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Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest

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Tomcost said:
Yep, it creates a conflict which will wipe out the rest of our military. Our stability score is rapidly decreasing, and will be strained. It will leave us even more vulnerable than before. At least now we can think about reinforcements, or at least out-stubborning them.
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First, I will say, that we will have to pay some sort of price to solve our current situation.

If we try hiding behind our walls, they might destroy everything outside them. This include our orchards, which would lead to starvation issues, or our temple, which would lead to a large culture deficit, that might mean the loss of important values like the Mandate of Ancestors.

If we meet them in battle, then even if we win, we will probably loss multipel pops, if we loss it might simply mean that we hid behind our walls or that our village ends up destroyed.

Compared to these two scenarios, then cutting a deal on the terms that I have suggested and having to deal with the returning hunters, seems like the lesser price to me.
 
Mortenkam said:
First, I will say, that we will have to pay some sort of price to solve our current situation.

If we try hiding behind our walls, they might destroy everything outside them. This include our orchards, which would lead to starvation issues, or our temple, which would lead to a large culture deficit, that might mean the loss of important values like the Mandate of Ancestors.

If we meet them in battle, then even if we win, we will probably loss multipel pops, if we loss it might simply mean that we hid behind our walls or that our village ends up destroyed.

Compared to these two scenarios, then cutting a deal on the terms that I have suggested and having to deal with the returning hunters, seems like the lesser price to me.
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The price will be paid in some pops lost plus some buildings destroyed. To keep the siege they would have to eat too, and that means that they can't actually stay so much time out there without going off to hunt. If they go for the White Halls it will trigger our fanaticism and then we will repel them.
 
[X] Utilizing prior achievements
-[X] Withdraw behind your walls
-[X] If the enemy tries to siege, fine. We'll crush them between the walls and the hopefully returning Deer eventually
-[X] IF the enemy bypasses our main village and its walls and moves towards White Halls attack them in full force
--[X] Attempt to convince people that the enemy is here to end them, to destroy their temple, burn their orchards and undo all the great achievement since the time of Bear and Wolf.

There.
We have a better chance of making our people fight their hardest if they act to protect the temple. By the time the enemy passes Greenvalley they are coming very close to said temple, so this is the best chance I see besides abandoning our villages to get that temple bonus.

@Azel
Since a lot of problems come from wrong assumptions, am I reading the map correctly when I see that:
1. From the direction the attackers are coming from, they have to pass by Greenvalley (mainvillage) to get to the majority of our food-production (Orchards, Fisher-village, Hunting-village)?
2. Going in that same direction would bring them very close to White Halls (regardless of their intentions, just as geographical fact) because it is very close behind our village and it should be resonably easy to make people assume they will destroy it?
 
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Artemis1992 said:
@Azel
Since a lot of problems come from wrong assumptions, am I reading the map correctly when I see that:
1. From the direction the attackers are coming from, they have to pass by Greenvalley (mainvillage) to get to the majority of our food-production (Orchards, Fisher-village, Hunting-village)?
2. Going in that same direction would bring them very close to White Halls (regardless of their intentions, just as geographical fact) because it is very close behind our village and it should be resonably easy to make people assume they will destroy it?
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1. More or less. Food production is centered all around Greenvalley and the satellite villages, but there is ample space to navigate. If you hunker down behind the wall, they could easily bypass everything and march all the way to Laketop.
2. For a given value of close, yes. As for people assuming they are destroying it, that's not automatically a given, though the Council can try to convince people of that.
 
Azel said:
2. For a given value of close, yes. As for people assuming they are destroying it, that's not automatically a given, though the Council can try to convince people of that.
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Added talking about that, a chance is better than none.

Azel said:
1. More or less. Food production is centered all around Greenvalley and the satellite villages, but there is ample space to navigate. If you hunker down behind the wall, they could easily bypass everything and march all the way to Laketop.
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Thats a given, but also something we can use for the other point.

Thank you for the answers, I hope my solution is sufficiently "Death or Glory" to please the ancestors and grant us victory.
 
Tomcost said:
The price will be paid in some pops lost plus some buildings destroyed. To keep the siege they would have to eat too, and that means that they can't actually stay so much time out there without going off to hunt. If they go for the White Halls it will trigger our fanaticism and then we will repel them.
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I would not be so quick to dismiss the value of our orchards as just some building, they seem to be responsible for like a fourth of our food income, but again it comes down to what you believe to be the lesser price to pay.
Artemis1992 said:
[X] Utilizing prior achievements
-[X] Withdraw behind your walls
-[X] If the enemy tries to siege, fine. We'll crush them between the walls and the hopefully returning Deer eventually
-[X] IF the enemy bypasses our main village and its walls and moves towards White Halls attack them in full force
--[X] Attempt to convince people that the enemy is here to end them, to destroy their temple, burn their orchards and undo all the great achievement since the time of Bear and Wolf.
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I will admit to thinking that this sounds like a good fallback plan, if a attempt at diplomacy fails.
 
