Disagree. We're being asked whether to join or not join despite not knowing how QM will write the personalities of Pigot, the rest of the PRT, and the Wards. We can always join later once Taylor is stronger and in a stronger bargaining position, but if we join now, there's no taking back having to unmask to the PRT and being bound by a contract that will likely need parental permission to get out of if she can get out of it at all before turning 18.
She doesn't need the PRT for a tinker budget and can grow strong on her own.
These arguments are neither spiteful nor debunked.
if she was a real person you would be absolutely right. this is a meta vote about what to do with the quest. And QM was quite explicit that he considers this a polarizing choice and wants to just get it done.
I seriously doubt he will let us flip flop on this
besides that, since it is a meta vote "yes wards" could very well be "yes, but later"
I think you are missing the point of a "meta vote"
if she was a real person you would be absolutely right. this is a meta vote about what to do with the quest. And QM was quite explicit that he considers this a polarizing choice and wants to just get it done.
I seriously doubt he will let us flip flop on this
Quite possibly. I've never heard the term "meta vote" before; just "vote".
I understand that this is a polarizing vote, but things can be done to make it less polarizing such as give us more info as to the personality of her possible co-workers and the possible work conditions as a Ward in this quest. We can't necessarily go by what's in canon or other fanon since QM is free to write or change things according to her choices. Given the little information available to base the decision on, I'm also quite happy if QM just flipped a coin if just getting it done was the main goal of this vote. Some people might not be happy with it, but we'll all get over it.
Quite possibly. I've never heard the term "meta vote" before; just "vote".
I understand that this is a polarizing vote, but things can be done to make it less polarizing such as give us more info as to the personality of her possible co-workers and the possible work conditions as a Ward in this quest. We can't necessarily go by what's in canon or other fanon since QM is free to write or change things according to her choices. Given the little information available to base the decision on, I'm also quite happy if QM just flipped a coin if just getting it done was the main goal of this vote. Some people might not be happy with it, but we'll all get over it.
Yeah, even a 1.5x mod on every Yes vote wouldn't cover that spread.
I dunno; even after a day of thinking about it I'm not sure which to go with, myself. The No side has autonomy, and the ability to be a neutral party if/when the Cauldron story comes out, whereas the Yes side has more structure, will likely speed the metaplot along, and takes a lot of the street-level threats off the table in exchange for bigger, higher-level threats.
On an in-character level, I can really see Taylor going either way. On one hand, she really kicked over an anthill tonight, so she might consider it worth the effort to get some protection for her family. And, like it or not, the heroes will go further out on a limb to protect the family of one of their own over an independent. On the other hand, there's still that problem with authority failing her at every turn, and the certainty that Taylor knows how much better she can be, talent the PRT still won't see even with multiple villain captures and civilian saves under her belt.
Given that, I think I'm inclined to say
[x] No Wards
-[x] For now; check back at say ECL 5?
but it's really close, and I can easily see changing my mind later.
On another note, we have Alter Self, possibly the most broken D&D 3.5 spell ever conceived (if not quite as broken as 3.0 where you could basically make up your own race), plus we're an Outsider thanks to our template. As to why this is important: behold the Ravid:
3HD outsider, 60ft perfect fly speed (though we have that already), and +15 natural armor bonus.
Even better: the Dwarf Ancestor:
Only 20ft ground speed, but Large (and thus capable of wielding Large weapons), a racial +9 to Spot and Listen, and +18 natural armor.
Bullets? Hah; bullets will never be a problem again.
As a side note: if we're an Outsider, can we use Alter Self to become a normal human? I'm sure we can find a form that ditches the wings, but I'm not sure we can look like an ordinary human.
As a side note: if we're an Outsider, can we use Alter Self to become a normal human? I'm sure we can find a form that ditches the wings, but I'm not sure we can look like an ordinary human.
First off - if you all decide to change your minds later on, that's fine. This isn't permanent vote against joining any organisation, just one that'll cover a while. Secondly, Alter Self is just the first of an ever increasingly broken chain of spells. Thirdly, some Aasimar are close enough to human for it work.
First off - if you all decide to change your minds later on, that's fine. This isn't permanent vote against joining any organisation, just one that'll cover a while. Secondly, Alter Self is just the first of an ever increasingly broken chain of spells. Thirdly, some Aasimar are close enough to human for it work.
