Really it's hard to believe they'd mess with anything that size, what are we accustomed to that we have developed such an attitude to massive beasts?

Normally we'd give healthy respect to large herd animals let alone something specifically noted as giving zero fucks about sleeping alone in the forest.
 
Really it's hard to believe they'd mess with anything that size, what are we accustomed to that we have developed such an attitude to massive beasts?

Normally we'd give healthy respect to large herd animals let alone something specifically noted as giving zero fucks about sleeping alone in the forest.
The most dangerous things you know are large cats and the occasional pack of wolves wandering in from the northern parts of the steppes, which are all smallish, nimble hunters. Lone, large beasts are, in your hunters experience, mostly prey species that got separated from their herds and for those, the tactics they had used would have worked fine.

The core problem is that your tribe uses small throwing spears with wooden or bone tips, due to never having had a source of flint in the steppe. Not exactly the best tools against something that has evolved to survive a scuffle with other one ton mountains of bad attiude and the claws to back up that temper.
 
The most dangerous things you know are large cats and the occasional pack of wolves wandering in from the northern parts of the steppes, which are all smallish, nimble hunters. Lone, large beasts are, in your hunters experience, mostly prey species that got separated from their herds and for those, the tactics they had used would have worked fine.

The core problem is that your tribe uses small throwing spears with wooden or bone tips, due to never having had a source of flint in the steppe. Not exactly the best tools against something that has evolved to survive a scuffle with other one ton mountains of bad attiude and the claws to back up that temper.
Oh! So if we find flint here while making new weapons we might stand a snowball's chance in hell against at least doing the bear a bit of damage?

Alternatively we could do some crazy scheme to try to get a tree to fall on the bear, but I'm not sure if we've invented axes yet...
 
Lone, large beasts are, in your hunters experience, mostly prey species that got separated from their herds and for those, the tactics they had used would have worked fine.

It seems I underestimated our Hunter's capabilities.

Oh! So if we find flint here while making new weapons we might stand a snowball's chance in hell against at least doing the bear a bit of damage?

Alternatively we could do some crazy scheme to try to get a tree to fall on the bear, but I'm not sure if we've invented axes yet...

@Azel

Do we do rope? Snares?

What's our experience with digging?

Boats?

Owning/manipulating animals of any kind?
 
Oh! So if we find flint here while making new weapons we might stand a snowball's chance in hell against at least doing the bear a bit of damage?

Alternatively we could do some crazy scheme to try to get a tree to fall on the bear, but I'm not sure if we've invented axes yet...
Maybe.

And yes, you have axes. You have in fact left the trees already. :p
 
Maybe.

And yes, you have axes. You have in fact left the trees already. :p
Huh. I was half-expecting that we didn't have axes.

What's the axe head made out of if the tribe is mainly experienced with only using wood and bone? Did the elders just invent the axe on the spot with little ceremony the second they got flint? Was the axe something traded for from other tribes?
 
Hmm. @Azel Perhaps you should add a list of the technologies we possess to the civ information post, as well as our food income, population, and consumption?
 
It seems I underestimated our Hunter's capabilities.



@Azel

Do we do rope? Snares?

What's our experience with digging?

Boats?

Owning/manipulating animals of any kind?
Ropes yes, snares no. Not enough stuff to anchor them to in the steppes and the tribe tended to move too much to make them really effective.

You can dig holes, though never saw the point in doing so for more then refuse disposal. Pit traps, if that's what you are angling for, are a thing, but used sparingly due to the effort - reward calculations being not that good for a roaming tribe.

No boats. Rivers are sparce in the steppe and no trees of sufficient size available.

Animal husbandry is a completely novel idea to you.

Huh. I was half-expecting that we didn't have axes.

What's the axe head made out of if the tribe is mainly experienced with only using wood and bone? Did the elders just invent the axe on the spot with little ceremony the second they got flint? Was the axe something traded for from other tribes?
You've got most of your stone tools, used for cutting and shrub-chopping, from trade with others. It's a niche thing for you, since bone knifes and saws can get the job done too for what you needed so far and bones have been ample.

