makes it so it takes the enemy an 3 shots to kill a ship from an original 1 shot? Well, that's more ships alive and firing at the enemies ships, removing more of the enemies ship further reducing the amount of fire allowing more ships to be around to keep firing and causing a positive feedback loop.

Where that balance lies for the Rachni we don't know. But it seems certain at some point relatively soon they will end up deciding barriers are worthwhile.
Is it though?
From the front page:
Yes -- but just barely. Barriers are a tech hardly a century old, and the ensuing state of constant, economy-draining war since their invention has not been conducive to improving them in grand leaps and bounds. Compared to the barrier tech of the games, these barriers are incredibly inefficient and weak. Even against their contemporaries, they stop only a few rounds. The first barriers were pioneered on dreadnoughts, it took decades of work to scale them down to smaller vessels, and you only just unlocked mass production infantry barriers within the last decade.

UPDATE: As of Year 33 Results: 512 GS, it has become more than clear that kinetic barriers have matured significantly and are the next grand evolution in warfare. Combat takes much longer now, and losses are less decisive among forces that have them.

Kinetic barriers only recently became viable.
I think currentgen Virmirean BC shields can stop three peer hits.*checks* No, currentgen BC shields can take 5x shots from a dreadnought spinal. I quote:
In fact, we are currently on your second entire class and conceptual generation for battlecruisers.

Your first design was the Kamar-class.

Frankly, this class was a lemon. While it was decisive in its role, this was primarily due to luck and good commanders. The ship was, conceptually, an elongated Strala-class heavy cruiser (your workhorse design as of the start of the Wars, and indeed, of the quest). In-universe, this is the reason why battlecruisers are classified as battleship-ified cruisers (BCs) -- they literally began life as exactly that. This led to many questionable decisions born of sheer oversight. While the drives were improved to take advantage of increased power generation, the shields were not and the armor was, in addition to being deliberately light for its size, an awkward extension of the Strala's armor layout, which was not at the time understood to just fundamentally not work for a ship a kilometer long. The Kamar, like the Strala, lost shields on the first dreadnought hit, was crippled on the second, and was destroyed on the third. This did not serve well on a ship built to be a primary fleet combatant; while Virmire found roles for battlecruisers, a fleet battle is not their favorite playground. However, it had heavy firepower, and its intrinsic advantages partnered with good use and sheer luck to grant it a successful career.

Refits over the course of its lifespan primarily focused on improvements to the kinetic barriers, allowing the barriers to withstand three dreadnought rounds, as well as a secondary race to upgrade drives and armor in order to try and improve survivability without losing speed. However, the armor scheme handicapped it, and once the successor class was designed, the Kamar was phased out one-for-one with its successors, the individual ships being scrapped in order to recycle the materials. The first generation of battlecruiser designs, the Kamar holds an odd place in the Navy's heart; an innovative leap forward in response to very specific needs, but, in retrospect, an embarrassing first attempt that lucked its way into survival.

Your second -- and current -- design is the Durrahe Korun-class.

This class was built from the ground up to include quarian shipbuilding techniques and suit Beshkarian doctrine, as well as integrating lessons learned from the Kamar. The most crucial step began before the first designs were ever made, when Minister K'Sharr ruled that the next battlecruiser design would not be intended as a Battle Fleet capital ship. Instead, they were built from the ground up as a raid leader, with each battlecruiser expected to operate as the flagship of its own task force detached from the main body of its parent fleet while on tour. This demanded very different design decisions, beginning with the controversial decision to reduce their length to 800 meters from the Kamar-class's kilometer length. While this significantly slashed firepower and put the Koruns at a substantial disadvantage against enemy dreadnoughts in any environment but their favored melee, the attendant decision to retain the same type and number of power generators as the Devastator-class kilometer dreadnoughts, which would enter service a year after the Koruns, meant that the smaller spinal cannon freed up a massive amount of power for other functions.

Thus, in addition to unusually extensive command, control, and communications facilities, improvements focused on speed, barrier strength, and heat management. The Koruns match the latest rachni heavy cruisers for speed, and significantly overmatch the rear-line garrison forces they most typically engage. In STL flight, they are nimble and fast, and large heat radiation banks enable it to remain in combat for far longer than most ships. Barriers also saw fierce investment, with the incredible new reserves of power along with incremental improvements in barrier technology enabling barriers that can soak five dreadnought shots before failing. The Korun's barriers are -- albeit barely, thanks to more sophisticated Citadel designs -- the strongest in the galaxy for the ship's size. In addition to power, you found space in the mass budget for these improvements with a shamelessly-stolen quarian technique an innovative new capital-class armor scheme, a variant of which also saw adoption on the Devastators. This significantly improved survivability at a fraction of the mass costs of last-generation armor designs, enabling unshielded Koruns to take a dreadnought slug and remain combat operational (the second still tends to cripple them, but that is a 100% increase in performance and you're happy to have it).

A fully-mature, second-generation design, the Durrahe Korun-class battlecruiser is a point of unambiguous pride for the Navy. While it struggles against dreadnoughts, it remains capable of dominating cruisers, and has found a rock-solid role as a raider. Some members of the design remain in service with the Battle Fleets to grant an extra measure of punch in the melee, but the second generation of battlecruisers is defined by a specific focus on a primary mission outside of fleet combat.