Mortenkam said:
I would not be so quick to dismiss the value of our orchards as just some building, they seem to be responsible for like a fourth of our food income, but again it comes down to what you believe to be the lesser price to pay.
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They were roughly 1/3rd of your total food income last turn to be precise.
The next biggest one is fishing at 1/4th.
 
Mortenkam said:
I will admit to thinking that this sounds like a good fallback plan, if a attempt at diplomacy fails.
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If we go with the scapegoating plan and Deer returns we have a civil war on our hands.

One that will cost us easily as much as the invasion, propably more.
Given our people's hard-earned, fucking stubborness there will be many dead before anyone retreats in a civil war.
 
Artemis1992 said:
If we go with the scapegoating plan and Deer returns we have a civil war on our hands.

One that will cost us easily as much as the invasion, propably more.
Given our people's hard-earned, fucking stubborness there will be many dead before anyone retreats in a civil war.
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Again, I ask why you think it to be a certainty. The reason that they disobeyed the Council of Three the last time was because of the plan, not their inherent rebellious nature.
Also, the only one that will be punished is Deer with exile, which technically only means that he cannot enter Greenvalley and that he ought to give up his position on the council.
Lastly, why do think that a civil war could even get close to the damage the invasion could do? Deer would not burn down the orchards or the temple and I doubt he would end up killing more pops than the invasion would.
 
Mortenkam said:
Again, I ask why you think it to be a certainty. The reason that they disobeyed the Council of Three the last time was because of the plan, not their inherent rebellious nature.
Also, the only one that will be punished is Deer with exile, which technically only means that he cannot enter Greenvalley and that he ought to give up his position on the council.
Lastly, why do think that a civil war could even get close to the damage the invasion could do? Deer would not burn down the orchards or the temple and I doubt he would end up killing more pops than the invasion would.
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For the first part, I think so because these hunters with him are already following Deer against the rest of the council.
From this kind of complete disobedience towards trying to take over when the village "turns against them" which will obviously have happened with the Scapegoat-plan, is a very small step. And I think the likely one, giving the pride and popularism that's been fuelling this.

For the latter, it will likely not be as destructive as the invasion could be, but kill lots of pops, because it will turn relativly civilian crowds against most of our military. in that scenario everything except maybe for a quick and clean victory by Deer will by extremly bloody, due to our generally high combat-morale allowing both sides to suck up losses before breaking.
 
I'd like to point out that it is not certain when or if Deer returns. You last heard from him before the winter and he announced intentions to raid into the areas east of the mountains.
 
Artemis1992 said:
For the first part, I think so because these hunters with him are already following Deer against the rest of the council.
From this kind of complete disobedience towards trying to take over when the village "turns against them" which will obviously have happened with the Scapegoat-plan, is a very small step. And I think the likely one, giving the pride and popularism that's been fuelling this.

For the latter, it will likely not be as destructive as the invasion could be, but kill lots of pops, because it will turn relativly civilian crowds against most of our military. in that scenario everything except maybe for a quick and clean victory by Deer will by extremly bloody, due to our generally high combat-morale allowing both sides to suck up losses before breaking.
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Well, part of my plan/hope is that the hunters will feel a deep shame over leaving the village nearly defenceless, since I presume that a lot of their pride comes from being the defenders of our people.

Also, Deer, unlike the invaders, will actually have to attempt to assault our stone walls, if he wants to win the civil war, which means that civilians would have an advantage over him, plus he only have four hunter units against our two, even if they are the best of them.
 
[X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer

if our civilization does die, hopefully if op makes another civ quest we pick a different route than mandate of heaven.
 
Part of the reason for the negativity is that many people including the vote maker themselves seem to feel like due to poor wording the strategy we discussed was entirely ignored for a strat thats completely asinine and dumb. At least that what I feel like happened, because I was expecting our army to hover around the south for the most part with some adventuring east to see for nearby settlements or trade posts to raid, not to run off to the eastern mountains to never return while all the enemies that we know we have and knew would attack back, surprise surprise attack back. But instead of having an army raiding nearby in the south of maybe a little to the east of the river, they are completely and utterly gone chasing nomads to the much further eastern mountains.
This turned a bad position into a critical one with a chance of lethality, and then the political situation turned a critical one into a critically lethal one.

(time to read the back chat, since i just woke up :p)
 
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Just a harebrained thought, probably better off ignoring it, what would happen if we to deliberately exclude Brushcrest from receiving any reparations if not the other members of the alliance? Blame their betrayal of both their old blood oath and our hunters as part of the reason as to why the hunters are being aggressive, therefore they also share part of the blame, but only the betrayers at Brushcrest. Would serve to drive in how much we value blood oaths, and I very much doubt the other members of the alliance would be willing to die for solely Brushcrest's enrichment, especially as they actually gain by agreeing that Brushcrest gets nothing, what with them getting what might otherwise be Brushcrest's share. Plus they should be fine with just not having their trade caravans raided, and who knows, painting the hunters further as rogue actors means that invader's goals might shift from punishing the raiding people, to ending the actual raiders who were narratively acting against their people's will.