Hmm. @Azel Perhaps you should add a list of the technologies we possess to the civ information post, as well as our food income, population, and consumption?
I try to keep things a bit abstract and streamlined for now, since the developments we are talking about happened over the course of 6 to 8 millenia. So it will ve mostly easy technology gain by simply focusing on a task for now.

So fishing will get you simple line and bait fishing quickly and hunting will quickly see advancements in tactics.

Kinda need to condense things a lot for the sake of the story.
 
I try to keep things a bit abstract and streamlined for now, since the developments we are talking about happened over the course of 6 to 8 millenia. So it will ve mostly easy technology gain by simply focusing on a task for now.

So fishing will get you simple line and bait fishing quickly and hunting will quickly see advancements in tactics.

Kinda need to condense things a lot for the sake of the story.

True, but I thought that it might be helpful to keep track of the technologies we have to avoid confusion.
 
More or less, yes. Wind direction and overall latitude still play a large role. The valley could also be arid if the opening were on the leeward side.
True, but given the river flowing through the valley, I presume most of the mountain icecaps feed into it by geography, so if the wind direction shifts it's likely to still continue feeding if for no other reason than path of least resistance.

Though a nice stable nook at the core of your civilization also can be bad since it makes it harder to change if you're TOO stable(not that SV faces that problem since we make our own hell)



The most dangerous things you know are large cats and the occasional pack of wolves wandering in from the northern parts of the steppes, which are all smallish, nimble hunters. Lone, large beasts are, in your hunters experience, mostly prey species that got separated from their herds and for those, the tactics they had used would have worked fine.

The core problem is that your tribe uses small throwing spears with wooden or bone tips, due to never having had a source of flint in the steppe. Not exactly the best tools against something that has evolved to survive a scuffle with other one ton mountains of bad attiude and the claws to back up that temper.
I actually figured the core problem was that Boldness is trending. Our hunters, high on the success of daring to try new things, and how everything they touched seemed to go right...were more reckless than normal.

Now the big difference between Steppe Hunters and Hill Hunters. Steppe hunters usually run into wolves and tigers, these predators usually flee after being blooded unless they have significant superiority, allowing a human hunter to chase and eventually just outlast them to exhaustion. This is partly because they're built light on the steppes, and to stay fed, a dense hide and skeleton is simply too nutritionally expensive for creatures that must range a wide territory.

Hill hunters soon learn to avoid the shit out of marked apex predator territory...but at the same time such predators are usually fairly sessile, their nutrition demands more or less means a mature apex predator would park on a good spot with shelter and plenty of food, then not leave it much, and so you can fight the aggressive young leaving the den, but you don't go and aggro the bear.
What they SHOULD have done is to maintain a threatening posture, try to look like too much trouble to eat, and back off. The bear wasn't going to go to too much trouble to kill you unless in mating season, wounded or with cubs.
But doing so with a Steppe predator would have only attracted a pack to flank and hunt you back.
Oh! So if we find flint here while making new weapons we might stand a snowball's chance in hell against at least doing the bear a bit of damage?

Alternatively we could do some crazy scheme to try to get a tree to fall on the bear, but I'm not sure if we've invented axes yet...
You can hit a bear with a car and the car has good odds of losing. Flint can hurt a bear, but its generally not worth it because again, super thick hide and skull, claws that can peel a car open like a can of tuna.

What you do with bears is lots of traps and thick sturdy walls. Also making sure you know where their territories are. As Apex Predators go they're one of the more chill types and don't go poke it like an idiot.
 
You can hit a bear with a car and the car has good odds of losing. Flint can hurt a bear, but its generally not worth it because again, super thick hide and skull, claws that can peel a car open like a can of tuna.

What you do with bears is lots of traps and thick sturdy walls. Also making sure you know where their territories are. As Apex Predators go they're one of the more chill types and don't go poke it like an idiot.
I was mainly thinking of a combination of traps, then lots and lots of flint-tipped spears once the bear's sufficiently immobilized. At this point it'll be a point of pride when we eat that bear.
 