Your third BC class remains prospective, but closer to reality every day.

While the Durrahe Koruns were expected to remain in service for many years before replacement, the reactor technology gleaned from Yulair relics has changed everything. The increase in power generation is insane. It is no hyperbole to say that your entire navy is now conceptually -- if not functionally, since you have yet to begin mass production -- obsolete as a result of this single invention. Shipbuilding companies received some of the first prototype models and have submitted several designs taking advantage of the sheer amount of power it provides. Some are talking of a return to kilometer designs in order to revisit the days of a battlecruiser being a brawling dreadnought; others talk of a ship capable of outmaneuvering older CLs, or mounting the most formidable barriers, bar none and by a huge margin, in the entire galaxy. Whatever the case may be, the next battlecruiser class promises a lot.

In short, the battlecruiser design has evolved significantly over the course of the quest, both physically and in terms of its doctrinal role.
Im personally betting we are going back to kilometer-long BCs, given the combination of Yulairtech power techniques and the new, lighter armor scheme simultaneously coming to maturity. Especially since the Rachni are building BCs of their own, and potentially putting barriers on their capitals and maybe even heavy cruisers.

With a 30% increase in available power, if thats evenly distributed, we potentially see +30% to everything(30% to barrier strength, 30% to drive power, 30% to jammer strength and active sensors etc).

But even if/when the rachni adopt barriers, they might not use the same proportion of the ship power budget on it that we or the Terminus Alliance or the Citadel fleets tend to use.


I doubt they'll care about the crews but warships especially the big ones are not easily replaced so they'll try to keep those alive especially if barriers are getting better. Issue is even if they have crap barriers it makes our lives difficult because our battle cruisers won't have as easy a time sniping dreadnaughts at long range which means artillery duels which we already can't really match them in will get harder due to our fleet doctrine.

Actually how many dreadnaughts do we field in a main battle fleet?
Does it provide enough survivability to be worth an entirely new line of spare parts, and the extra downtime for maintenance? Are the extra cooling requirements worthwhile, or is it better to save that capacity for cooling their guns?

The rachni might have decided it doesnt make sense on a strategic level for their fleets and doctrine, especially if they have good enough materials science to bridge most of the gap in survivability by stacking armor instead, which doesnt require power to operate or cooling to dissipate heat, or extra maintenance time for a new system.

The Rachni run elcor fleet doctrine, with its focus on planetary invasion, so barriers might have made less sense than armor.
And as they had 140 capital ships in reserve, despite capitals being a secondary ship type for them, they obviously werent running out of dreadnought production capacity.

As the lore suggests, the advantages provided by barriers were fairly marginal until very recently.

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A raiding fleet is half the size of a battle fleet.
Since a raiding fleet has 3x BCs, Im guessing that a Battle Fleet has six capital ships.
So either 6x dreadnoughts, or 3x dreadnoughts + 3x battlecruisers. Or 4x dreadnoughts + 2x battlecruisers.

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Its also worth remembering that the Rachni are Indoctrinated.
That means there's hardcoded imperatives that they have to plan around, which probably limits their flexibility more than a little bit. Much the same way the Reapers kept coming down to fight infantry battles on the ground.
 
Does it provide enough survivability to be worth an entirely new line of spare parts, and the extra downtime for maintenance? Are the extra cooling requirements worthwhile, or is it better to save that capacity for cooling their guns?

The rachni might have decided it doesnt make sense on a strategic level for their fleets and doctrine, especially if they have good enough materials science to bridge most of the gap in survivability by stacking armor instead, which doesnt require power to operate or cooling to dissipate heat, or extra maintenance time for a new system.
Here's the thing. If the rachni were like a normal species with normal R&D priorities (they may not be), they'd almost certainly be quietly, on the side building prototype capital ships as testbeds of the barrier technology. These testbeds might not be suitable for mass production (see prototype jet fighter aircraft like the Gloster Pioneer and the P-59 Airacomet), but they would enable the rachni to develop a baseline of technical knowledge and let them make informed decisions about the probable costs and advantages of deploying barrier technology on a larger scale.

And if you have a program like that, it really, really doesn't take that long to start widespread production of barriers once it becomes obvious that they are necessary. Some time, yes, but the inertia doesn't last forever.

At this point, I'd suggest that you might want to stop and consider the direction and point of this argument. Are you leading up to a specific conclusion you consider probable? And if so, what?

Or are you are simply repeating "we know the rachni had reasons for not introducing barriers, and we cannot be 100% certain they will do so immediately." Because the first of those is now well known, and the second is extremely obvious without being helpful. Any argument in the form "we cannot be 100% certain what the enemy will do" is axiomatically correct, of course! But often it is still beneficial to plan on the assumption that we can predict likely enemy actions. It's better than simply sitting there and making no plans on the grounds that the enemy will act randomly or arbitrarily.

