So where's the equivalency? As far as can be seen, the only benefit of religion is the ability to eat hits to the tribe's stability (which, granted, we see a lot of).
Religion has the advantage of Knowledge storing and such things since even if they don't understand something or reason they will do it, tradition dictates they should do it. Of course once writing comes in it changes to the storer of writings and such.
We had some unfortunate rolls but we mostly succeeded and have yet to fail.
We have waterproofing, tree felling and thus wood as a resource, this provides shelter and protection because wood stands up to threats, it also starts us on our way to better tools, boats to explore much further. We could afford to have a bad roll, it's unfortunate that tempers flared but we did well here.
Therefore I believe the problem was not recognising
[/] The World is our Teacher
-[/] All of our grievances were being worked towards superior solutions.We now have truly waterproof roofing because we paid attention to the rain's effect on the natural loam deposit, our shelters are more sturdy than any has seen and while we fell sick from food we learn more woodlore of our surroundings. Hunger is not new to us, we will be stronger as a result.
To clarify I don't intend for this to dismiss concerns, I want us to realise that the world and each other are not our enemies, we are provided opportunity to thrive and we achieve it, the lands are bountiful.
[X] The World is our Teacher
-[X] Our grievances while true and real are temporary while we have been provided with permanent solutions.
-[X] Loam has provided waterproofing because we paid attention to the rain's effect on a natural deposit.
-[X] Obsidian has provided weapons and now tools and shelter, stronger shelter than any has seen.
-[X] While we have fallen ill we recover and our knowledge of the land grows as everything does.
-[X] We have grown stronger and will not be troubled again by such circumstances.
I think that better illustrates the belief, Growth of Self, the World Provides.
How far were the two groups that were working on tree felling and waterproofing?
Would runners have been viable?
A big part of the problem seems like the rest of the tribe didn't see our progress, we are upset over shelter as a large part of the grievance and we will have it stronger than ever, the warriors want glory and we just invented the obsidian axe, if it can fell a tree it can fell a bear or a man.
Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jun 16, 2018 at 3:04 AM, finished with 359 posts and 20 votes.
[X] That nobody was responsible or accountable for decisions, instead having the whole tribe argue about everything. They needed to have someone or a small group that made decisions in the interest of everyone.
[X] The World is our Teacher
-[X] Our grievances while true and real are temporary while we have been provided with permanent solutions.
-[X] Loam has provided waterproofing because we paid attention to the rain's effect on a natural deposit.
-[X] Obsidian has provided weapons and now tools and shelter, stronger shelter than any has seen.
-[X] While we have fallen ill we recover and our knowledge of the land grows as everything does.
-[X] We have grown stronger and will not be troubled again by such circumstances.
[X] That they had tried to settle down in this valley. The tribe should pack their things and wander the land again as it was meant to do, maybe returning here now and then for the night-stone.
How far were the two groups that were working on tree felling and waterproofing?
Would runners have been viable?
A big part of the problem seems like the rest of the tribe didn't see our progress, we are upset over shelter as a large part of the grievance and we will have it stronger than ever, the warriors want glory and we just invented the obsidian axe, if it can fell a tree it can fell a bear or a man.
[X] That they had tried to settle down in this valley. The tribe should pack their things and wander the land again as it was meant to do, maybe returning here now and then for the night-stone.
[X] That nobody was responsible or accountable for decisions, instead having the whole tribe argue about everything. They needed to have someone or a small group that made decisions in the interest of everyone.
Well.
In terms of practical solutions I'd say we go hunting, try preservation again and start building shelters next turn.
That should solve the immediate issues without harming our longterm-chances much.
For our leadership-issues I have no real idea exept for the desire and intent to utterly ignore religion.
[X] That nobody was responsible or accountable for decisions, instead having the whole tribe argue about everything. They needed to have someone or a small group that made decisions in the interest of everyone.
So where's the equivalency? As far as can be seen, the only benefit of religion is the ability to eat hits to the tribe's stability (which, granted, we see a lot of).