Would copper tipped spears do a decent job then? Bronze?
Bronze might work.

Alternatively, repeated and brutal shots to the nose to keep it distracted. That's the equivalent of a kick to the balls for a human male, just 100x worse.

The major problem is we have unskilled hunters with supremely bad judgement (hey, look at that huge thing with claws that can slice us in half, let's try to kill it with bone-tipped spears), so even if they had the right tools I wouldn't bet on them.
 
Bronze might work.

Alternatively, repeated and brutal shots to the nose to keep it distracted. That's the equivalent of a kick to the balls for a human male, just 100x worse.

The major problem is we have unskilled hunters with supremely bad judgement (hey, look at that huge thing with claws that can slice us in half, let's try to kill it with bone-tipped spears), so even if they had the right tools I wouldn't bet on them.
To be fair to them, if throwing sharp sticks at things always killed them before, even if they were really large, you would expect for it to also work on the large beast you just came across.

Calling our hunters unskilled because they don't have a complete understanding of the new environment they just came into is kinda silly in my opinion.
 
To be fair to them, if throwing sharp sticks at things always killed them before, even if they were really large, you would expect for it to also work on the large beast you just came across.

Calling our hunters unskilled because they don't have a complete understanding of the new environment they just came into is kinda silly in my opinion.
Slightly unfair, sure, but not entirely unfair. We've seen the hard way that there was a pretty severe lack of caution from our hunters in an unfamiliar environment. As for the unskilled thing, they are unskilled. They're skilled for hunting in the steppe because they have the weapons and training for it. They're unskilled, however, in hunting in the forest, and unfamiliar with the animals therein and tactics & weapons to properly hunt them.
 
Bronze might work.

Alternatively, repeated and brutal shots to the nose to keep it distracted. That's the equivalent of a kick to the balls for a human male, just 100x worse.

The major problem is we have unskilled hunters with supremely bad judgement (hey, look at that huge thing with claws that can slice us in half, let's try to kill it with bone-tipped spears), so even if they had the right tools I wouldn't bet on them.
You want iron and a small warparty.
Or you dig a pit, stake it and let its weight do the job.

Also smacking a bear in the muzzle works if you want to deter it from trying to eat you, but if its already on the warpath you're just making it madder.

But the whole discussion is missing the point: Bears rarely fuck with people unless they are provoked, wounded or hungry. Just keep a wide berth around the bear zone and hey, nothing makes them intrinsically impossible to domesticate. You'd have to somehow separate the cubs from the mama without being killed first though.
 
I don't blame the hunters much Duesal, I mean, what they did was reckless but if they'd made it back to camp with food for a month and what is essentially stone age kevlar plate we would have been ecstatic. We're really in the dawn of time, they had no idea that such a killing machine could even exist... someone made a comparison with a Terminator... and well, a T-800 would have had the same results. We're lucky Azel let us start with fire tech.

Also, the bear gives us a clear and present danger to mold our culture... *hint hint*
 
You want iron and a small warparty.
Or you dig a pit, stake it and let its weight do the job.

Also smacking a bear in the muzzle works if you want to deter it from trying to eat you, but if its already on the warpath you're just making it madder.

But the whole discussion is missing the point: Bears rarely fuck with people unless they are provoked, wounded or hungry. Just keep a wide berth around the bear zone and hey, nothing makes them intrinsically impossible to domesticate. You'd have to somehow separate the cubs from the mama without being killed first though.

Would flat bows do the job? They're basically neolithic native american tech and packed a punch comparable to a longbow.
 
But the whole discussion is missing the point: Bears rarely fuck with people unless they are provoked, wounded or hungry. Just keep a wide berth around the bear zone and hey, nothing makes them intrinsically impossible to domesticate. You'd have to somehow separate the cubs from the mama without being killed first though.
That's the problem -- I don't want to leave it alone, I have my heart set on eventually eating this bear. I am very interested in making traps to kill it.
 