The Rachni run elcor fleet doctrine, with its focus on planetary invasion, so barriers might have made less sense than armor.
And as they had 140 capital ships in reserve, despite capitals being a secondary ship type for them, they obviously werent running out of dreadnought production capacity.
On the other hand, if they have a healthy reserve of capital ships, suggesting overproduction capacity, it suggests that delay or disruption to their production capacity might not actually have such a serious effect on their ability to keep up acceptable numbers. In effect they might be trading in 100 future reserve ships to make 300 frontline combatant ships significantly more survivable. And if they were planning to have 250 reserve ships anyway, then cutting that to 150 might be worth the trouble!

=====
Its also worth remembering that the Rachni are Indoctrinated.
That means there's hardcoded imperatives that they have to plan around, which probably limits their flexibility more than a little bit. Much the same way the Reapers kept coming down to fight infantry battles on the ground.
Probably true. On the other hand, neither the Reapers, nor the Collectors, nor Cerberus, feel compelled to abstain from the use of barriers. I doubt the rachni are under such restrictions either, even if indoctrination may be making them more technologically conservative than they would otherwise be.

Also, I think one reason the Reapers fight infantry battles is because they don't actually want to render numerous garden worlds totally uninhabitable per cycle. They do seem to be planning to keep the cycles going indefinitely, and that becomes impossible if habitable planets are destroyed that frequently. But that's a side note.
 
Do other people have infantry barriers? Like, we had some crazy researcher get struck by lightning to figure it out. I'm sure the other factions *could* have figured it out faster than us, but I dunno if they've bothered trying to scale it down that much.
 
Does it provide enough survivability to be worth an entirely new line of spare parts, and the extra downtime for maintenance? Are the extra cooling requirements worthwhile, or is it better to save that capacity for cooling their guns?

The rachni might have decided it doesnt make sense on a strategic level for their fleets and doctrine, especially if they have good enough materials science to bridge most of the gap in survivability by stacking armor instead, which doesnt require power to operate or cooling to dissipate heat, or extra maintenance time for a new system.

At one point they probably did, that was before the battle at Horsehead Nebula, the problem is that they had to deploy their reserve which meant they're going to look at their navy because when you need three times the number of capital vessels to beat someone it's not good and deploying the reserve meant something went wrong.

It's not a case of bridging the gap with pure armour they suffered one hell of a loss at Horsehead Nebula, sure they held it but they lost so many vessels only a foolish enemy would not seriously look at what happened and say they can keep going as they are. Especially with their industry, they are a hyperpower if they can afford to leave 140 capital vessels in reserve then they can afford to lose a bit of production to set up the industry needed to build barriers. Will they apply barriers to everything right away. I doubt it but anything bigger than a heavy cruiser could very well get one and be considered worth it.

Especially when our starting barriers on our heavy cruiser could only take 1 hit from a dreadnaught before breaking, it's not a lot but then again it's a dreadnaught hitting the ship. We've built Battlecruisers which are excellent at knocking out cruisers, applying barriers to them makes sense and what we could destroy in 1-2 hits now needs 3 or 4 with even bad barriers and with Rachni out-producing everyone in ships it will cause us issues when they swarm us.

The war has gone on for 58 or 59 years, and things have changed so they might begin building ships with barriers. As it stands I'll hope that it'll be at least be 2-3 decades before we see any real Rachni ships with good barriers or even on smaller ships but if we assume the worst they could already have testbed designs ready to go and their only 1-5 years away from fielding capitals with at least our starting barriers.

Do other people have infantry barriers? Like, we had some crazy researcher get struck by lightning to figure it out. I'm sure the other factions *could* have figured it out faster than us, but I dunno if they've bothered trying to scale it down that much.

I'd bet good money that the Citadel and more advanced polities have figured it out, though I doubt they're very good and are probably better on Special forces or vehicles.
 
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[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.

[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
The one absolute fact about the still in the works Capitol ships is that durability has shot way up from the combination of Ablative Armor and Yulair Reactors, and we have our success at military review increasing the effectiveness at combating barriers if they show up, and for exploiting the advantages of effective barriers. Whatever happens in that regard, we are set to dominate capitol ship combat for a good while.

Whatever the case of the Rachni Recognizing the value of barrier tech or not, uju's post does clarify that it took the foremost polities in the galaxy actively working to incorporate the technology for decades to get to omni compatibility with ships of all sizes, and decades more to become an effective battle winner.

The Rachni are not going to have nearly that level of progress on Barrier tech given they haven't even tried to implement it beyond, possibly, some prototypes a few decades prior, because the galaxy had until recently not given them justification to revisit the issue of barrier tech. A polity does not devote resources, manpower, or shipyard space to the testing of a technology it has dismissed the value of without incentive, which was not provided until year 33, the earliest they could have performed their own military review.

Their source of more modern barrier tech is ton of scrap in Horsehead nebula, which the damage to the relay network of creates problems collecting. They at worst understand the science of out dated Barrier tech, and have no experience in applying it to their warships in an effective manner. Like original barriers and our new ablative armor, Rachni first gen Barrier tech will be logically applied to some capitol ships while they experiment with it's incorporation before moving to mass production, and likely take time to filter down to other classes of vessels.
 
The Rachni are not going to have nearly that level of progress on Barrier tech given they haven't even tried to implement it beyond, possibly, some prototypes a few decades prior, because the galaxy had until recently not given them justification to revisit the issue of barrier tech. A polity does not devote resources, manpower, or shipyard space to the testing of a technology it has dismissed the value of without incentive, which was not provided until year 33, the earliest they could have performed their own military review.
I disagree.