There is no inherent advantage or disadvantage to forming a theistic religion or not right now, beside the particularities of the forming faith, which is what I wanted to express. Since you are far away from writing, beliefs are pretty fluent and a non-deistic belief system is likely to morph into something quite different over time anyway.
See the indo-iranian derived faiths for a belief system that is not rooted in nature spirits or Japanese Shinto for a shamanic based nature faith that survived and evolved right into the modern day.
[X] That nobody was responsible or accountable for decisions, instead having the whole tribe argue about everything. They needed to have someone or a small group that made decisions in the interest of everyone.
[X] The World is our Teacher
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Jun 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, finished with 363 posts and 23 votes.
[X] That nobody was responsible or accountable for decisions, instead having the whole tribe argue about everything. They needed to have someone or a small group that made decisions in the interest of everyone.
[X] The World is our Teacher
-[X] Our grievances while true and real are temporary while we have been provided with permanent solutions.
-[X] Loam has provided waterproofing because we paid attention to the rain's effect on a natural deposit.
-[X] Obsidian has provided weapons and now tools and shelter, stronger shelter than any has seen.
-[X] While we have fallen ill we recover and our knowledge of the land grows as everything does.
-[X] We have grown stronger and will not be troubled again by such circumstances.
[X] That they had tried to settle down in this valley. The tribe should pack their things and wander the land again as it was meant to do, maybe returning here now and then for the night-stone.
It had taken while to sort out the mess enough that everyone was willing to talk with each other again, as opposed to shouting barely coherent accusations at each other. Apparently the whole thing had started with some of the elders complaining about the small rations everyone had to get by on, which prompted the hunters to complain that they hadn't been allowed to hunt or travel ever since encountering the beast. From there on the groups had separated into their corners and the tone of the discussion got a lot less productive. Now that everyone had either calmed down or was to tired to keep up the anger, the tribe had settled around the largest campfire. The groups had been broken up on purpose, everyone agreeing that nothing would be achieved unless they mingled again with each other.
One of the more venerable elders, called Winter-Sun, had stepped forth to oversee this meeting, promising to let everyone say their piece, as long as it was not just an attempt to throw blame at others. He was quite adamant that they all were to blame for letting it come this far. Each choice of the past moons, both the good and the bad, had been made with the whole tribe's agreement, so everyone of them could have voiced their concerns, but didn't. One by one, he called upon the influential members of the tribe, asking them to state their grievances and cutting them off whenever their words became too inflammatory. That caused some more grumbling at first, though it settled down after he made good on his promise and quite directly told one of the other elders to stuff it when we tried to go on a rant about the womenfolk whining about silly things like rain.
The night was already half over by the time that everyone felt his problems had been heard, for towards the end, the people felt confident enough to bring forth even the tiniest and marginal issues. Winter-Sun had let them continue regardless, citing that he was not the one who should judge what was so important that the whole tribe needed to hear it and what was not. At long last though, even those petty things ran out, leaving the whole tribe to silently ponder the things said. After listening to everyone side, many felt that the others had good reasons to demand the things they wanted, even if they did not wholly share their opinions. Some of the speakers, though, clearly cared mostly for themselves, having gone on long speeches for why their needs were more important than those of others, simply for who they were.
As the silence began to break with hushed discussions, Winter-Sun stepped back up and called the tribe down again, their contemplation of what was heard apparently done. "Now that all have heard, how shall we proceed? Choices still need to be made and we can't let everyone have his way or at least not right now. If the whole tribe works to build our new homes, no one will hunt for food. If everyone goes out to gather, fish and hunt, we will have ample to eat, yet most of it will spoil soon enough."
One of the gatherers rose, a young woman who had not found a man yet. "We've made the hunters our leaders during the march and that worked well, even when we didn't agree with their ideas sometimes." Many around the fire nodded, though not nearly as many as when they had first arrived. The new hardships faced here had dispelled the illusion of a land of plenty for many. "And now the hunters mostly follow Wind, because he has good ideas and tries to do the best for them." Another round of nods, especially among the hunters followed. Some even clapped the man in question on the back, who looked rather uncomfortable with the whole attention. He hadn't spoken earlier either, instead asking others among the hunter to speak for themselves.