But the whole discussion is missing the point: Bears rarely fuck with people unless they are provoked, wounded or hungry. Just keep a wide berth around the bear zone and hey, nothing makes them intrinsically impossible to domesticate. You'd have to somehow separate the cubs from the mama without being killed first though.
Mind you that bears miss two of the criteria for domestication. They neither have a social structure that promotes long-term coexistence like herd or pack animals, no are they easy to restrain and safe to keep around humans. That last part alone is pretty much the end of that plan.

Take the american buffalo as an example. It fits all domestication criteria, save the ease to restrain it. Aggressive beasts that weigh a ton are nothing that a stone age culture can keep under control. In the modern day, it has become possible to pen them in with sufficiently sturdy materials and infrastructure and their domestication has been progressing rapidly as a result.

Trying to pen in a bunch of bears would require herculean effort on your part and most likely, they would murder each other over the little territory that they have available in said pen.


Anyway, vote closed. Time for your tribe to use all that Homo Sapiens Sapiens brain matter.
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Jun 13, 2018 at 12:26 PM, finished with 198 posts and 25 votes.

  • [X] Plan Practicality
    -[X] [Hunters] Tell them to go with the gatherers and find a way to make new weapons. (Might find a way to make new weapons.)
    -[X] [Action] Look at the trees and see if you can make new spears from their branches. (Might find a way to make new weapons.)
    -[X] [Action] Look for a way to defend the camp or at least make it easier to detect the beast if it comes. (Might find something. Might reassure the people.)
    [X] Plan: Little Snow
    -[X] [Hunters] Tell them to try to fish in the rivers and streams. More supplies are always good and it will make them feel useful. (Food)
    -[X] [Action] Look at the rocks of the valley and see if something useful can be made from them. (Might find a way to make new tools or weapons.)
    -[X] [Action] Look for a way to defend the camp or at least make it easier to detect the beast if it comes. (Might find something. Might reassure the people.)
    [X] Plan Raichu
    -[X] [Hunters] Let them mourn their lost kin and friends, and let them decide themselves what to do. (Unknown effect.)
    -[X] [Action] The spirits have aided the tribe to get to this valley. Try to ask them for guidance again. (Might reassure the people.)
    -[X] [Action] Look for a way to defend the camp or at least make it easier to detect the beast if it comes. (Might find something. Might reassure the people.)
    [X] Plan Hail Mary
    -[X] [Hunters] Let them mourn their lost kin and friends, and let them decide themselves what to do. (Unknown effect.)
    -[X] [Action] Look for a way to defend the camp or at least make it easier to detect the beast if it comes. (Might find something. Might reassure the people.)
    -[X] [Action] Look at the rocks of the valley and see if something useful can be made from them. (Might find a way to make new tools or weapons.)
    [X] [Hunters] Let them mourn their lost kin and friends, and let them decide themselves what to do. (Unknown effect.)
 
That's the problem -- I don't want to leave it alone, I have my heart set on eventually eating this bear. I am very interested in making traps to kill it.

Furthermore, bears are our competitors. Every animal it eats is another batch of calories not making it into our pop growth. So unless we could tame it somehow, the sooner it dies the better, which means a lot of pit traps I suppose, we're a freaking low way from Bronze let alone Iron.
 
Would flat bows do the job? They're basically neolithic native american tech and packed a punch comparable to a longbow.
Can't penetrate vitals through the fur and the fat and the bone. You'd only make it angry.
Mind you that bears miss two of the criteria for domestication. They neither have a social structure that promotes long-term coexistence like herd or pack animals, no are they easy to restrain and safe to keep around humans. That last part alone is pretty much the end of that plan.

Take the american buffalo as an example. It fits all domestication criteria, save the ease to restrain it. Aggressive beasts that weigh a ton are nothing that a stone age culture can keep under control. In the modern day, it has become possible to pen them in with sufficiently sturdy materials and infrastructure and their domestication has been progressing rapidly as a result.

Trying to pen in a bunch of bears would require herculean effort on your part and most likely, they would murder each other over the little territory that they have available in said pen.
Probably. Iron age at a minimum to even try.
 
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