First, because ongoing naval skirmishes would have provided continued illustration that barriers were not worthless, forcing the rachni to continually re-evaluate "have we made the right decision" to avoid getting caught horribly by surprise and losing on an even worse scale than they did at the Horsehead Nebula. The incentive never went away.

Second, because the cost of maintaining a testbed program (i.e. take aging cruiser, retrofit with barriers custom-built, see how it works in test fire) is small, very small, relative to the overall scale of the rachni navy. This would be part of a larger testing program they'd almost have to have, assuming they have active R&D at all and aren't just being puppeted by the Reapers to build what the Reapers want. In which case the Reapers would be telling them to start building barriers pretty soon, I should think.

Third, because I'm fairly sure that the rachni have been capturing wrecked Alliance and Citadel ships on a semi-regular basis throughout the conflict, not just a single huge spike of them very recently.

I think it would be perilous for us to assume that they are starting from "effectively nothing" and have not been making ongoing efforts to understand and duplicate this technology, just because their current frontline warships (many of which were built several years ago) do not have it.
 
Do other people have infantry barriers? Like, we had some crazy researcher get struck by lightning to figure it out. I'm sure the other factions *could* have figured it out faster than us, but I dunno if they've bothered trying to scale it down that much.

I'd bet good money that the Citadel and more advanced polities have figured it out, though I doubt they're very good and are probably better on Special forces or vehicles.
from what I remember we were informed on recontact that yes, other polities had better infantry barriers than ours
 
Here's the thing. If the rachni were like a normal species with normal R&D priorities (they may not be), they'd almost certainly be quietly, on the side building prototype capital ships as testbeds of the barrier technology. These testbeds might not be suitable for mass production (see prototype jet fighter aircraft like the Gloster Pioneer and the P-59 Airacomet), but they would enable the rachni to develop a baseline of technical knowledge and let them make informed decisions about the probable costs and advantages of deploying barrier technology on a larger scale.

And if you have a program like that, it really, really doesn't take that long to start widespread production of barriers once it becomes obvious that they are necessary. Some time, yes, but the inertia doesn't last forever.

At this point, I'd suggest that you might want to stop and consider the direction and point of this argument. Are you leading up to a specific conclusion you consider probable? And if so, what?
Yes, nothing here seems unlikely.
You'll notice that I have previously stated that its almost a given that in the course of more than thirty years of war and multiple annihilated Citadel fleets and conquered Citadel clusters, that the Rachni would have picked up barrier technology.

Doesnt seem likely the people who deployed BCs without reverse-engineering samples couldnt figure out barriertech with it.

That makes it a doctrinal choice.
Or maybe an industrial base bottleneck, assuming that deploying barriertech requires stuff that their technological base is having trouble mass producing, like you see with China and 3nm computer chips.


Its not an argument, its commentary.
Maybe someone will notice something I havent.


Or are you are simply repeating "we know the rachni had reasons for not introducing barriers, and we cannot be 100% certain they will do so immediately." Because the first of those is now well known, and the second is extremely obvious without being helpful. Any argument in the form "we cannot be 100% certain what the enemy will do" is axiomatically correct, of course! But often it is still beneficial to plan on the assumption that we can predict likely enemy actions. It's better than simply sitting there and making no plans on the grounds that the enemy will act randomly or arbitrarily.
*points*
You'll notice that I explicitly said I expected the next generation of BC, and Attican warships in general, to be designed with the expectation of the Rachni deploying barriers in their dreadnoughts and BCs, and potentially heavy cruisers as well.


This discussion, at least on my end, was for figuring out plausible reasons for why not so far.
Because if it wasnt a doctrinal choice, it points at a weak point in their industry or their strategic planning or even their RnD/intelligence forecasting. One that might be exploitable.

On the other hand, if they have a healthy reserve of capital ships, suggesting overproduction capacity, it suggests that delay or disruption to their production capacity might not actually have such a serious effect on their ability to keep up acceptable numbers. In effect they might be trading in 100 future reserve ships to make 300 frontline combatant ships significantly more survivable. And if they were planning to have 250 reserve ships anyway, then cutting that to 150 might be worth the trouble!
The Rachni have achieved previous breakthroughs by building up those reserves, then using (some of)them to smash Citadel defenses in numbers, eating the losses in order to inflict crippling damage, and following up with fresh ships.
At least, that was the gist of what Renaillah told us at Re-Contact.


Or we could be dealing with racial trauma.
Back in Prothean Empire times, when they rebelled, the Protheans had a good go at wiping them out, and did exterminate them on 200 planets, with them being presumed extinct on Suen as well. Only a small population survived by hiding.

A species with racial/genetic memory might have enough trauma to do suboptimal things about fleet reserves.



Probably true. On the other hand, neither the Reapers, nor the Collectors, nor Cerberus, feel compelled to abstain from the use of barriers. I doubt the rachni are under such restrictions either, even if indoctrination may be making them more technologically conservative than they would otherwise be.