Edit- Probably wishful thinking I know, I acknowledged it as a harebrained thought.
 
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Interesting. Strategic voting might see some changes in this
Adhoc vote count started by Tomcost on Apr 8, 2020 at 2:01 PM, finished with 210 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer
    [X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.
    -[X] Send envoys to any and all White Clans asking for help in defending the White Halls and Greenvalley, in return for us swearing blood debts to later be repaid to all those who aided us in our hour of need.
    [X] Utilizing prior achievements
    -[X] Withdraw behind your walls
    -[X] If the enemy tries to siege, fine. We'll crush them between the walls and the hopefully returning Deer eventually
    -[X] IF the enemy bypasses our main village and its walls and moves towards White Halls attack them in full force
    --[X] Attempt to convince people that the enemy is here to end them, to destroy their temple, burn their orchards and undo all the great achievement since the time of Bear and Wolf.
    [X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.
    [X] The Ancestors demand penance, for the days of blood have come again.
    -[X] Stage 1: there is hope in dispair
    --[X] Send word to the clansmen that the valley is under siege By a substantial force, take any volunteers that will come to the defence.
    --[X] evacuate our population and any food they can carry behind the walls of greenvalley, the elderly will go to the white halls.
    -[X] Stage 2: proving our worth
    --[X] Have our hunters hold the crossing directly, have our mob held in reserve off in the distance camped in the trees incase the enemy get around somewhere and try to take our hunters from behind.
    --[X] chop down some trees for logs, if the enemy is coming up river, toss them from the crossing into the river to clog them up and charge them while they are disorganized. If they come from land or use the crossing, use them as cover for the hunters against arrow fire.
    -[X] Stage 3: Only the worthy die standing
    --[X] if the crossing is lost, those best able and willing to fight retreat to the white halls, those who are not willing to die in the arms of their ancestors will hold up in greenvalley.
    [X] Try to negotiate with the oncoming army.
    -[X]Tell them that the warriors went mad with lust for glory, and foolishly tried to raid the Goat People.
    --[X]Offer to give them whatever was gained by our raids back, and obsidian/azerite as compensation for these that died.
    ---[X]If deemed necessary, make a blood pact that they won't attack brushcrest or the goat nomads as long as they lived.
    [X] Try to negotiate with the oncoming army. (Might cause conflict with Cultural Ideas)
    -[X] claim that the hunters are no longer a part of us but rebels that went against the leaders.
    -[X] welcome the army as guests and offer gifts worth one production and obsidian (they probaly see this as the bribe it is)
    -[X] offer blood oaths not to attack for a generation
    -[X] invite a small delegation to see the city walls(fill them with all hunters and mobs when they do)
    -[X] if that fails offer in the order listed:
    --[X] increase the offer to include the the Azurite, second production as well
    --[X] offer these goods for several turns.
    --[X] blood oaths not to raid for several turns.
    [X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer
    -[X] Tell our people, that this invasion is a clear sign of the folly of disobeying the will and wisdom of the Ancestors. The "Great" Deer has not only provoked this attack, he has also lead many of our strongest warriors astray from their primary purpose of defending The Valley People and the graves of the Ancestors. We could of course still beat them back through the strength of our people and defend White Halls, but it would take a high cost in life.
    -[X] Therefore the Council of Three will seek terms with the invaders, because of the "Great" Deer's disobedience.
    -[X] The Council (or rather their messenger) will seek out the invaders seeking to parlay and negotiation.
    --[X] At the start of negotiation, the Council will explain that they never approved of the raids, but that they will be willing to offer compensation for not stopping them in time.
    ---[X] On the truth of this they will swear Blood Oaths.
    --[X] They will of course start of by giving back any prisoner captured.
    --[X] As compensation they will start with offering them the following:
    ---[X] 1 unit of Obsidian
    ---[X] 1 Production
    --[X] But they are willing to go as far as the following:
    ---[X] 1 unit of Azurite OR another 1 Production
    --[X] If the invaders want more, then the Council will as a last resort be willing to offer send more next year.
    --[X] The Council will promise to not approve of any raids against the Invaders or their current allies for the rest of their live.
    ---[X] On this they will swear Blood Oaths.
    --[X] As for the "Great" Deer, the Council will proclaim that he is no longer welcome amongst The Valley People and he therefore is to become a exile.
    --[X] The punishment for the Great Deer to enter the walls of Greenvalley will be dead.
    ---[X] On this the Council will swear a Blood Oath.
    ---[X] They will also get the remaining hunters to swear Blood Oaths on enforcing this exile with their life.
    -[X] As a fallback they will prepare to defend Greenvalley and White Halls.
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