"So you think we all should heed his words over any other, then?" an elder woman spoke without raising from her seat, earning a reproachful look from Winter-Sun for it. "He still wants to hunt that bloody beast, doesn't he? Why should we follow such a brash boy, who--" Murmurs grew around her and Winter-Sun now raised his hand, motioning her to stop. It looked as if she wanted to go on anyway, though the glares from the tribe at large made her shut up.
The girl, though, chose to ignore the scathing comment and answer anyway. "Because when we asked him to reconsider and brought forth good reasons for it, he did so without complaint. If a single of us should be allowed to make choices for the tribe, isn't that the most important thing? We won't ever find someone who actually knows everything better than all of us, but as long as they listen to the tribe and respect its voices, they will make good choices."
"If I may..." a matron spoke and stood after Winter-Sun's nod. "What if we choose someone though who thinks to know everything better? It's a lot of trust for a single person. Why not have a few more people who work together to make choices? We have always listened to the wisest of the elders, the strongest of the hunters and the most capable of the matrons. Let Wind speak for the hunters and two others for the other groups. Let them argue among each other and come to a choice, then we don't need to trust a single person, but neither have the whole tribe descend to shouting at each other over something either." In response, the girl shrugged and settled back down, not seeing anything wrong with that proposal either, followed shortly by the matron.
A hush went through the tribe as the next speaker rose. After having been quiet the whole night, Wind finally spoke to them. "But have we not always made our choices as a group? As bad as today was, we are sitting around the fire as one again. In the past, we mostly heeded whatever those held in high-esteem hashed out among themselves without having to give any one of them the right to command around others. Why don't we just keep doing it that way, letting anyone who wishes to do so join these gatherings and merely appointing someone to keep them clam and orderly?" With this he gestured to Winter-Sun, followed by murmurs of the gathered people. Many liked the suggestion, while others thought that it was Wind who made it showed all the clearer that he should be the one to lead them all.
Tribal Chiefdom
A single man or woman is appointed by public support to lead a whole tribe and make choices on its behalf. Sometimes such leaders also appoint themselves, either by force or other, less savory means.
Mechanical Effects:
- Decisive Action
This government can freely act against the interests of all factions or groups of the polity.
Tribal Council
In this government, a small group of people, chosen by public support to represent larger factions or groups, make all the choices among themselves.
Mechanical Effects:
- Factionalism
Each faction that is represented in this government gains greater influence and support in the population. Other factions will try to become represented in the government or to oust their rivals from it. The government faces some restrictions on how much it can work against or censure factions represented in it.
- Democratic Choice
If factions are unhappy and their desires not met or actively worked against, they might be able to force the government to certain actions or prevent others.
Tribal Democracy
The tribe as whole makes choices and every member has the right to speak. Some provisions are in place to make sure that these gatherings are orderly and that every voice receives the same weight.
Mechanical Effects:
- Faction Influence
Since everyone can affect policy in this government, all factions can influence the choices of the polity. The government has trouble to act against the interests of the most influential factions and it is very difficult to censure them.
- Democratic Choice
If factions are unhappy and their desires not met or actively worked against, they might be able to force the government to certain actions or prevent others.
With the discussion winding down, what did the tribe decide?
[] [Government] There should be one of them who is responsible to make choices for the whole tribe. (Government becomes Tribal Chiefdom)
[] [Government] Each of the three groups should name someone to speak in their name and hash out decisions for everyone. (Government becomes Tribal Council)
[] [Government] This night has shown that the tribe can make choices just fine on its own. Name someone to oversee discussions to prevent strife, but let the group decide as before. (Government becomes Tribal Democracy)
[] [Government] Write-In
What will the tribe focus on during the next turn of the moon?
Available Actions: 3
Food Situation: Mostly Stable (Gathering, Fishing)
Reserves: None
Time until winter: 2 moons
Available Actions
Sustenance:
[] [Action] Go hunting.
-[] In the valley.
-[] In the mountains.