Also, I think one reason the Reapers fight infantry battles is because they don't actually want to render numerous garden worlds totally uninhabitable per cycle. They do seem to be planning to keep the cycles going indefinitely, and that becomes impossible if habitable planets are destroyed that frequently. But that's a side note.
I should point out that the Reapers came with barriertech. And both the Collectors and Cerberus developed barriers before the Reapers got their tentacles into them.
The Rachni might be the first Reaper proxy we know were acquired at their relatively low level of technology.


Bingo.
That was my thought on the whole Rachni planetary invasion doctrine thing.
Do other people have infantry barriers? Like, we had some crazy researcher get struck by lightning to figure it out. I'm sure the other factions *could* have figured it out faster than us, but I dunno if they've bothered trying to scale it down that much.
Yes.
from what I remember we were informed on recontact that yes, other polities had better infantry barriers than ours
My recollection is that biotics were the only ones with barriers at quest start.
Infantry barriers, at least mass production barriers for non-biotics, are relatively new. We used them on Eletania according to the QM, and the rest of the galaxy have independently figured it out before Re-Contact.
 
So, I was just reading up on the Wiki for the Rachni wars, it officially ended in 300 CE, one hell of a long war and that was after they managed a crushing defeat of their navies thanks to them over-committing their fleets and running into the Elcor and getting cut off.

I assume that it was likely because both sides suffered massive losses and the Citadel alliance recovered quicker allowing for them to win, probably had entered war economy with how bad things went. So there's probably a reason that it lasted so long, I guess that since things have gone better for us we could have shortened things. Though it won't be a quick win by any margin.

from what I remember we were informed on recontact that yes, other polities had better infantry barriers than ours

Probably, though given how new they are I doubt they are very good, probably in the same boat as with the warships first gen barriers, they are not gonna be an amazing booster but they are nice to have and will probably save someone's life but I wouldn't rely on them too much just yet. Still, they'll improve and if nothing else a mechanised force will help things along.

The Ground war is probably still gonna be a pain but it will be won with blood and grind for a while, also just when did the Krogan get uplifted?

Never mind went looking for it and did some math and looks like that occurs in about 21 or 20 years from now, then it'll be 60-100 years before they recover enough to get deployed. Wonder if we've changed things enough that it doesn't occur as the Citadel alliance and Terminus systems planets haven't been ravaged like in the OG timeline so maybe they won't be suffering man power issues.
 
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The Rachni are not going to have nearly that level of progress on Barrier tech given they haven't even tried to implement it beyond, possibly, some prototypes a few decades prior, because the galaxy had until recently not given them justification to revisit the issue of barrier tech. A polity does not devote resources, manpower, or shipyard space to the testing of a technology it has dismissed the value of without incentive, which was not provided until year 33, the earliest they could have performed their own military review.

Their source of more modern barrier tech is ton of scrap in Horsehead nebula, which the damage to the relay network of creates problems collecting. They at worst understand the science of out dated Barrier tech, and have no experience in applying it to their warships in an effective manner. Like original barriers and our new ablative armor, Rachni first gen Barrier tech will be logically applied to some capitol ships while they experiment with it's incorporation before moving to mass production, and likely take time to filter down to other classes of vessels.
Point of correction:
The Rachni have been explicitly getting a pretty broad range of examples of advancing Citadel tech from murdering Citadel ships and fleets. Its not just a Horshead Nebula thing.

The Citadel fleet that was supposed to be protecting Virmire was explicitly wiped out in Attican Beta, for example.
The Rachni even had access to classified communications:
"The cause of our separation," she says, producing a datapad. She slides it across the table to you. "This is an STG report dated a month after the blockade fell on Virmire. It lays out the results of their investigation into comm buoy disruptions ongoing at the time."

You open up the datapad without comment. The header more or less confirms what she's saying. "You were having problems with fleet cohesion, I see," you say.

"Orders were going missing," she replies, nodding. "Fleets would not respond to commands in time.
The STG's investigation was still ongoing when the Council sent evacuation orders to Virmire."

Your eyes flick up. "We never received any evacuation orders," you snap.

"I know," she replies. "Half of our fleets were not receiving orders at the time. It was classified, but the STG was working on it. Unfortunately, Virmire was one of the places hit."

You raise a hand for a moment, grimacing. "Wait." You pick up the datapad again and start reading through.

It describes, at length, what Renalliah just recounted to you. Transmissions to various Citadel forces going missing without a trace in the comm buoy network. Only a few at first, but more and more as time went on.

The report's conclusion is that the Rachni had found a security loophole in the comm relay network. The tone of the report becomes somewhat sheepish when it admits that it was a security loophole of which the STG was previously aware, and had declined to mention. It concludes with the means needed to patch the hole -- including an annotation that the Salarian Union had already implemented the fix.

You drop the datapad on the table, fingers tensing at the bridge of your nose to fight off a headache. "All of this for the Salarian Union's need to have one over on everybody else, no matter what," you mutter. You look up at Renalliah, glaring. "I will be confirming this."

"Of course," she replies. "I understand that it must seem rather convenient."

"That a single answer puts all of the blame on a single set of people, all of whom are now dead of old age?" you remark. "Yes, very."

Renalliah sighs. "Well, as much as I would like for it to be that simple, I'm afraid that it is not."

You narrow your eyes. "By which you mean...?"