If you were a government cape, the government wouldn't have show up after the fight
[X] No Wards
The main thing Taylor is going to need is money, which she can't actually get with the Wards. If she joined them, she would have to follow all their procedures and restrictions, but would still only get minimum wage. Most of the money they actually get goes to a trust fund that she can't touch until she turns 18.
The backup would be useful, but it wouldn't outweigh the restrictions that she would have to follow. Staying independent keeps her free while allowing her to work with them and have access to their powers, but keeps her free to get the same money from bounties and turning in illegal things.
Also it staying a street level quest is fine for now, joining the big leagues quicker is not actually a good thing, especially since Taylor is only level 3. The usual minimum of the Big Leagues in a normal campaign is generally 11, but that is with a party of 4.
As a side note: if we're an Outsider, can we use Alter Self to become a normal human? I'm sure we can find a form that ditches the wings, but I'm not sure we can look like an ordinary human.
First off - if you all decide to change your minds later on, that's fine. This isn't permanent vote against joining any organisation, just one that'll cover a while. Secondly, Alter Self is just the first of an ever increasingly broken chain of spells. Thirdly, some Aasimar are close enough to human for it work.
Could you make this vote set a precedent that Taylor will reject recruitment on her own without voter input in the future and will only join if the idea to join originates from the voters not a join/don't join vote. Having to do new votes to not join every so often gets kind of annoying.
Could you make this vote set a precedent that Taylor will reject recruitment on her own without voter input in the future and will only join if the idea to join originates from the voters not a join/don't join vote. Having to do new votes to not join every so often gets kind of annoying.
Well it would make sense that the PRT would keep trying to recruit her considering how powerful she is. Even more so when she gets to the higher levels. I think if the option comes up again in story it should be major like the PRT willing to give Taylor far more liberties if she joins.
Well it would make sense that the PRT would keep trying to recruit her considering how powerful she is. Even more so when she gets to the higher levels. I think if the option comes up again in story it should be major like the PRT willing to give Taylor far more liberties if she joins.
Yes in universe but stopping the quest for another join/don't join vote every time we run into the heroes will be as annoying as hell for the players. That is why I proposed automating Taylor rebuffing those requests unless a player initiated decision to join has already been made.
Otherwise it results in every third vote being the same one over and over again until either join wins due to voter fatigue or the arguments kill the quest.
Do you want to join?
No.
Do you want to join?
No.
Do you want to join?
No.
Do you want to join?
No.
Do you want to join?
No.
Do you want to join?
No.
That is why if the offer is going to be made in story it should be in a major way like the PRT offering to give the players most of what they want if they joined. Seeing as we would need to level up a lot for the PRT to be willing to bend over for us I think the option wouldn't show up for a very long time. Though I agree it shouldn't be a constant thing.
That is why if the offer is going to be made in story it should be in a major way like the PRT offering to give the players most of what they want if they joined. Seeing as we would need to level up a lot for the PRT to be willing to bend over for us I think the option wouldn't show up for a very long time. Though I agree it shouldn't be a constant thing.
I still dont understand why joining the wards would be necessary for either of these. We know Glory Girl has no problems interacting with wards, and we could ask her to introduce us.
As for getting into big leagues, we are still too weak/low-level for that. Once we level up enough however, we will gain access to powerfull abilities that (IMHO) should propel us to big leagues whether we are independent or not (Raise dead alone makes Taylor one of the most famous parahumans ever).
Also, the more I think about it, the more I would like an opportunity to join a group other than wards. I think I mentioned this earlier, but once we get high enough, we could probably leverage raise dead and magic items that don't need maintenance for anything we want. Few quests have Taylor join the full protectorate, or the Guild for example. Joining either would be interesting and original (atleast I don't recall lots of quests/stories where those happen).
So whats the problem with leveling up outside of wards then, until we are in a better negotiating position? As has been pointed out many times, we do not need the wards or PRTs tinker budget. It also would kinda give the best of both worlds (street level while we are low level, and then to big leagues once we reach high enough ECL that street level stops making sense).
So whats the problem with leveling up outside of wards then, until we are in a better negotiating position? As has been pointed out many times, we do not need the wards or PRTs tinker budget. It also would kinda give the best of both worlds (street level while we are low level, and then to big leagues once we reach high enough ECL that street level stops making sense).
Yeah, that argument is whatever, I don't necessarily agree, but it's at least a somewhat valid point. It's the whole "taking everything Piggot said personally" combined with people playing telephone about the worst PRT conspiracy theories that's driving me crazy here.