-[] Write-In
[] [Action] The small forest critters exist in great numbers, but are hard to catch. Try to catch them with traps.
[] [Action] Put more effort into gathering to create a stockpile.
[] [Action] Put more effort into fishing to create a stockpile. Unavailable, due to lacking preservation techniques.
[] [Action] Look into replicating the methods to preserve food you have heard about from other tribes.
Resources:
[] [Action] Make new tools from the strange stones for the entire tribe. (Bonus to Gathering efficiency.)
[] [Action] Try to learn more about the wood you can now gather and look for useful things to make from it.
[] [Action] Investigate the mountains if you can find other useful things.
Construction:
[] [Action] Your tents are ill suited for this places weather. Begin making more sturdy and permanent homes. (Takes 3 Actions total, can be spread out over multiple turns.)
Other:
[] [Action] The spirits have shown their hand again. Try to find ways to appease them.
[] [Action] Explore your surroundings further.
-[] Follow the river into the valleys.
-[] Go towards the sunset.
-[] Explore the mountains.
-[] Write-In
AN: To be clear on that, I'm perfectly fine with a complete Write-In government, as long as they are sufficiently simple for an actual tribe to come up with. Otherwise this option is mostly there to change specifics, like the number and groups of the council or to mandate that the chieftain must have advisers from the other two groups.
Democratic Choice can go as far as to alter voted upon plans by the way, if the factions are all angry enough or something unforeseen happens, though usually you will loose actions up-front to their demands. This mirrors the effects of a failing state for more authoritative forms of government.
[] [Action] Go hunting.
-[] In the valley.
[] [Action] Look into replicating the methods to preserve food you have heard about from other tribes.
[] [Action] Your tents are ill suited for this places weather. Begin making more sturdy and permanent homes. (Takes 3 Actions total, can be spread out over multiple turns.)
I am not one for politics, not even simple, tribal ones.
But I just wanted to point out that we need to have preservation, shelter and some food that has been preserved within the next 6 actions.
At the same time these actions above also start fullfilling the primary desires of our three factions.
Let them rule as they will, but please let them come to these decisions.
[x] [Government] This night has shown that the tribe can make choices just fine on its own. Name someone to oversee discussions to prevent strife, but let the group decide as before. (Government becomes Tribal Democracy)
[x] [Action] The small forest critters exist in great numbers, but are hard to catch. Try to catch them with traps.
[x] [Action] Make new tools from the strange stones for the entire tribe. (Bonus to Gathering efficiency.)
[x] [Action] Your tents are ill suited for this places weather. Begin making more sturdy and permanent homes. (Takes 3 Actions total, can be spread out over multiple turns.)
However note that a mountain valley is one of the settings where Tribal Democracy actually DOES work until we got imperialist or something.
This is prewriting anyway, so things change a lot.
[X] [Government] This night has shown that the tribe can make choices just fine on its own. Name someone to oversee discussions to prevent strife, but let the group decide as before. (Government becomes Tribal Democracy)
[X] [Action] Your tents are ill suited for this places weather. Begin making more sturdy and permanent homes. (Takes 3 Actions total, can be spread out over multiple turns.)
[X] [Action] Look into replicating the methods to preserve food you have heard about from other tribes.
[X] [Action] Put more effort into gathering to create a stockpile.
Anyway we have the construction method. Now we need the homes and a food store.
Mind you that democratic governments always have scaling issues and tend to evolve into oligarchies when the polity is growing. Something more closer to home then Empire Building you might want to consider is how to later accomondate small satellite villages in your immediate vicinity.
Usually if such a vote came up I'd just burn some fresh spreadsheets and call three times @Azel's name and then let him handle the issue.
Seems wrong not to do that here.
Maybe call Diomedon? He (or she?) seemed like a decent second in that area.
[X] [Government] There should be one of them who is responsible to make choices for the whole tribe. (Government becomes Tribal Chiefdom)
[] [Government] Duarchy Tribal Chiefdom
-[] Two heads are better than one with more decisive decisions compared to a council or everyone, Two shall convene to guide the tribe.
@Azel hows the Duarchy sound? Idk how else to put it