"The Council sent the evacuation order to Virmire in the expectation of a year-long timetable," she replies. "At the time, it was actually the most conservative practical option. The rachni had made impressive initial gains, and it was clear that they were going to break through eventually, but the initial defensive lines were stable for the moment. The belief was that we had four years, particularly with the northern garrisons stripped for the south. We budgeted for a quarter of that time. Given Virmire's spacelift capacity at the time, supplemented by other vessels, we should have been able to evacuate the population in that time. Perhaps even faster. Unfortunately, we were wrong about how much time we had. Maybe the rachni finished a production run; maybe they just had reserves. They pulled a ninth battle fleet from somewhere, stripped their border forces everywhere but a single point to the bone, and smashed our lines." She clenches her hand. "We took three clusters taking advantage of how many ships they pulled for that, but they still won. They overran cluster after cluster and burned several fleets. In the end, it did not matter that we took back so much ground; they did enough damage that we could not hold it. And Virmire was cut off by that thrust. That is what happened to the fleet defending you. They died doing it."

creak

Both of you look down at the noise, and see the edge of the table bending in your grasp, corroded by your biotics, an unconscious warp flaring around your hand. Keeping your face blank, you shake the aura away. "Continue."

She blinks, and you take a moment to revel in the fact that she actually looks unnerved. Still, she continues. "Communication through Attican Beta -- and, thus, to you -- was down at the time. We only know that the fleet defending you never came out of Attican Beta. And, for years...neither did you. We thought you were dead. We thought you had to be dead! Nobody has survived being cut off; not for decades at a stretch! How did you do it? How did you survive?"

You tilt your head back, not answering. "How many people could you have evacuated, if the rachni hadn't sabotaged comms?"

"...perhaps a billion, if everything went perfectly. Realistically, six hundred million. Pessimistically...three hundred million."

You take a deep breath. "I am going to confirm every word you just said before I act on a syllable of it."

She laces her fingers together, nodding. "Of course."
The Rachni had a significant cross-section of cutting-edge Citadel tech.
Both physical samples from the battlefield, and whatever intelligence or specs they simply hacked out of the interstellar FTL comm network's backdoor.

They understood it well enough to electronically hack the orders to Citadel fleets.
None of that appears to point at ignorance, or a significant tech disparity.

It suggests, to my eyes, either choice, or issues with achieving affordable mass production outside of a lab.
Maybe someone else has a suggestion.
 
First, because ongoing naval skirmishes would have provided continued illustration that barriers were not worthless, forcing the rachni to continually re-evaluate "have we made the right decision" to avoid getting caught horribly by surprise and losing on an even worse scale than they did at the Horsehead Nebula. The incentive never went away.
No, They did not, because the skirmishes were to short to emphasize the benefits of barriers to sustained, ranged combat.
Only on a review does it become clear what has changed.

Barriers.

Barriers have always been a mass-cheap way to improve survivability, but for Virmire -- and much of the wider galaxy -- they've always been a supplement. They're a booster to durability, and frankly, yours barely helped. But they've improved, and what you saw during the battle was that they offered a significant and enduring benefit to your ships' survivability. You've seen hints of this before, of course, but never has it been so clearly demonstrated, so consistently. The rachni came in numbers, without barriers. You came with barriers.

And you fucking slaughtered them.
As we see here, in this post. The advantages of barriers were very dismissible, because barriers weren't good enough until some time in the last in quest decade to grant this bonus, and the skirmishing occuring while the Rachni worked towards a strategic reserve was insufficient in length for either side to appreciate the difference. Even with 6 length slugfests over territory in the space of a month, it still required a dedicated action from Mira to quantify into a certifiable fact.

As such, their is no evidence whatsoever to indicate the Rachni had any reason to look into barriers since the first time they faced them, and plenty supporting that they dismissed their value and chose to fucus on quantity over studying or implementing a tech whose value they did not recognize.
Second, because the cost of maintaining a testbed program (i.e. take aging cruiser, retrofit with barriers custom-built, see how it works in test fire) is small, very small, relative to the overall scale of the rachni navy. This would be part of a larger testing program they'd almost have to have, assuming they have active R&D at all and aren't just being puppeted by the Reapers to build what the Reapers want. In which case the Reapers would be telling them to start building barriers pretty soon, I should think.
This argument is complete fallacy. It is not cheap to test a completely unknown tech you have no industry to develop, and the Rachni would not be putting aside old cruisers(not that they could use those anyway for a tech that apparently needs to start at the Capitol ship level if your reverse engineering) with their war winning strategy being to build a massive reserve of cheap ships to commit to a galaxy crushing offensive, rather than refitting it and using it for first wave cannon fodder.

It's very obvious their R&D was focused on Battlecruisers and cheap mass warship production given recent events. Just because an option to research something exists does not mean a polity recognizes it's value and continues to advance it. Governments are stingy with funding, and manpower. Not every tech is recognized as worth investing in and the Rachni seem to have gone the entire opposite direction and dismissed it outright.