Yeah, that argument is whatever, I don't necessarily agree, but it's at least a somewhat valid point. It's the whole "taking everything Piggot said personally" combined with people playing telephone about the worst PRT conspiracy theories that's driving me crazy here.
Which conspiracy theories would those be? They are soon-to-be-abandoned-puppets of a shadowy conspiracy, doomed to go down in flames. That bit is established in canon.
Yeah, that argument is whatever, I don't necessarily agree, but it's at least a somewhat valid point. It's the whole "taking everything Piggot said personally" combined with people playing telephone about the worst PRT conspiracy theories that's driving me crazy here.
You know, the arguing is mostly over, except for the people complaining about all the arguing. The vote has a clear winner; it seems there isn't much inclination to go for the Wards just yet. Maybe in a couple more levels when our magic item crafting chops are proven and we suddenly become a national treasure we might be tempted by the Wards again, where we can explain that our powers are fueled by conflict (hah!) and we need to be regularly challenged so that we have enough of whatever metaphysical energy we get from fighting in order to make the awesome healing items, and getting paid enough to remain financially independent is mission-critical for us.
Which conspiracy theories would those be? They are soon-to-be-abandoned-puppets of a shadowy conspiracy, doomed to go down in flames. That bit is established in canon.
Soon to be abandoned: Chevalier was the one who reorganized the protectorate, specifically to get rid of the elements revealed during the Echidna fight. If it weren't for them being forced out, I have no idea why you'd think the triumverate was planning to jump ship?
Puppets of a shadowy conspiracy: Yes Cauldron made the PRT, and violated the spirit of the organization by having a cape be head director. But their motive for spending all that time and effort? It was exactly what it says on the tin, it was a banner to organize the heroically inclined and to perform triage on the bleeding out corpse of their society. If they weren't propping it up, things would be worse. Which brings us to:
Doomed to go down in flames: Sure, but that's a result of exogenous factors such as the exponential increase in triggers, the lopsided villain to hero ratio, and of course the endbringers. The parts of the world that are under of the Aegis of Cauldron meddling (North America, Europe) are doing a lot better than where they aren't propping stuff up (Africa, Russia, China)
Could they have done better? Sure. Did they do their absolute best? It's arguable. But on the balance, they were definitely better than the alternative of them doing nothing.
Canon barely shows any of the macro scale stuff, and what it does show is colored by Taylor's unreliable viewpoint. By the time she was dealing with stuff on a global scale, she was considering it a rational decision to drop endbringers on people who were running for their lives. I.e. the Commissar Gambit.
Soon to be abandoned: Chevalier was the one who reorganized the protectorate, specifically to get rid of the elements revealed during the Echidna fight. If it weren't for them being forced out, I have no idea why you'd think the triumverate was planning to jump ship?
Puppets of a shadowy conspiracy: Yes Cauldron made the PRT, and violated the spirit of the organization by having a cape be head director. But their motive for spending all that time and effort? It was exactly what it says on the tin, it was a banner to organize the heroically inclined and to perform triage on the bleeding out corpse of their society. If they weren't propping it up, things would be worse. Which brings us to:
True but that propping up will stop. It does not matter if it is a noble ship going down, only that it is going down and there is nothing Cauldron can do to stop it.
Doomed to go down in flames: Sure, but that's a result of exogenous factors such as the exponential increase in triggers, the lopsided villain to hero ratio, and of course the endbringers. The parts of the world that are under of the Aegis of Cauldron meddling (North America, Europe) are doing a lot better than where they aren't propping stuff up (Africa, Russia, China)
I completely agree but it is no way mitigates the fact that things will only get worse including if Zion dies. Not only will there be more triggers, there will be more anomalous triggers making things exponentially worse. Parahuman feudalism is the wave of the future. The world does not need another pair of hands to hopelessly bail water from the sinking ship of the Protectorate/PRT. It needs sane independents and even villains ready to step into the void as relatively moral lords of the brave new world, as horrible as it will inevitably be.
Could they have done better? Sure. Did they do their absolute best? It's arguable. But on the balance, they were definitely better than the alternative of them doing nothing.
Canon barely shows any of the macro scale stuff, and what it does show is colored by Taylor's unreliable viewpoint. By the time she was dealing with stuff on a global scale, she was considering it a rational decision to drop endbringers on people who were running for their lives. I.e. the Commissar Gambit.