Without an actual reaper to direct them(sovereign is traveling the slow way to the collectors base for repairs) indoctrination is more a biological imperative to act against the none indoctrinated sentients than it is mind control. Otherwise, they'd have made the switch decades ago.
Third, because I'm fairly sure that the rachni have been capturing wrecked Alliance and Citadel ships on a semi-regular basis throughout the conflict, not just a single huge spike of them very recently.
Yes, the majority of it prior to alliance and citadel ships passing the threshold of barrier effectiveness Mira alludes to in year 33 results. They have been gaining ships, primarily in long past major battles, that are behind the current generation significantly, assuming they have even been researching them in the first place. Even then, the specific thing about Mass Effect Reverse engineered tech is it being less effective than it's predecessors. Rachni first gen barriers will not be half as strong as Rachni last gen barriers.
I think it would be perilous for us to assume that they are starting from "effectively nothing" and have not been making ongoing efforts to understand and duplicate this technology, just because their current frontline warships (many of which were built several years ago) do not have it.
Yes, and if you had evidence, as opposed to assertions which contradict evidence I'm aware of that indicates a different reality, and flies in the face of our own ability to only do so much at a single time, I'd be more willing to just let this go, given Rachni barrier tech isn't going to be a factor for multiple turns given their unlikely to move it too the front lines prior to a major battle that's still years off.

Your ignoring very clearly defined priority issues when it. Like how the council simply chooses not to mobilize fully, the Rachni in all likely hood did not acknowledge that they, who were only recently were put on the backfoot and still nearly broke the council, the Rachni likely dismissed that they should have be looking into barrier tech, in favor of focusing on an interesting new warship the enemy is using and ramping up fleet production by improving manufacturing technologies.

I believe the Rachni are likely looking into Barriers at this point, but I do not believe their anywhere near fielding entire battle fleets with them, or will be soon. I do think they might have capitol ships with shields in a few years to half a dozen. I don't expect them to be working a fraction as well as our new gen ships or even as good as our older ships currently resuming active war duties. With everything I've been looking up since poptart closed the vote, it just doesn't make sense for them too. I suggest a reread yourself, as one of your points outright contradicts the most important action, equal to Power is Power, we have taken since the wrath of the swarm event.
Point of correction:
The Rachni have been explicitly getting a pretty broad range of examples of advancing Citadel tech from murdering Citadel ships and fleets. Its not just a Horshead Nebula thing.
I never said it was, but as I pointed out earlier in this post, as citadel ships and others passed the referred to threshold of barrier effectiveness, those casualties from small skirmishes petered off. They likely have a great deal of tech prior to the threshold being passed, but until horsehead nebula, it was still likely older ships who hadn't received the latest barrier tech, which would go a long way to explain how the paradigm shift went entirely unnoticed until literally the most significant series of clashes in the entire war, and still needed dedicated resources and action to actually identify the cause of.
Aren't relays the next best thing to indestructible? That must have been quite a fight.
Citadel (Survivors/Deployed)
  • Dreadnoughts (12/89)
  • Heavy Cruisers (14/62)
  • Light Cruisers (32/73)
  • Frigates (59/138)
  • Corvettes (94/274)
Rachni (Survivors/Deployed)
  • Dreadnoughts (43/168)
  • Battlecruiser (6/70)
  • Heavy Cruisers (64/119)
  • Light Cruisers (149/234)
  • Frigates (87/168)
  • Corvettes (126/304)
Over 40 battle fleets worth. Maybe more than 50 depending on how you count battlecruisers. Definitely not a small conflict. If I had to guess, probably a few council dreadnoughts ramming Relays while detonating explosives around their reactors.
 
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I am going to formally bow out of all this "I don't think the rachni will have barriers any time soon" stuff because it feels like it's getting to be a very circular argument. Most of it is based on predictions, usually predictions of what the rachni can't do. And most of those predictions aren't really subject to disproof until and unless the rachni actually do those things.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Bombard almost everything besides locations of particular value. While some locations the Rachni occupy hold value in mundane resources and infrastructure, they're nothing we can't replicate ourselves or get elsewhere with little issue. However a few places hold unique or extremely valuable resources that are absolutely worth the effort of taking by force such as Precursor ruins and significant Eezo deposits.

[X][MAROON] In force. All three raiding fleets are now coming off of patrol duties, and the 2nd Battle Fleet is held in Sentry Omega for situations that require a reserve, just such as this one. Send all of them to Maroon Sea while you figure out a more permanent solution. If the Rachni have decided they've smelled weakness, they'll be terminally disappointed.

[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
 
Aren't relays the next best thing to indestructible? That must have been quite a fight.
They are.
Im assuming he misspoke.
No, They did not, because the skirmishes were to short to emphasize the benefits of barriers to sustained, ranged combat.
Interjection:
This is not true.
We know as late as Resurgent Grace, which was around 20 years ago IC, that the Rachni were still pushing the Citadel back and capturing systems; a canonized omake had some Citadel fleets at 60% or less strength after . Those were not skirmishes

Similarly? We know that during the timeskip that there were major battles that happened; Mira's raid into the Caleston Rift gutted enough Rachni infrastructure that both the Citadel and the Terminus were able to launch limited offensives, recapturing multiple clusters. Noone has claimed any of those campaigns were bloodless either.

They have had sufficient opportunity to see improving barriers in action on the enemy side.
Not counting whatever is in their RnD.


This argument is complete fallacy. It is not cheap to test a completely unknown tech you have no industry to develop,
Point of correction:This is not true.

It might be expensive to try to roll it out into mass production, but on the scale of a nationstate? C'mon.
Virmire managed to prototype and build an entirely new ship type on a dramatically smaller tech and economic base, despite zero prior industry to build capital ships. We built our dreadnought-scale shipyards and dreadnoughts from scratch.

The idea that a multi-cluster hyperpower like the Rachni that loses multiple fleets without flinching would find it expensive to prototype a new ship system on a dedicated test ship is not really credible.
Even if they had to hand-fabricate each part of the barrier system on the test ship, its gonna be cheaper than just one of the heavy cruisers they throw away.


I never said it was, but as I pointed out earlier in this post, as citadel ships and others passed the referred to threshold of barrier effectiveness, those casualties from small skirmishes petered off. They likely have a great deal of tech prior to the threshold being passed, but until horsehead nebula, it was still likely older ships who hadn't received the latest barrier tech, which would go a long way to explain how the paradigm shift went entirely unnoticed until literally the most significant series of clashes in the entire war, and still needed dedicated resources and action to actually identify the cause of.
Citation very much needed.

Because I have looked. There is nowhere in this quest where it was stated that Citadel ships passed some unspecified threshold of effectiveness and stopped taking losses.During Resurgent Grace, they explicitly did tell us their fleets were too depleted to help, so we know they were still suffering major losses.

Nor is there anything to suggest older ships survive in this war.
Virmire with its limited resources explicitly scrapped its first generation of battlecruisers and replaced them with a new generation once they had a new generation rolling off the lines.

The much richer Citadel isnt going to be operating older ships if they have better ones.
Experienced ship crews are too valuable to risk unnecessarily.
 
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Considering we don't see widespread electronic warfare by Rachni - like trying to subvert our comm buoys to coordinate their cut-off forces - I'd ascribe a singular act/campaign to our friendly neighborhood eldritch space squid.
Or something close enough.

Second, because the cost of maintaining a testbed program (i.e. take aging cruiser, retrofit with barriers custom-built, see how it works in test fire) is small, very small, relative to the overall scale of the rachni navy. This would be part of a larger testing program they'd almost have to have, assuming they have active R&D at all and aren't just being puppeted by the Reapers to build what the Reapers want. In which case the Reapers would be telling them to start building barriers pretty soon, I should think.

They have had sufficient opportunity to see improving barriers in action on the enemy side.
Not counting whatever is in their RnD.



Point of correction:This is not true.

It might be expensive to try to roll it out into mass production, but on the scale of a nationstate? C'mon.
Virmire managed to prototype and build an entirely new ship type on a dramatically smaller tech and economic base, despite zero prior industry to build capital ships. We built our dreadnought-scale shipyards and dreadnoughts from scratch.

The idea that a multi-cluster hyperpower like the Rachni that loses multiple fleets without flinching would find it expensive to prototype a new ship system on a dedicated test ship is not really credible.
Even if they had to hand-fabricate each part of the barrier system on the test ship, its gonna be cheaper than just one of the heavy cruisers they throw away.


Tbh, I'd say that for Rachni the cost of such a program is very great.

The issue for Rachni might well be scarcity of resources - not material ones, but rather time and opportunity costs.
They have an essentially endless supply of biological automata, but how many beings with independent thoughts or equivalent who can design ships they actually have?

We know that they typically host one queen - maybe two - per battlefleet. Also, as of second battle for Hercules, when we retook that system, there was a single queen to handle all the needs of occupation.

There are at least thousands of queens. Possibly tens of thousands, or even millions. Maybe an order of magnitude - two, three orders of magnitude - more of warriors.

Those numbers are large... But so is population of a decent single planet, like, say, Virmire.
We, as in Virmire, likely have a comparable pool of talent to draw from to one Rachni have - and Virmire is not spreading itself across half the galaxy to fight the other half, having to build and crew a hundred or so fleets; We barely manage an equivalent of four.
And it's easier for us to get new tech from TA or Council than for Rachni. For one, we have uninterrupted connection to Extranet, and for two, we are not relying on a very small pool of Rachni to anything translators that exist in the galaxy.
And for three, we can call up an original developer and might well get an answer, even if at times it's a "No.".

Of course, development programs are still possible - but those still have an outsized opportunity cost for Rachni, so I'd guess them going mostly for low-hanging fruit aka something that has been proven to work by their enemies.

What would that mean for barriers? Rachni are aware of benefits and costs of barriers; They had many incentives to start looking into them, what with coming down to triarii in recent battles, and with abundance of premier-grade Citadel salvage, they'd likely have something workable soon. But not yet - even with abundance of resources for construction, designs need time to be drawn, and in the meantime they do need to rebuild their fleets with something, even if it's a last-gen something.

How long did it take for us to get our first capital, from concept drawings and to a first BC? Half a decade or a bit less?
That same number would make sense for when first Rachni ships with barriers start leaving the slips. Actual deployment to combat zones, absent another debacle, probably would come a year or several later, since a significant jump in capability is something to be concealed until you can make best use of it - say, rebuilding their entire fleet reserve with barriers before reassigning this mass of ships for a grand offensive, something on that scale.
 
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